MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - 「 T H U R S D A Y ' S C H I L D 」

Thanks. That's how I thought it worked, but wasn't sure.
In another similar example, let's say I use strionic resonator to double quietus spike's ability - in a commander setting, of course. They were at 40 health, took one damage, and then triggered the spike. When does the ability 'see' their hp? That is, would they lose 19 life twice, or 19 and then 10?

It checks their life total as it resolves. They'd lose half of 39, rounded up (so 19.5 rounded up to 20) and go to 19, then the original trigger would drop them for half of 19 rounded up (so 9.5 rounded to 10), putting them at 9 life.

Ah, I forgot which way it rounded. Thanks again.

Does as foretold allow you to play cards you target with snapcaster for free? I'm just wondering if giving the card flashback has any strange interaction here

When does a "whenever x attacks" effect actually take place? After attackers are declared? After blockers are assigned? After combat resolves?

It does not. As Foretold sets up an alternate cost you can pay (0, specifically). Flashback is also an alternate cost, and you can't pay two alternate costs.

It triggers when the creature is declared as an attacker, and the trigger will go onto the stack and resolve in that step, after attacks but before blocks.

Immediately after you declare the creature as an attacker, still within the declare attackers phase and will be placed on the stack before your opponent has priority

Step, not phase.

Yes, I knew that sounded wrong, mybad

'salright!

Phases can have steps, but not the other way around. The turn has 5 phases: Beginning Phase (Untap, Upkeep, and Draw steps, in that order), Precombat Main Phase (no steps), Combat Phase (Beginning of Combat, Declare Attackers, Declare Blockers, Combat Damage, End of Combat, in that order), Postcombat Main Phase (no steps), and Ending Phase (End Step and Cleanup Step, in that order)

ty I am not good at card game

Every question you ask makes you a better player, so fire away, friend

Is entwine (specifically asking about tooth and nail) an activated ability? could I counter or prevent it with pithing needle or squelch?

Entwine is an additional cost, not an activated or triggered ability. It can't be countered.

A lot about this comment in the EDH general sounds wrong.
>Also, learn the rulings of Yasova back and forth, because people don't know them. She targets a creature with less power. Your opponent has a chance to boost that creature up so you can't steal it. Then you pay mana. If your opponent does anything to their creature's power at that point it doesn't matter. It's yours.

Yasova requires the payment of mana before being able to target any creature, correct?

so, aside from straight hard countering, are there any ways to effectively stop tooth and nail from going off?

Yeah, additional cost, not an activated ability.
Preventing a player from searching his library or not allowing creatures to enter if not cast (Hallowed moonlight)

Stop them from searching their library limits them, I guess?

It's sort of right. Yasova has an intervening if clause, which is wonky in the rules.

Grafdigger's Cage, Hallowed Moonlight, Containment Priest.

Yasova's intervening if just pertains to the available targets though.

Target creature with less power, if the creature gets bigger, fizzle.

But I don't see how this stops the needing to pay the 3 mana to ever put the ability on the stack

Grafdigger's does nothing, the cards enter from hand, technically

Grafdigger's cage actually won't stop Tooth&Nail because the cards go from library to hand and then hand to battlefield. Even if the physical action may be library to battlefield, the stop in the hand in rules text means it gets around cage.

Derp, you're right.

I was thinking GSZ/NO, I play more Legacy than anything else.

Don't worry, easy mistake.

I'm actually going to let gA handle this. Because just by reading the oracle text, it sounds like the intervening if is "did you pay the cost?" Which makes no sense.

EDH general found rulings in regards to Yasova in case anyone was following along, and I still find it strange.

blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2015/02/yasova-dragonclaw-pays-for-the-trigger-only-on-resolution/

That is very strange. But I'm going to trust them without a more recent counterexample.

It's really not that weird.

Intervening-if triggers check at trigger time and on resolution to see if their condition is met.

Triggers that ask you to make a payment always do so when they resolve.

This is just both of those things.

Also, the Judge Blog is the final word on rulings. Unless the rules get changed, that's the ruling.

Everyone starts somewhere. By asking, you learn.

Entwine is not an activated ability, it's a static ability of a modal spell. An activated ability will always be worded as COST : EFFECT. Off the top of my head, exactly one non-permanent spell has an activated ability.

Targets are chosen as soon as the ability goes on the stack. You pay mana (or not) as the ability RESOLVES. If you target a 3/x with Yasova, and they Giant Growth it, it will be an illegal target, but you can just not pay at that point. If they wait to see whether or not you're going to pay, it's too late to respond.

Nevermore naming it, Hallowed Moonlight/Banisher Priest to exile the creatures, Mindlock Orb/Shadow of Doubt/Aven Mindcensor to limit the search.

Actually, the Judge Blog isn't 'final word' on anything. It's just us helping people understand rulings. This isn't Yugioh, where a "ruling" from a judge determines how something works- the RULES determine how something works. A ruling is just us interpreting the rules, not the other way around.

Technically the 'final word' on things is an [O] answer, but we only break those out for confusing things.

>Technically the 'final word' on things is an [O] answer, but we only break those out for confusing things.

An [O] answer?

Basically, sometimes there's things that the rules or Policy docs aren't really clear on, and we can't agree what the answer is. We turn to the senior judges who SHAPE the policy, and they discuss it, and based on the situation and the philosophy of our rules, they'll issue an Official answer on the situation. These answers are tagged [O] on Judge Apps (and before that, were tagged as such on the MAILING LISTS), so an [O] Answer is just an Official answer from the most senior of the program.

Do you know of an example off-hand?

Also:
>This isn't Yugioh, where a "ruling" from a judge determines how something works

Thank god. I still get chills from the random as fuck IGS call.

A recent example would be the senior judges saying that (prior to Amonkhet's update of the combat shortcut), if AP wanted priority to act in their Beginning of Combat step, they had to explicitly state exactly why (IE, "I'm going to cast Cauldron Dance" or "I'm going to resolve my Toolcraft Exemplar trigger, then use it to crew this vehicle").

And then the judges made a new shortcut because wizards told them "beginning of combat triggers are gonna be a thing we do more of".

But yeah. Very glad this isn't YGO. Sick and tired of that shit.

Technically we didn't make shit. The shortcut is in the MTR, and that's a WOTC document.

Is the communication guide part of MTR?

Yep! Section 4.2.

Do you normally ask local stores to pay you for judging prereleases/small PTQs?

The volunteer judges in my hometown got together and started demanding $35/hour to work them...

I would not recommend working for free to any judge, whether you're compensated in product, cash, food, a pay raise as a store employee, or some combination.

Huh. Good to know.

But yeah, having set tournament rules that aren't draconian as fuck are a godsend. Take, for example, the rules lawyer's best friend: the Irreperable Game State.
>Player A commits a minor game play error (plays a card with an illegal target, discards too many cards to an effect, picks up something they shouldn't have, etc.)
>Player B sees the infraction and calls a judge.
>Judge comes over and examines for overt intent to cheat. if none is found, the game is rewound right before the infraction occurred.
>If the game cannot be rewound to that moment due to game circumstances (a player's deck or graveyard order has changed, it's impossible to tell what cards should be in a player's hand or other zone, etc) the the game state is Irreperable.
>Player A, having committed the error, gets a game loss because they can't undo the rule-break.

I do. Not to be a dick, but judging is skilled labor, and my time is worth money. I don't work for free.

That said, 35 dollars an hour is ridiculous. Usually for FNM or Prereleases, which I could run while asleep, I just ask for free entry into the event, and a meal. For something that needs more focus, or that I can't play in because it's a Premier Event, I usually charge a flat fee- but the most I charge is in the neighborhood of 150 dollars plus travel expenses for an all-day PPTQ. 35 dollars an hour is just ludicrous.

But yeah, as I tell all my new judges: Never work for free. It devalues not only your labor, but the labor of all the other judges. If you work for free, you teach the TO that he can get something for nothing.

That is babytown frolics. It works the same in Magic up to the "irreparable game state" part. If we can't rewind, and none of our partial fixes apply, we just issue a Warning, tut-tut the offending player, and move on.

Lord, if I had to give a Game Loss every time I couldn't rewind a GRV, tournaments would be over in 4 hours.

Oh it gets worse. If you're a good enough actor, you can "bank" the IGS and call them on it later once you're SURE the game state is irreparable. All you need is to be able to say "sorry I just now noticed" with a straight face.

Reposting because the last thread is gone:
I have Metallurgic Summonings and I cast Yahenni's Expertise.
MS triggers and resolves giving me a 4/4 token.
YE resolves, giving everything -3/-3 til EOT, and I choose to cast Catalog, triggering MS again.
Catalog resolves, drawing 2 and discarding Fiery Temper, triggering madness.
After Catalog resolves, I put MS and madness triggers get put on the stack. I put MS over madness.
MS trigger resolves, giving me a 3/3, then madness trigger resolves.
I choose to cast FT for madness, triggering MS again. MS trigger resolves giving me a 3/3, and finally FT resolves.
When the stack is empty, I'm left with 2 3/3's and a 4/4 with -3/-3 til EOT.

Do I have that all correct?

Every time I think I can't possibly lose more respect for YGO's judge program and organized play, I'm proven wrong.

I mean, if you're "good enough" at acting with Magic, you can pretend you didn't notice their GRV until later, but there's zero reward and you risk getting DQed for it.

MOSTLY right. You cast Catalog as part of resolving Expertise, but it doesn't just insta-resolve. Catalog is cast, then you finish resolving Expertise (which in this case is just 'put it in the graveyard'), then MS's trigger from Catalog is put on the stack ABOVE Catalog. That trigger resolves and makes a 3/3. Then Catalog resolves, you draw 2, discard Fiery Temper, which triggers Madness. You cast it via Madness, trigger MS and get a 3/3, then Fiery Temper domes the target for 3.

End result: 4/4 that is a 1/1 until end of turn and two 3/3s. You have the end result right, just mixed up the middle a little.

Yeah. And if you're shit at acting then it's a double game loss for the attempted fraud (IGS for them, cheating for you) - so if you're up a game you only risk breaker math by holding it.

So with Archfiend of Ifnir, if I discard my hand of 5 cards I put 5 -1/-1 counters on all my opponents creatures, right?

I'm sorry, fraud is a GAME LOSS in this shitfire of a game? Not "Get out of my tournament", but just a Game Loss?

So I get the token before resolving Catalog still, that's good to know, thanks gA! Expertise's are weird.

Yep! If you discard several cards at once, it'll trigger for each. Technically, you'll put one -1/-1 counter on your opponent's creatures, 5 times, rather than putting 5 on at once.

Yeah- they let you CAST the spell at a weird time (during the resolution of another spell), but those spells still go onto the stack as normal. They can't resolve until Expertise is done, SBAs are checked, triggers are put on the stack, etc.

Not bribery, not theft, not aggressive behavior. Those are the 3 DQ offenses, and you can't DQ anyone for anything else.

Jesus fucking christ.

This is why I left the game 2 years ago.

Magic may not be perfect but it's so much better than that shit.

Anyway, actual policy question: how do you appeal a floor judge without sounding like a dick?

Wait for them to finish giving their full ruling, and then just politely say "I'd like to appeal to the Head Judge". As long as you're not being a combative dick about it, nobody will THINK you're a dick.

Hell, I've had players appeal with something like "I'm like 99% sure you're right, but if you're right I lose this game, so I'd like to appeal", which is totally understandable.

Worth noting that an "attacks and isn't blocked" trigger has to wait for blockers to be declared.

Most judges will be okay with that? I would expec them to take it as an insult.

Judges aren't perfect.
I've miscalled, GA's miscalled, every judge who's not so wet behind the ears that you could tap them for U has miscalled.

We can force defenders with spells correct? A friend of mine tried to tell me I couldn't use prey upon on my cariyatid 2/5 to kill one of his creatures cause it had defender and couldn't attack. I tried to explain that attacking demands I tap or declare attackers which I hadn't. I played prey upon to force it to fight.

Do it politely instead of YOU'RE WRONG, I DEMAND ANOTHER RULING FROM NOT SCRUB JUDGES!!!

Fight != attack. A thing with defender can absolutely fight another creature.

Judges are human. We can make mistakes. There's a reason that the rules have a built-in system to allow you to request a ruling from the most senior judge in the room.

Some judges do take it as an insult. They are not very good judges.

Now, if you interrupt me before I'm done giving my ruling, or you immediately ask what level I am, or are generally a dickhead I'll take it like an insult, because at that point it is one. But politely requesting to exercise your right to appeal is nothing to be insulted by, so feel free to use it!

The only judge who hasn't punted a call that cost someone a game, hasn't done so -yet-.

Fighting is not attacking. Prey Upon makes two creatures deal damage equal to their power to each other. It's not "Attacking" or "blocking", it's not combat, and combat-oriented abilities (Defender, Flying, Trample, First Strike, etc) have absolutely no bearing on it.

Things that just care about DAMAGE (Wither, Infect, Protection, Lifelink, Deathtouch, etc) will care, though. If you use Prey Upon on a 2/5 with Defender, it will absolutely fight whatever thing you tell it to fight, Defender be damned.

Hello, not a rules question but I'm hoping to draw on experience from you veterans.

I have a magic collection. I want to part with it.

I know there's going to be a couple GP near me over the next few months. Can you generally get good card prices there? Or am I better off going to a local store to sell my collection?

For reference I'm in the Denver area, so I'm looking at the Denver GP in Aug and the Omaha GP in June as possibles.

Selling your collection is going to be tough. Mostly all a vendor is going to be interested in is stuff that they can actually sell, so the bulk of your commons and uncommons they're EXTREMELY unlikely to take at a Vendor Table, because then they'd have to haul it all back to their shop (or to the next event). They'll buy your rares and stuff, but expect at most ~60% of the cash value for your stuff.

Selling it as a collection is 'easier', but will take longer and you'll likely not get a lot for it.

Can a player cast instant speed spells or abilities at any point during their opponents turn whenever they please or is it a step thing? What i mean is, if a player imprints a Silence on Isochron Scepter can they essentially never let you cast spells for the rest of the game?

I also have problems understanding targeting when it comes to Hexproof. What happens if the creature was already targeted before it gained Hexproof? Protection saves it from damage, destruction and targeting but Hexproof simply protects it from targeting, so what happens here?

Sorry for the noobish questions

I have pic related, and I flip it face up immediately after I flip it face down. Can I get a second trigger this upkeep? Is it still 'the beggining' of my upkeep? Is it the same ability, or an identical ability?

First, there's no such thing as 'speed'.

Second, you can cast Instants or spells with Flash, and activate activated abilities (most anyway- things like Equip have built-in timing restrictions) any time you have priority. That's how Magic works- the player with priority is the one who can take actions, and priority goes around in turn order starting with the Active Player - the player whose turn it is.

In the Silence situation, your earliest chance to use it is during your opponent's upkeep, after they pass priority to you to try and move to the Draw Step. They can still cast Instants before they pass to you, or in response to your activation. There's no way for you to completely lock them out of ANY chance to cast spells with just a Silence on a Stick.

For targeting, if the target BECOMES illegal between being selected and resolution (for example, "I cast Hapatra's Mark in response to Never"), the spell will 'fizzle'. It'll try to resolve, have no legal target, and be countered by the rules of the game.

And don't be sorry! Everyone starts somewhere- usually from damn near 0. Asking is how you learn. Never be afraid to learn.

Turn, not flip; flip is a whole other thing.

And no, you can't. All "at the beginning of..." triggers fire as that step BEGINS, before priority happens. By the time you have priority to take the special action of turning your face-down creature face-up, we're past that point (doubly so, since it's face-down because you resolved a trigger). Giving it new triggers won't make them fire, because it's past the point for them to do so. It'd be like playing a second Impact Tremors AFTER you play a creature, and wanting it to retroactively trigger.

How about if I just brought valuable cards? I'm just wondering if the vendors at big events are known for fair prices or not.

In regards to your first question, you need to look up "priority." You can cast an instant when you have priority.

If a creature gains hexproof after being declared the target of a spell it is no longer a valid target. If all instances of targets chosen by the spell are invalid then the spell fissiles. So for instance if a spell said "Do 2 damage to target creature, do 2 damage to target player," and they targeted you and your creature, and then you gave your creature hexproof then the creature would no longer be a valid target, but you still would be (not all targets have been invalidated, so the spell still resolves), so you would be dealt 2 dmg. If instead the spell said "Do 2 damage to target creature, all opponents lose 2 life" then the spell would fissile when you made your creature hexproof because the one and only instance of targeting on the spell got negated.

Danke

If you just wanna offload your big guns, a GP is a great place. There's several vendors on site, and all are willing to discuss prices before the transaction. So you can sit down at one vendor, get prices, and thank them, then move to the next one, see what they offer. If it's low, tell them what the previous vendor offered. Move on to next vendor, repeat. Once you've got the best offers you're gonna get, sit with that vendor and sell the stuff. That's how I went from "I'll give you 550 credit" to "I'll take it for 700 cash" with my foil Mind Sculptor a few years back- I just circled the GP and told each vendor what the current highest offer was to see if they'd top it.

Bitte!

Appreciate the insight. I'll start separating my stuff out.

>For targeting, if the target BECOMES illegal between being selected and resolution (for example, "I cast Hapatra's Mark in response to Never"), the spell will 'fizzle'. It'll try to resolve, have no legal target, and be countered by the rules of the game.
If it becomes an illegal target, then becomes a legal target again before whatever's targeting it resolves, then the spell or ability doesn't fizzle, correct?

Right, I worded that poorly.

If it becomes illegal, but then becomes legal again, all between spell cast and spell resolve, all is well- that's just not super common.

If the previously-legal target of a spell or ability is illegal as that spell or ability resolves, nothing happens to it. If it was the sole target, the spell "fizzles"- the game rules counter it and NONE of its effects happen. If the spell or ability had other targets, and they're still legal, the spell resolves doing all it can, and just skips whatever was supposed to be done to any illegal targets.

Savvy?

Yeah, just making sure.

I'm fairly new to the game and I'm confused.
Does this card gets its counter before declaring blockers and applying damage? And do the counters stay on it after the turn is over?

If for example it attacks alone, would it inflict 4 damage and then becoming a 4/4 until the next attack?

The trigger fires when it attacks, so it'll go on the stack and resolve well before blocks are declared. The counters stay indefinitely, because that's the default for counters. If you swung with Raiders alone, you'd swing as a 3/3, trigger, get a counter, and do 4 damage. Next turn, you'd swing as a 4/4, trigger, get a counter, and do 5 damage, etc.

Does the spell or ability have to specifically target something else to keep it from being countered in that instance? For example, if a creature is targeted by Mercy Killing and in response the creature is given protection from white by Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, the creature's controller doesn't get a bunch of free tokens because the only target of Mercy Killing became untargetable before it resolved?

If all targets of a targeted spell or ability are illegal as it goes to resolve, the whole thing is countered by the rules of the game and none of the effects happen.

If someone makes the sole target of Mercy Killing illegal in response to Mercy Killing, the WHOLE SPELL is countered, and none of its effects happen. The creature's controller won't sac it, and they won't get Elves, because the spell didn't resolve.

Thanks!

thank you

If I declare Chandra's Spitfire as an attacker, then my opponent declares a 4 toughness blocker, I get priority after his blocker is declared and can Lightning Strike that opponent before combat resolves, right? So the Spitfire attacks as a 4/3 (instead of 1/3) and the blocker is destroyed if my opponent has no other instants or abilities to play before combat resolves?

To be clear I would be targeting the player with Lightning Strike, not the blocker

Correct, and correct. You'd Strike him, he takes 3, Spitfire triggers, and is a 4/3. It would kill the blocker.

>pack is short
Assuming my LGS owner is a tight ass, would he be able to go back to wizards and claim that one of his packs was faulty? There's no way in hell he'd give up a pack for that otherwise.

Theoretically, yes, but I don't know that they'd do much of anything about it.

Personally, if I explained this issue to a TO and they started throwing a fit over 4 dollars, I would pay for the replacement pack out of pocket and permanently add that TO to my blacklist.

Also, it is now late, and I am going to bed. Later, y'all!

Will mtgo ever be good?

When you're judging and playing in an event, say an FNM, what do you do? Just take judge calls? Do you let the TO take results and do pairings? And if you do get a call, do you just excuse yourself from your opponent and give your match an extra few minutes?

Knowing my luck, if I pulled that trick the 3rd vendor would go "well now it's 400 credit and we've all agreed to not give you a penny more"

Personal experience, most stores will ask judges to not play FNM specifically for this reason. But I would assume that if you get a judge call you excuse yourself, give an answer asap, and return to play.

It helps if you're playing a very fast deck that wins matches 10-15 minutes into the round.

Well, I'd personally not be playing in the event per se. I'd have a casual side game going, let my opponent know in advance "Hey, I'm gonna be called away. A lot.", and just walk away from my game when called or I have to do judge things. Of if it was a big event, just have another judge or a friend on hand to chatter with between judge stuff.
If I did want to play in the event, I'd call up another local judge beforehand so they'd be judging instead of me. I'd also wear a tee instead of my nice dress shirt, so it was clear I was there informally.

What happens when I play Approach The Second Sun from exile via Gonti, Lord of Luxury?