A fine universe with good amount of handcrafted lore just so happens to have retarded philosophy as a base

>makes an entire character who often argues devil's advocate with you to push a revolutionary idea of "perhaps not being a retard requires thinking for yourself once in a while"

I feel you seem to have forgotten a rather important point: Kreia lies. Like, Kreia lies A LOT. She's just very, very good at it, often mixes in a seed of truth, and is the game's primary source of exposition, so the fact that she lies A LOT can be missed or forgotten.

But it's still a fundamental part of KotOR II, as fundamental as "don't open it" is to a certain other game.

Eh...

Well, yeah, I'll basically agree with you, BUT with a caveat: the first KotOR has a better ending than KotOR II. I understand that KotOR II was rushed to completion and the ending we got wasn't the intended one, but that doesn't change the ending that we did actually get being extremely rushed.

yup

I never understoood why Darth Sion Loved a Female Exile

because through all the pain she endured she was still able to thrive and become even more powerful. sion was a slave to his pain as it was the only thing keeping him alive

>Revan understood snacks

>Mandalore walks by
>"maybe you want some pretzels"
>T-shaped visor scan the extended snack with implied disdain
>"pretzels are weak"
>"don't be fucking ridiculous Canderous"
>"Revan understood snacks"
>"I can perfectly well remember him eating pretzels back on Dantooine"
>he takes of his helmet
>"WEAK"

The entire point of the Force is that the light side is objectively natural and the dark side is objectively a twisted perversion of the natural order. Fucking "muh balance, muh grey Jedi" fags are the reason everyone hates kotor.

No.

Jedi are always harping on about "muh balance" and "muh light side".

Well guess what you can't have both. Light without the darkness is not balance. And the force could not have been destroyed. Perhaps the nature of the force would change, but is that not the very nature of a living thing such as the force?

All jedi are wrong, save for those few who have realized what balance truly is and that dark =/= evil, like that old guy in he first game who incidentally was the best character.

But don't you get it, user?

If you ignore the laws of a universe in order to try and force an attempt at moral ambiguity, then you're doing a brilliant deconstruction!

Fuck if it's well worked or sensible within context! The best way to write a story for a setting is to try and push as much of your own philosophical beliefs as possible and make the rest of the game suffer for it. With any luck, people who think they're very clever for understanding overt moral ramblings will ignore the more setting-appropriate morally grey spots that other parts of the setting have offered up.

Because the light side is balance. Granted, the Jedi are dogmatic and wrong in some aspects, but it doesn't change the fact that usage of the light side is simply using the Force according to its own "will", where dark siders literally subjugate and manipulate it. It's essentially the difference between beseeching a god for aid and beating the god into submission until it blesses you.

See Dark doesn't mean dark, it means discord. Light doesn't mean light, it means balance.

>t.shadow the sithlord

Reminder that the destruction of the Sith brought balance to the Force and anyone who acts like you need both to have a harmonious universe is deluding themselves and ignoring the statements from both people within the movies(the ultimate arbiters of canon) and Lucas.

>inb4 "Lucas"
If your only answer to something in a setting you don't like is to try and quasi-retcon it, you're not being creative enough.

Good writers even made things like age limits on Jedi and medichlorians bearable.

Wrong. The original Jedi code acknowledged that the Dark Side is an innate part of life. Balance is reining in those impulses and controlling them. Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force.

>wrong

You mean right,

"Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:

"[...] Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties"

>"muh light side".

I defy you to find a single instance of a Jedi uttering the phrase "light side" in the Original or Prequel trilogy.

Lucas' version of things is that there is the Force, and the Dark Side is simply a name for an imbalance in it, like a cancer.

>The original Jedi code acknowledged that the Dark Side is an innate part of life

The Dark Side isn't simple emotion or chaos. It's indulgence in those things. Balance is recognition of the need for restriction; the Sith teach indulgence.

KotOR2 and Kreia are good to people that don't particularly like Star Wars, ie people without shit taste

KotOR2 and Kreia are bad to people that really like basic bitch muh objective light and dark XD Star Wars, ie manchildren

I know this is b8, but come on.
>this character is good to people that don't like the series
Then maybe she shouldn't be in the fucking series.

I agree, they made the mistake of making something slightly more complex than manchild level good vs evil in the wrong setting, Kreia would fit better in a setting that isn't shit

It's not good vs evil so as it is "shit people vs not shit people". Sith are emotionally the equivalent of NEETs. Self centered, self-destructive, and yet somehow incredibly self righteous.

I actually agree with you there. Kreia isn't a bad character because she's actually bad (albeit a little edgy), it's just that she's objectively wrong within the context of Star Wars.

Kreia is fine, the problem is all the people sucking off Chris Avallone's 2deep4u mouthpiece.

She has opinions on how the force is. Her opinions don't line up with how the force actually is, but that's what happens when you're a crotchety old sith that got pissed your apprentices turned on you.

I would dare to say Kreia is a good character because she is wrong while making sense. A well argued philosophy can still be wrong.

The original code is about going beyond those impulses. In a way, both versions are actually saying the same thing from a certain point of view.

In Star Wars games I've run, a recurring Sith name is Darth Rahu. In Vedic mythology, Rahu is a demon who represents uncontrolled growth or expansion without wisdom or understanding. I stumbled across the name when Wiki-surfing, and have since loved it as a Sith name.

Mind, it's also probably responsible for the fact that when I need Sith names, I break the mold and go to Indo-Iranian languages rather than Greek or Latin the way Star Wars traditionally does - Rahu, Mainyu, Kali, Akoman, Zarich, and so on.

That better Kali as in the demon and not Kali as in the goddess, because she's scary but ultimately not a baddie.

It's Kali as in "Kali Ma Shakti De", as in I'm a huge Indiana Jones fan and really don't care much about the details beyond that.

om namah shivaya om namah shivaya om namah shivaya om namah shivaya ...

That's sad because Kreia and Kali might just be one and the same......
YE-HA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>Well guess what you can't have both. Light without the darkness is not balance.

Yes you can you fucking retard- that's the core of Taoism, which is what the force was inspired by.

The light side is "balance" and the dark side is "imbalance" in the same way a healthy body is "balanced" and fucking AIDS inside the body is "imbalance". The dark side The light side represents the force in general, while the dark side is a cancer that infects the force and makes it unhealthy.

So saying that you can't have the light side without dark is like saying you can't have a healthy body without deadly germs in it. Ergo you're a faggot who doesn't understand the concepts you're trying to argue about.

The Force is just the Force, period. It is neither Light nor Dark .

It gives life and it brings death. As a Sith, you bend it to your will. As a Jedi, you let it flow through you. As a Knight of Zakuul or Imperial Knight, it's your reward for your service, your conviction.

Both Jedi and the Sith just take their own views of the Force to opposite extremes. The Force is always in balance, as it's not a dichotomy of black and white. It's simply grey... It simply is.

However, you could argue that there are, in fact, two polar opposites and that the Force is the eternal conflict between life and death made manifest. But you can't have one without the other: The light gets too powerful? Two Sith bring down the entire galaxy in a day. The dark is about to envelop everything? No problem, a single Jedi will make sure to stop the Two right in their tracks, only to fall during the Darth Jadus' uprising.
Both poles rise and fall in an endless cycle. In my opinion, the Force achieved perfect balance during the time period in between the Second Great Schism and the Seventh Battle of Ruusan. Only during the Great Hyperspace War and the genocide of the Sith was briefly interrupted, but it quickly returned to its balanced state as the Vitiate rebuilt the Sith Empire in secret on Dromund Kaas.

Only when someone does something massively retarded as the Exile on Malachor or the Sith Emperor on Nathema and Ziost, it's when the Force gets wonky. Destroying or consuming entire planets, be it through Force rituals or WMDs, are effective ways to tear the fabric of the Force.

muh star wars purity bs

pay autists no mind. 2 trumps 1 in almost every way

/v/ hates everything. Stop going there.

/v/irgins love trolling. shitting on Obsidian is easy (You)s

Kotor 2 was so good, there will never be a SW game as great.

Hell, Chris Avellone will probably never something again.

>these fucking arguments again

THE FORCE IS NOT TAOISM. DARKSIDE/LIGHT SIDE IS NOT YIN/YANG. YIN/YANG IS NOT GOOD/EVIL ANYWAY, YOU FUCKING RETARDS.

THE DARKSIDE *IS* DISRUPTION IN THE HARMONY OF THE FORCE. IT'S ABUSING THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS FOR PERSONAL GAIN. THE DARKSIDE IS INHERENTLY UNNATURAL AND HARMFUL. YOU FUCKING RETARDS.

ALSO AVELLONE'S WRITING WAS FINE BUT IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR HE HATED STAR WARS AND KREIA WAS A FUCKING ONE SIDED MOUTH PIECE FOR HIM. STOP SUCKING HIS COCK.

You understand Star Wars perfectly, but have a serious misunderstanding of Taoism.

All I Know the Jedi masters were Correct about the Exile and the sentence they were about to make.

youtube.com/watch?v=3EtByaOxiwE

They give perfect valid Reason as to why they need to do and then lo and behold the Exile's new master a Sith Lord I mind you comes in and Kills them. Rendering the Jedi Order Extinct.

>All I Know the Jedi masters were Correct

Then you know nothing. If the Exile got cut off from the force and closed the hole, then nothing would have stood in the way of Nihilus.

Their arrogance and lack of wisdom would have doomed the galaxy (again)

>is like saying you can't have a healthy body without deadly germs in it

Uh...I mean, everyone has e. coli germs in their body, they form a natural part of our digestive system and exist in symbosis with us. But if they leave the digestive system and infect other parts of the body, you have a bad time. Ditto other bacteria.

I do understand your metaphor, I've just got too much of an understanding of biology for it work. Your point isn't otherwise wrong, though.

She doesn't kill them.

She does to them what they were about to do to you. All three of them, at once. Yeah, she's good.

And being cut off from the force kills them. They've spent so long leaning on it, relying on it, using it in their every word and action until it's not even a second thought, that having it taken from the literally kills them. Critical existence failure.

And she only did to them what they were going to do to you...

They died because they were old as fuck and the Force was the only thing keeping them alive, sever force is hardly lethal to a healthy person.

"Look, we're ONLY removing one of your kidneys, you're a healthy person, you've got a spare."

>retarded philosophy
The Force is a living thing. Like all living things, it has needs.
The Force likes the Jedi. They are sweet, brave, kind and gentle. They're Nice Guys, always hovering around her, declaring their courtly love, not asking for anything at all in return. Into a pedestal she goes, pure and untouched, until she can't take it anymore.
The Sith are assholes. They take what they want, ask not what she likes, leave her bleeding and bruised. But at least she gets some action.
But she always goes back to the Jedi in the end. They are, after all, kind and brave. If only they'd stop masturbating over her and put it in already.

>Define in your words what exactly the "core philosophy" of the Star Wars universe (or at the least, the force) is.
muh good and evil

I didn't say it was healthy or desirable, just that it wasn't a lethal act in itself.

For one as limited as you, perhaps. To have fallen so far and learned nothing, that is your failure.

The force is supposed to be in balance, it's chaos and order, yin and yang.

Strictly following either side is doomed to failure which is shown by the constant conflict in the Star Wars universe.

Whenever the Jedi or Sith gain too much power the other side is empowered to defeat them, because the force is constantly attempting to balance itself.

The cycle would only end if either you had dark and light side users co-existing in one system and balancing the force, or one order that follows both.

Atleast that's what the better writing in the Star Wars universe points to, the rest is boring shit, or fun adventures.

Because the game dickrides Kreia and forces you into impossible choices for it. That homeless guy on Nar Shadaa is a perfect example. You have no option other than to be super charitable or super violent, and Kreia will call you a bitch either way.

Literally a good 70% of the things you do in this game, Kreia will bitch at you. If you take either option for romance, you get bitched at. If you take thirty seconds to help a random person, you get bitched at. If you bitch at someone else, you get bitched at. If you build your character and don't want to waste skill points on shit you'll never use, she'll bitch at you over that too.

Kreia is literally unpleasable. If you make what seems like a reasonable decision that may pay off later, the circumstances wrap around in the most bizarre ways to make her right. If you get locked into a retarded binary decision, you get treated like a fucking chump. If you talk with any of the party members in a way that's not on her terms, that's also a bitch session the moment you try to tune your crystal or take a prestige class because the game forces you to deal with her for basic things.

Yes Obsidian, in an ideal world your character wouldn't be dealing nothing but crazy people and situations that are this loaded, but YOU were the ones who loaded the situations and characters to begin with. Pointing out how crazy and wacky it is isn't cute.

>"don't open it"
I am legit sad that so few games feel like they have this effect in the players anymore.

Literally anyone who played that game through, knows the "don't open it" meme, because if the gamr did such a good job of making that impression on you.

Similarly, KOTOR2 did such a good job screwing with you, that pretty much anyone who played it through, will know that Kreia is lying bastard #1. And the fact that it even managed to convince some players that she was RIGHT, is outright amazing. Because it shows that, despite the game telling the player that she was talking bullshit the entire time, the players still choose to believe an imaginary person who screwed with you for the entire game.

For me, the best part was KNOWING she is a lying snake, and playing the game again, with more or less the same choices, and spotting all the bullshit. It engages you in an entirely different way, than Modern Shooting Gallery Game #525 would have done, Spec ops the line notwithstanding.

I have tried using this kind of character several times, but it just never works. You really have to appreciate how difficult it is to pull this sort of thing off.

What is the "don't open it" game?

Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines
great game, even Veeky Forums recommended, you should play it.

but seriously don't open it

> Long explanation from the jedi
> "But you haven't see the shit I saw, man! You didn't feeeel enough! There is... like suffering and shit out there!"
> Might makes right.
She basically said nothing.

I never knew this game causes so much butthurt among spergs until I discovered rpgcodex and Veeky Forums. You don't have to agree with Kreia, neither the game makes her be morally or objectively right. I also don't remember where all this "light vs dark" shit comes from, her central argument is Force causes endless suffering by making users dependant on it and clouding their common sense. Did you retards even play the game you shitpost so much about?

Say what you want, Kreia was kinda wrong because she was an entitled asshole

>No you can't help others unless you gain something from it
>No you can't do good because you're doing what others want
>But i want to help others, i don't care
>No you must not unless you gain something from it

Same thing with being evil

What did you expect? It's Veeky Forums, we'll argue about everything.
The game being an unfinished mess pre restauration mod didn't help.
However, I like it very much, and as villains go, the Sith lords were pretty amazing (especially Scion if you play a female exile).

Living or Cosmic?

Let's be honest here, if you do good or bad things in Kotor, it's mainly to put the karma-meter where you want it to be and reap those sweet ultimate powers. The game encourages you to go in one direction or another. You kick puppies just because that's evil, and since you're evil you do evil things.
Same thing with Mass Effect. There is no point in giving a paragon answer in a renegade run, and vice versa.

The only recent rpg with decent moral choices was Alpha Protocol.

>There is no point in giving a paragon answer in a renegade run, and vice versa.
Counterpoint: Paragonshep going Renegade during Rannoch. I dare you to tell me it doesn't feel good to punch that admiral in the gut after getting back from the dreadnaught he opened fire on while you were still on it. And then telling them that you're through saving their asses after taking out the reaper.

Interrupts are a bit of a special thing because you don't have a paragon alternative. It's more of a bonus mini-scene.
For a classical dialogue tree, the equivalent would give you two neutral options, a Good option with awesome immediate consequences and no lasting effect, and no Evil option, each one easily identifiable (For an Evil character; reverse the choices for a Good playthrough)
A fairly rare case.

ME II managed to involve me in the decisions I took once, when I refused to stab the mechanic repairing the gunship during the Archangel mission, and Garrus lost half his face as a result. Then I reloaded, and realized that his jaw still flew to the other end of the room, and the only difference was the size of the shield bar on the gunship. Instant gratification, short term advantage without drawbacks, meaningless choice in the long run.

Living

>It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

People have argued about the nature of the world forever. We're not gonna reach a consensus about a galaxy that adds some vague force on top of it.

Okay. But do you think the darkside is natural in the living force

>Get white/black world as a canvas
>Make KotOR 2
Nah to hell with the writer. The story was interesting, but not for Star Wars.

Kotor 2 is one of my favorite games and kreia is one of my favorite characters in all of fiction, and I don't even like star wars

I actually use similar interpretation of the Force for RPG games.

Jedi lean on the Force and listen to it. And it helps them. That's why they can use some powers that human/alien brain can't use on its own (like healing). That's also why some of them constantly second guess themselves and chicken out of action - Force may not like it.

Sith on the other hand teat the Force as a blunt instrument using emotions as a way to bend more of it to some immediate use. Their techniques are either pretty crude or need a lot of training and learning, much more than Jedi powers of comparable complexity. That's why there is such a divide between young dark siders and those who stand at the top with many powers completely out of reach of rookies. They don't even know how to attempt them.

Great post OP, I'm very impressed by your intellect

So the force is a roastie?

Probably?
Dark side is all about letting your emotions run unchained.
Without emotions living beings wouldn't really be living beings (heck, even the droids have those in SW, and they aren't Force-sensitive apart from Skippy).
It's like fire, use it responsibly and it's neat, use it too much and you burn yourself and everything around.
A lot of SW is about how power corrupts even regular people, like Tarkin, C3P0 (he send all those ewooks to death, man), the nemodians or the senators, it's no surprise Force users that aren't paragons of self-restraint get drunk on it and fall to the dark side.

>Darkside is weaker than the light.
>Sith manage to holocaust the Jedi order
Something doesn't add up

They had to rely on smarts instead of raw force. it adds up just fine.

Did you not notice the part where the holocausting was done without actively waving a force dick around?

So, basically, what you are saying is Jedi Order was full of cosmic level retards incapable of even finding their own ass?

The force is a blight that fills the galaxy with needless strife. Truly to sever the universe from it would be a blessing.

That part should be obvious for anyone who watched prequels.

>Implying Lucas actually did any research

Face it, the man's a hack who lucked out.

Which is why I always found disappointing how they made Palpatine a super powerful sith lord. I would have preferred him to be a politician before all, succeeding with politic what the sith of old failed with the Force and... well force.
Still sith lord, don't get me wrong, but not an exceptionally strong one.

To be fair, he picked up a pretty neat trick from anakin

Him using the force was more rudimentary than anything

Darth sidious vs mace windu?
Darth sidious vs Yoda?

Clone trooper vs [all the other fucking jedi]?

He got his dick kicked in by Windu when he showed up, though it may have been on purpose to appeal to Anakin. Yoda only showed up when Palpatine had basically already won.

Darth vader vs Younglings?

Your first mistake was going on /v/

>There is an alternative universe where the younglings won.

please explain
I think he would be killed by Mace if he didn't use force lighting. And previously, I doubt he used his lightning saber without the force when 3 jedi came to arrest him.

His autistic sreeching is not a force power user

But how?

Wait a minute. If everything is connected to the Force, with each person being affected in a way by its flow, does that mean that great shifts in it (horrendous genocides, star system-wide parties, etc) could affect an average person's behaviour, if only slightly?

Force wound

Has he even lost a duel?

...

Was HE right, Veeky Forums?

There's a force power called Force Scream, so autistic screeching could be a force power.