What the fuck was wizards thinking when they unbanned this but banned Leovold?

Ghave

I never said that it was the best way win with it, just a way. i just thought about my decks and if I were to slot it into one of them. In my hazezon deck it would be easy to win the way I described.

which is why it was unbanned.

It can be used to make degenerate infinite combo decks (Mostly WBG, Karador Boonweaver style decks, or BUG, because that color needed to become stronger), and it can be used as a high value creature for non combo decks like getting out lots of high value recursion and etb triggers. You decide this when you make the deck.

Karador was going to win with Boonweaver, now it wins with Hulk instead (or both), BUG was going to win with T&N Palinchron Dead-eye, some other 2 creature combo, or an early entomb reanimate. Now it can choose one more broken creature to add to the "I win" list.

Honestly, it's still not stronger than Food Chain.

And fuck Leovold, anyone who thought he was fine is flat out retarded. There's a HUGE difference between having an I-win card and having a hatebear that also wins the game if it sticks on the board for one turn, ALWAYS available in your command zone.

ban defense of the heart

I'm not too happy with green getting another "oops suck on the evilest thing I can pull out of my deck" card either but Leovold was a commander for dog-rapists and I'm glad he's gone.

>1 turn delayed trigger
>only does anything if others play into it

The upside is great if you get it off, but your opponents are retards if they let you. Great way to force a boardwipe.

Not even remotely ban worthy.

As in dogs who rapists or rapists who rape dogs?

dogs who rape other dogs

Yes.

>bolt
>in EDH

I'm happy with this unbanning, but only because I'm going to shove one in my Ruric Thar deck and just use him as a strong, 7 mana two for one. Probably gonna get acidic slime and a mana dork most of the time desu.

>he doesn't play spot removal in edh, so he gets dicked by leovold windfall

What I don't get is why notion thief is fine but leovold is not. Obviously notion thief can't be your commander, but if anything this is even more of a reason to bring back banned as commander list

What's wrong with Hulk? He's pure EDH funstuff. Huge cost, big body, dumps a bunch of your favorite critters all over the field when he dies. He can't be your Commander so pulling him is a crapshoot and EDH being what it is resolving a 7 mana creature is no mean feat. Who the fuck aims to go infinite in EDH anyway?

>Obviously notion thief can't be your commander

It sounds like you understand exactly why notion thief is fine.

>flash in notion theif
>your opponent plays consecrated sphinx
>you die at your draw step

That and notion thief only draws you one fucking card.

>I was a Leovold Doomsday man
My
fuckin'
nigga.
Leovold Doomsday was my first tuned competitive deck. I got to play it in one tournament, then he got banned. Good night sweet prince. I guess I'll have to switch to Tasshole.

so if this is the reasoning you are going with, then why ban any "I win" creature? By your logic, primeval titan, sylvan primordial, griselbrand, emrakul, etc. are all fine to be unbanned because players would just use some other win condition to win anyway. The main problem with protean hulk is that it is a 1 card combo. You play it and you win. you don't even need the sac outlet in play like you do with boonweaver. All of the "I win" scenarios you listed are usually interruptible by a single removal spell, but not hulk (outside of exile effects).

You are the exact reason this card got unbanned. The rules committee assumes that every player is like you and won't search out a game ending combo, when in reality that's all Hulk is good for.
Also check'd

I'm going to end exactly the same way that the Flash Hulk deck did: Disciple of the Vault.

Grab Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder and Ornithopter, bring back Hulk, grab Reveillark and Disciple, loop Ornithopter.

Can you explain to me how protean hulk instantly wins you the game "without needing a sac outlet like boonweaver giant"

Hell, you don't even need to leave BG.
Hulk dies, find Viscera Seer and Phyrexian Delver, Delver reanimates Hulk. Sac Hulk to Seer, Hulk finds Mikaeus the Unhallowed and Walking Ballista. Remove counters and sac Ballista to kill table.

ok, then ban him as a commander. There is no reason that there cannot be two ban lists, and it was a retarded change that only hurts the format. Ok, so some effects are too good if you always have them available, just change that. Leovold is definitely worse in the 99 than notion thief.

because creatures die, thats how the game works. Yes, as I said if somebody has swords, merciless eviction, anguished unmaking, etc. you don't win. But otherwise, your protean hulk will eventually die and you will win

Griselbrand would likely only be banned as a commander if they still did that.

Emrakul, and to a lesser degree, Titan and Primordial, dominate the entire game. The game becomes "who can abuse me the most?" and basically all other gameplans are thrown out the window.

Hulk is very similar to Academy Rector. It dies and you can likely end the game. You have to build your deck around it, though.

I don't know about that. You can slam Leovold down whenever and the enemy can't get rid of him without giving you a card and can't target any of your other stuff until they've gotten rid of him, and you're stifling any extra draws they have in the works. Notion Thief is better when it catches the enemy by surprise but Leovold WILL draw you at least one card unless he gets countered.

>There is no reason that there cannot be two ban lists
The answer that the RC will give for this is to "streamline" things, which is fucking retarded because any idiot can understand having a banned as commander list. We had it for a long time and nobody had any problems with it.
The real reason, the one they gloss over and won't elaborate on, is because MTGO is so shittily programmed that their EDH game mode can't handle two ban lists.

wraths are much more prevalent in edh than in formats like legacy, and they don't give the leovold player any cards

Whooooooooooo caaaaaaaaaares.

EDH is what I do for casual fun. The ban list is irrelevant.

I don't think you really understand edh if you think you can just play prot hulk without a sac outlet and expect the game to be all locked up. You have ~3 opponents who instantly know what they have to do, and every single deck is running someway of preventing that from working

It's not just exile but also bounce, or tuck effects. And beyond that there's also stifle effects, also they can just wait for it to die and kill your combo with a normal kill spell

>EDH is what I do for casual fun.
Good for you. But when the format receives official packaged product from WOTC, and has side events at GPs and PTQs, there needs to be some kind of regulation.

It's not irrelevant if you go play at a shop or event. The banlist matters.

You can't sit down at a table and pull out your personal banlist. Then spend 10 minutes editing all your decks until everyone is happy. The RC unfortunately matters.

hulk combo isn't broken up by a kill spell. And yeah, its probably only a little stronger than boonweaver giant, but I still think that matters enough for it to stay banned

And yet that's different than "primeval titan, sylvan primordial, griselbrand, emrakul", who all basically win when they hit the field. You can respond to Hulk unless they've got a sac outlet (and you can still respond to the sac outlet in all colors except black). You can't really respond to Emrakul and Primeval Titan landing on the field causes a tremendous spike.

I think griselbrand is much stronger in the 99 where you can entomb/buried alive/discard him for early reanimation. And how are 1-card combos like tooth and nail, boonweaver giant, and protean hulk not just "who can abuse me the most?" You resolve those cards and you win. You don't even need to build your deck around it since most of the combo pieces (sac outlet, karmic guide and reveillark) are good enough to warrant including in your deck to begin with. The only duds are the 1 mana ways to kill people, I think mogg fanatic or disciple + 0 mana artifact.

It depends on the group. I would never dream of anyone in my group pulling out a boonweaver combo. The worst we have is one guy who shoves winter orb into every single deck and plays narset. Just a wing shards here, a stranglehold there, combined with the fact he gets hated out every single game means even thats not too bad.

Also, since when has t b h been corrected to desu?

unlike boonweaver giant, I believe even if you kill the sac outlet (most likely viscera seer) it doesn't matter. you also can't respond if they are using flash, which is entirely possible since all the best tutors are legal in edh. I would argue that primeval titan is much less impactful than protean hulk, you can kill primeval titan in response to the etb and then they get only two lands. There is a reason that primeval titan is fine in duel commander but protean hulk is still banned.

>Also, since when has t b h been corrected to desu?
Since 2015.
baka desu senpai how long have you been gone

It's not even a good card. Try it. Try to get it killed. It's useless.

If you kill their sac outlet before hulk responds, they can't exactly sac it.
And sure they can Flash it in but that's just typical UGx shenanigans, it's not like this one extra option for them is doing anything special.
And duel commander's banlist is fucking retarded.

How does the game end?

oops, looks like I win on turn 1

(me)
>before hulk resolves*
You get what I meant anyway.

They banned Leovold because he kills everyone before and more consistently than Protean Hulk. The fact that you can have him as a commander, and that he can ruin the game with any draw-seven makes him much more degenerate.

When he dies, he can spit out all the pieces of an instant-speed infinite combo. Several combos, actually.

oh so if I draw that card, and drag hulk too, and then have a specific number of cards for a win con too then I can win. OH TOTALLY BROKEN THEN!

Fuck off. Hyperbolic bullshit.

You'd also need one of the legal moxen, mana crypt, or a spirit guide. And it's hardly the only turn 1 victory if you have all of that.

yes, in edh where fucking vampiric tutor, demonic tutor, imperial seal, mystical tutor, etc. are all legal it is very hard to assemble two specific cards from your deck.

>a combo so good it's banned in legacy and restricted in vintage
>hyperbolic
How's the tuning of your precon going, Timmy?

I'm going to assume you never played legacy while flash-hulk was legal, because you would realize its not "typical UGx shenanigans," its a two mana, two card combo that wins the game immediately through any amount of removal.

Awww pooor baby. You're going to be afflicted by a menial unban now in a casual format. boo hoo

It's a lot stronger in Legacy/Vintage than a singleton format you faggots.

>Casual format bans
>crying about timmies

top rosewater

>so good its banned in legacy and restricted in vintage
protean hulk is not why those cards were banned asshole

you know what else isn't legal in legacy? demonic tutor or any of the other broken tutors. It is trivial to assemble flash+hulk in edh

>Casual format
>format with DCI sanctioned tournaments
Pick one, faggot. You can stick to your kitchen table trash decks if you want, but some of us can have fun and be competitive at the same time.

Find me a single legacy Flash combo that didn't involve Hulk and was semi-playable.

Leovold SHOULD have been banned.

implying some fucking shit-eating xmage play knows better than wizards

oh, so it was just a coincidence that flash was banned not long after protean hulk was printed and flash-hulk completely dominated the metagame?

>I know better than Wizards

But you don't. stop crying about bans
we agree and we can move on now?

Flash was banned long before Protean Hulk you shit-eating moron. Stop posting.

Literally hiding this thread its so whiny.

>dissension released may 5th, 2006
>flash banned in legacy june 2007

what did he mean by this?

What combo are you suggesting? It depends on the color combo but many different hulk combos can be broken by a kill spell

wizards isn't in charge of the banlist, friend, its some shit-eating faggot called sheldon that bans anything he deems unfun or hurts his fee-fees

that being said, leovold probably deserved to go, but hulk certainly did not need to come off

Wizards is in charge of Wizards' banlist. Notice: Wizards' banlist has not updated, Protean Hulk is still banned, Leovold is still unbanned.

I'm pretty sure the typical viscera seer/karmic guide/reveillark cannot be stopped by a kill spell

>b-b-but Commander is a serious format
>isn't at all

ahhh, so Wizards doesn't know what its doing
and some fucking brony on Veeky Forums does GOT IT

>Wizards isn't in charge of the banlist

Go back to Infowars, faggot.

Sheldon is in no way associated with wizards, other then playing the game and making a format they eventual recognized.

>b-b-but Commander is a serious format

well, they do have prized commander pods at GPs and such. some people like playing with good cards and not random draft chaff

typical pol frog faggot

BAN DEADEYE

>doesn't believe my conspiracy shit about Wizards
>lol everyone else is crazy

They're literally making fun of you on Xmage right now.

I've been here longer than that, i just dont use the word often

Just admit you're wrong, you underage masturbator

>>Also, since when has t b h been corrected to desu?
Since some nameless cuck in charge of Veeky Forums got traded in for some greedy chink

Flash Hulk was banned because it had the ability to oops i win turn 0, and was consistent turn 1.

Why was protean hulk unbanned again?

It was Sundering Titan we wanted off the banlist

Play arbiter or geist or some permission.dec. If they wont let you have fun no one else gets to have fun either.

Green needed an alternative to Defense of the Heart, you see.

What the fuck is going through your head
>leovold deck
>t1 mana vault sol ring golgari signet command tower leovold
>t2 time twister
leovold deserved to be banned, it is everything the fun police love and everything fun hates. even in competitive commander this is unfun and unfair.
protean hulk? the only deck that has the potential to fully utilize this card is decks like karador and atraxa. everything else will just get value off it.

>It was Sundering Titan we wanted off the banlist
I hope you die in a fire

Why can't they ban combinations of cards, instead of cards alone.
Like you can make a deck with either Teferi's Puzzle Box, and another with Leovold, but you can't make a deck with both cards in it.
>Do this FOR ALL THE BROKEN COMBOS
AHAHAHAHAH

And ban all mana rocks with cmc of 1 or less