Were the Jedi Masters: Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, and Kavar right in there Judgment about the Jedi Exile? Personally...

Were the Jedi Masters: Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, and Kavar right in there Judgment about the Jedi Exile? Personally, I believe they were right, Since the Jedi Exile was Sith all but in name. She's a wound in the force, as she killed she grew more powerful. She went to fight in the war, disobeying the Jedi council. What she did in Malachor was inexcusable. She could have been the death of the Force. And finally, she was also an Apprentice to Darth Traya whose action led to the Jedi Master's death.

No.

Jedi are always harping on about "muh balance" and "muh light side".

Well guess what you can't have both. Light without the darkness is not balance. And the force could not have been destroyed. Perhaps the nature of the force would change, but is that not the very nature of a living thing such as the force?

All jedi are wrong, save for those few who have realized what balance truly is and that dark =/= evil, like that old guy in he first game who incidentally was the best character.

>that old guy
Jolly Dindu

REEEE THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS
balance is not the dark side and the light being equal. balance is the force. the dark side is an unnatural perversion, that destroys the balance of the universe simply by its existence.

...

Since we're already here, anyone mind answering some questions? I originally posed them to a friend of mine, but he's too busy to give be a answer.

1.) How does one become a wound in the force? My understanding is that becouse the Exile has force bonds with so many people who've died at M5 they're reserving echos of the pain and suffering that a occurred there through those bonds. I envision bonds as wiring that power and information travel through btw.

2.) Did Revan plan for this to happen? Again my understanding is that the Mandolorian war was set up in such a way as to defin Jedi to their force "conscience" so to speak by defining them to the pain and suffering brought on by what I can only describe as Star Wars Vietnam. This this weakness and their Devotion to Revan was what allowed him to convert them into sith correct?

3.) What does being a wound allow you to do? The Exile seems to be able to cannibalize the force essence of those he slays, this is how they fluff the exp system. He can also form bonds very easily and can syphon force sensitivity off of those he's bonded to, and bend them to his will. Is the later just inborn? Is the former just him forming bonds with those he defeats and the force wound bit is somthing else?

4.) At some point in the game Kriea mentions how the exile was able to do what he did becouse he was afried. I understand from a writing point of view this is subverting our expectations of the protagonist. But im still not sure what she means by this.

1/2

5.) The true sith is just a metaphor for our inner demons, the jedi teachings surround the true sith and protect you from it by denying contact, prohibiting internal conflict. The flaw of the jedi teachings though is that when that shell cracks and you are faced with the true sith, you don’t know what to do and fall pray to it very easily. You need to face the true sith, confront it and truly reject it to be immune to the sway of the darkside. This all ties into Kriea's philosophy that conflict and adversity create strength.

That all sounds about right to you? If so I'm not sure just where the exile encountered his true sith. I'd imagine M5, but how could he of Fallen to the darkside there? Wasn't he plagued by essentially the ghosts of his friends and comrades? He cut himself off from the force becouse he couldn't take the psychological trauma correct?

6.) The exile cutting himself off from the force was like blinding himself so he didn't have to look at the horrors of M5? He never becomes unblinded, but for some reason he can still form bonds and can feel the force vicariously through them. Using it to "see" like echolocation?

7.) For some reason his connection to his force conscience became stronger after he blinded himself? Somthing about not needing to listen past the static and just being in a silent room with a whisper. This is why he went to face trial and didn't join Revan?

Is it time to post it again? Sounds like it is!

You cannot "Kill" the Force. FFS Traya was insane by that point in her life, go replay the game plz.

newfag detected, KotOR has, and always will be, Veeky Forums related. It was built on the d20 engine, after all.

1) Basically. Strong force bonds getting broken on one end caused the Exile to become a wound in the force.

2) Yes. Revan was a cunning little shit.

3) Yes. His talents naturally allowed him to form bonds easily, and being a Wound allows him/her to weaponize it to an extent. It's an excuse to meta the XP system.

4) The Exile feared Death, and so when confronted with Immeasurable Pain, chose to break their force connection rather than face that end.

5) Interesting theory. But the True Sith were a real, physical threat out there beyond the Outer Rim. TOR fucked that up though, so...

6) The Exile did not fall there. They became only Force Blind, and did so in order to survive the psychic trauma of the Mass Shadow Generator. A strong mental connection to Kreia (or perhaps just a sign that one cannot be truly blind to the Force) enables you to relearn over the course of the game.

7) Also interesting, but the Exile also went back because they weren't connected to the Force any longer, and so were not seduce-able to Revan's side in that way any longer. Hell, it's hinted that Revan didn't even like them!

You are like the jedis of the Council. You don't understand why Exile have gone out to war and you don't understand why he returned. Hell, you can tell it directly to the Council in the game when Exile remembers how he was cast out.

t. a buttmad jedi

That question is impossible to answer in its current state since KOTOR2 permits choice. You can be a complete Saint and only be in disagreement with the Council over the war, or you can be a comically evil asshole with a ship full of people you corrupted to be equally evil but who still gathered the masters out of pragmatism. Your question would have notably different answers dependent on what your idea of "The Exile" is.

>Orthadox Jedi Council being right about anything

Yeah, no. These are the idiots that would sit with their thumbs up their asses, meditating for a perfect solution while worlds burned and countless millions died. Fuck them and their arrogance right to their deserved grave.

Jolle Bindo. And yeah, he was right.

KotOR has always been just a bad excuse to shitpost about "muh grey".

>1.)Wounds in the Force were created whenever a massive loss of life occurred. All life in the galaxy was interconnected and when a significant number of lives were suddenly ended, the Force sustained a localized injury much like a sentient who had lost a limb. The epicenter of the wound became a dark place, filled with the reverberating echoes of the pain, terror, and suffering of the life forms who had lost their lives.

2.)Revan Planned everything from beginning to end. Darth Malak Betrayal screwed everything up. Kreia states the Mandalorian wars were a series of Massacres which hid another war; a war of Conversion. The Jedi Civil war was a War of Ideology.

3.)Being a wound in the force is something akin to being a parasite. Your relations can either be symbiotic or parasitic.The Jedi masters take note of this in the Dantooine.

4.)The Exile lost her connection because she intentionally turned away from the Force, cut herself off. Kreia claims it was because she was afraid, and that's certainly what's implied. She was terrified of the death and destruction caused by her command, and she severed her own connection so she could deafen herself to the echo of Malachor.
Every other Jedi at the battle were either corrupted (turned to the Dark Side, per Revan's master plan) or were flatly killed by Malachor's echo.

5.)I always got the feeling the True Sith were always going to be a more Philosophical Enemies not like the MMORPG. It would have tied in nicely with what Kreia was teaching and it would have also explained why the Sith were more Subtle in their efforts as the Disciple noted.

6.)Apparently, the shock of so much death on Malachor V was such a massive trauma that she couldn't endure it and she sub-consciously, as a defense mechanism, shut herself off from the force. At least, that's what I've got from playing through the game and reading up on it at various places.

>gray

Nah. I just play my Jedi like emotionally mature and stable adults capable of critical thinking. It's the fedoras that start brain-seeping about "gray jedi."

>6.)Apparently, the shock of so much death on Malachor V was such a massive trauma that she couldn't endure it and she sub-consciously, as a defense mechanism, shut herself off from the force. At least, that's what I've got from playing through the game and reading up on it at various places.
I think Kreia implies that technically any Jedi could have done it. If they had the guts to drop the Force.

You can't kill the Force. KotOR and its progeny continued the failure that was the prequel trilogy by insisting on turning the mystical esotericism of the Force in the original trilogy into a dissected science. KotOR was a fun game, but KotOR2 was babby's first 2deep4u philosophy and really had no business being in the Star Wars universe.

Also, this stupid fucking western notion of balance being the middle of the road between the light and the dark side needs to go and stay go. A car isn't functioning in balance when it's halfway between working and broken. A piano's tuning isn't in balance when half the strings are out of tune. You don't reach enlightenment by meditating under the bodhi tree for half the fucking day.

I mad.

That's nice, not sure what it's got to do with KotOR threads just being excuses to shitpost.

Three shitposts. And the rest of the thread is answers to Op reasoning and questions

Can you point out the shitposts?

>She's a wound in the force, as she killed she grew more powerful.
That's not exactly what they were describing.
Pretty much everything the Exile did made her more powerful. The more she experienced, the more she saw, the more connections she made, it all contributed to her power.
She was made powerful because she would invariably create force bonds with everyone and everything she came in contact with.
In laymen's terms: Her ability to gain Experience Points was canon to the setting.

Even without killing a single thing, just going around the world solving problems in the most Jedi way would make her more powerful.

I think they were right just because she's a war criminal, the mystical bullshit is academic.

She's not really a war criminal though.
All Jedi were citizens of the Republic, and the Republic asked for their help.
The Jedi Council forbid it, but it's not like the Jedi Council is an entirely independent military power that can deny its members their right as a Republic citizen to stand up and defend their way of life and their fellow citizens.

Haven't you heard user. The jedi are collectivist

...not really what I was talking about. I might be wrong here, it's been more than a little while since I really got into the lore, but didn't Revan choose the forces to attack Malachor V based on loyalty? Namely that the people he chose to attack it were of questionable loyalty to his cause.

The Exile caused a huge loss of life, and if had been just the Mandalorian's, whatever legitimate military target etc. etc.

But she killed how many of her own soldiers?

Woman was a monster, at least then.

I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure the entire setup for that was that there was "Something" on Malachor V to begin with. Some sort of potential super-weapon that never got much in terms of detail, and it was actually that very weapon that Bao-Dur (Who's name I'm 70% sure I just misspelled) rigged to cause the planet to crack in the first place.

It was a immense loss of life, but it was the sort of "We either get this done, or we lose the war" kind of battle, at least as far as what Revan told them went.

Would a character like Revan be considered an obnoxious character for someone to play in a tabletop RPG?

Maybe, I just went off the Wookiepedia article for a refresher.

She was either a war criminal or the person who made the hardest right decision in the Galaxy.

That's a bit of a gap.

Depends on which period of his life.

This, basically. From pre-KOTOR 2 -> TOR he really runs the gamut personality wise.

>KOTOR 2
What the fuck am I even posting anymore.

The dark side is a natural part of the living force. You don't have to like it, but you can't deny it.

mortis arc says the force is just the force.
Light is the force.
Dark is the force.
But people fucking with the dark side are bad juju.
That is why palpatine and others show physical signs of corruption. It's unnatural to bend the force to your will, which is what Sith do.
Ideally a Jedi should act in harmony with the Force, i.e. do what comes naturally.
The entire PT is about how they lost their way though and only Luke finally gets it again.

Does this look like the face of corruption.

Aside from what said, which is true: Not neccessarily.
Like almost all things in TTRPGs, it depends on how you do it.

With his type of character, if you let your actions speak for themselves, and don't start to monologue about your reasons for doing things unless someone asks (be it a PC or NPC), you're fine.

That actually goes for most characters.
Paladins only piss people off when they start berating the Bard for telling tales full of lies for the sake of coin, instead of recounting the inspiring tale of Sir Soandso who defended the Pass at the Castle of Whogivesafuck.

I mean user. If it wasn't for sir Soandso and his defense at Castle Whogivesafuck the realm would have capitulate to the Dark Lord.
Its a tale worth telling

THANK YOU

The Light Side IS the side of the Force in balance. The Dark Side is the side of the Force Imbalanced.

Oh really now? You know what else is a tale worth telling?
Sir Soandso would never have stood on that battlefield if his father hadn't hid his mighty wyrm in Soandso's mothers' cavern of woes.
Should that have not taken place, the realm would have also been lost surely, so how' bout I sing a song of that faithful night?

No, but this does.

All the CG in those movies and they couldn't have given him a better face?

He was attacked by the jedi extremists who plotted against the republic by starting the clone wars.

I'm pretty sure you couldn't really do better than that. Nothing says withered and deformed better than a face like a vivisected Oyster left out in the sun for a fortnight.

This. For the last fucking time. The dark side IS imbalance. Its not fucking yin and yang, dark side is corrupted chi.

you are just asking for another special edition of the first films, aren't you?

Grandmaster Yoda was trying to save the Republic by starting the Clone Wars.

Granted, that a COMPLETELY FUCK STUPID decision for him to make, but still...

Hey op have you tried not paying attention to material written by Chris "I'm an overrated shit who hates star wars" Avellone?

Not him, but a complete strip of the Lucas prequels and rebuild would be wonderful.

> It's unnatural to bend the force to your will, which is what Sith do.
But the very way of sapient live is to bend universe to their will. That's how it evolves and carves a place for itself. That is the most natural thing to do - use laws and powers within universe for your own benefit and through that to benefit your species in the long run.

>So then Yoda starts a war to save friends

As amusing as their dumb bullshit is, the idea of giving George Lucas more money makes me vomit blood.

I'm kidding.

Mostly

And light side is stagnation.

That is horseshit and completely unsupported by the cannon. Please, for your own health, take the Sith penis out of mouth and cease drinking Dark Side semen.

yeah. and using the dark side is breaking those rules.
Don't argue with me about it, it's George Lucas' final word on the matter. Just watch the Mortis Arc.
I mean he flip flopped on it, and disney seems to be going for a more literal black and white approach judging by the force awakends (or they just don't give a fuck about it)

You mean like how Sith first almost destroyed Republic through using only shitty drones and then got into position of power by using Clone Army?

Both capabilities existed for a long time but Jedi Order never even considered the possibility that someone may use them.

did you even watch the movies?

Mortis arc is not canon

I don't... understand how this relates to my statement.

of course it is. TCW is as much canon as the movies.
Word of God from Disney. They made a list of what is and isn't canon when they announced a unified canon.

What he is clumsily attempting to convey is that the Jedi Order, at the time of the Clone Wars, was ripe for exploitation by a crafty Mastermind due to having been in a state of Peace for so long.

Conflict breeds competence.

What he is claiming, however, is that the light side of the force itself is what breeds stagnation instead of the organization that existed at the time of the Clone Wars, which while adhering to the light side, is still a separate entity.

Light Side always stagnates and then faces a massive threat. They aren't proactive at all.

Look at Palpatine. He managed to set up a fucking OPPOSING EMPIRE while manipulating others. His major contribution , force wise, was that he managed to cloud the precog shit for the council and they made no attempt to stop it. They just sat there and waiting while sending their masters to their deaths.

The Light side stays stagnant till it's collapse while the Sith advances till it falls in on itself.

Grey Jedi are the only ones that actually work out.

No, TCW is canon

mortis arc is not canon

What

please show me where they cherry picked the episodes...

That's complete bullshit.

Some things in the show are canon

Mortis arc is not canon

I don't have it saved but Mortis arc is not canon

>What he is claiming, however, is that the light side of the force itself is what breeds stagnation instead of the organization that existed at the time of the Clone Wars, which while adhering to the light side, is still a separate entity.
I agree that's true that it is more a fault of organization than light side itself. But the basic tenets of most light side organizations were encouraging such end result.

Each time jedis were pulled into war they were somewhat getting their shit together but then everything was going back and sometimes even got worse. And in the end you get well meaning people who can't do the work that their order supposedly must do.

>Grey Jedi
Opinion discarded.

The closest thing I can find to support the claim is a reddit post claiming it was a shared force vision and that the whole thing was metaphorical.

>But the basic tenets of most light side organizations were encouraging such end result.

That is a result of continually adhering to the teachings of Jedi of old. The organization never learns from itself.

This is not the fault of the light side like you keep seeming to claim.

Ah, I see. My bad, I didn't get the leap.
The Light Side and the Jedi Order are not synonymous. The Jedi Order attempts to serve the Light Side, but were hamstrung by their submission to the Republic.

Your argument only makes sense if you take the Jedi Council as it appeared in the Prequel Trilogy as the only incarnation of the Jedi Council that ever existed. You'll see no argument from me that their passivity and reluctance to act was a massive help to Palpatine in engineering their downfall, but the incarnations of the Order before the Ruussan Reformation were plenty proactive. The Army of the Light? The Jedi Shadows? The Jedi Watchmen? Lot's of proactiv-ity there.

>I don't have it saved but Mortis arc is not canon
how convenient.
Every press release I found mentions the series as a whole, the wook has the mortis arc listed as canon and wikipedia never heard of this either.

So I'm calling bullshit.

So what 5000+ years of jedi order is all the fault whoever the fuck was at the beginning? While the galaxy changed around them jedis always tried to stay the same.

Only with Luke in old canon it got somewhat better.

She didn't imply user. She stated it.

Seems pretty clear cut. TCW is canon.

I think user is saying that while TCW is canon, that arc isn't, though I can't find anything official that says this.

But that's idiotic. George lucas worked on that arc briefly

I get he's saying that, my point was that the timeline comes with no disclaimers saying ''The Clone Wars, but only SOME of it, yeah?''.

Dunno what to tell you dude, that's just what I've read this other user say.

We know it's idiotic, that's why we're roasting the dude who said it.

I never understood why the jedi masters made the accusation that she was a sith.

Because on the whole the game isn't super well written?

Or maybe the masters were trying to shift the blame onto her

The canon is entirely inconsistent between the works that actually examine the force. You only get a definitive statement on what the force is outside of the work itself, from the stupid mouth of Lucas.

The masters were afraid of her and what she represented.

I like KOTOR 2, don't get me wrong I like it more than KOTOR 1 if we're being honest with each other , but I have a hard time believing that was the writers intent.

I've always figured that to them Exile joined Revan and therefore she was a sith. They were unwilling to move past that prejudice and what she did and was damned forever to them.

If that's the case... I mean it works. It isn't perfect, but it works as a plot device to get shit rolling.

I'm pretty sure Palpatine gave the order to attack on Geonosis.

Of course they were afraid. The jedi exile was corrupting the jedi teachings

Tell me how this has anything to do with Traditional Games and why it doesn't belong in /v/. We all like KOTOR but it doesn't belong here.

Morality system and d20

>morality system
Has nothing inherently to do with traditional games and this thread isn't about that system.

>d20
You may have a point if this thread was about KOTOR's mechanics. It's not. It's about the plot of a videogame.

Lore discussion are Veeky Forums, especially SW since it has quite a lot of traditional games.
Yes, it's quite a large field of discussion.

... I would LOVE a source on that, because if that's true, it takes a huge amount of the guilt for the Jedi's downfall off Yoda and puts it back on Palps.

I'm big on reminding people who bitch and moan that the Jedi deserved to fall that, y'know, an Evil Sith Lord running around fucking shit up was the real reason everything was so shitty all the time, but ''Yoda started the Clone Wars'' is an argument that I've always had to concede, because purely from the substance of the movies, that's what appears to happen.

>Jedi Exile
>She

I didn't know jedi were discriminating on people's force beliefs

I thought Malachor V was a sacred planet to the Madolorians, and its destruction was meant to break their spirit.

Revan was canonically a man and the Exile was canonically a women. until the Mouse decanonized them both

>Grey Jedi are the only ones that actually work out.
You can't be a Jedi if you don't follow the tenets of the Jedi Order

...What?