MTG: Legacy General

Tried Desert Power out, but the deck gave me some seriously bad draws. I tried to get too cute with the manabase and use Crop Rotation, I'm going to rework the deck to be more of a straight-up Blue/Black Reanimator with a potential combo finish.

One per band.

Delver, Storm, Eldrazi

Grixis delver, bug delver, and ur delver

Im not 100% sure how crewing works but couldnt phyrexian dreadnought be used with consulate dreadnought quite well? I have alot of cards for good old stiflenought and decided to try something out.

just slam all the 2 card phyrexian dreadnought combos you can into the deck. Stifle/nought, phase/nought, nought/nought. throw in some enlightened tutors, a stoneforge package, and some extra disruption and you got yourself a stew.

if you had 2 consulate dreadnoughts and one of the phyrexian variety, could you use the phynought to crew one, which you'd then use to crew the other, and then sac them both to keep the phynought?

Yep.

This format is terrible, between ridiculous prices for dual lands and just about every staple, russian roulette matchups with glass cannon combo decks like Reanimator, Show and Tell, and Elves that have zero interaction to them. Miracles may have been cancer but at least it kept worse cancer in check. Now this formats just fast combo opening hand bullshit like Yu Gi Oh. Good luck playing fair magic when your opponent slams a T1 Sire of Insanity and no FoW is not an answer, its a max 4 of in your deck and you arent always going to have it in your opener.
>inb4 t. salty ex Miracles player

Probably just going to sell my duals at this point. They ban every piece that fair decks can use like Top but allow fast combo to keep all their tools and consistently turn 2 you. T1 Sire may not be a "win" but it basically is if you dont immediately have an answer and the only answer is Force of Will.

Nice bait my friend, I'm sure you'll garner a few more replies :)

>things I dont like are bait
Unfair combo decks are cancer
Sorry that losing turn 1 to bullshit like Belcher and Reanimator is boring and unfun

Don't even bother to reply to shitposts like that, it only encourages them to keep doing it.

How is liking fair magic a shitpost? One reason people hate Yu Gi Oh nowadays is that its super fast and you win based on the opening hand. Magic may not be to that point yet but its getting there. Force of Will is the only thing saving this format and even that isnt enough sometimes.

I'm on your side nigger, I was just telling you to stop replying to retards that have no argument other than "nice bait"

Oh alright. It really sucks because I like this format but its really starting to degenerate and fall apart. Combo was never this fast, but for some reason Wizards stopped caring about the format and the turn 3 rule a long time ago. I dont like to say cards should be banned because it does hurt people and shakes faith in the format but when the format is this fast what else can you do but ban cards? Even decks like D&T which theyve printed a ton of powerful combo hate for still have a rough time against those decks because of how quick and redundant they are. If anything Ponder should get the axe, its restricted in Vintage and banned in Modern so there is a precedent and ,unlike Brainstorm, Ponder only fuels degenerate combo decks.

All I want is a "We're sorry for fucking up a perfectly balanced format" from wizards. Before the miracles axe, aggro and combo were popular enough where they both occupied 32% of the format, and control sat at 34%. For being the last bastion of control in this shitty game, in no way was it ever oppressing legacy. The only decks it was "oppressive" to were decks that weren't even playing the same game as everybody else.
As for ponder, I think it's fine. It's only restricted in vintage because you can do much more degenerate shit in vintage than legacy could ever come close to.

Good luck getting that, if anything Deathrite will get the axe next and Reanimator will be even more bullshit. On the subject of balance and speed in non rotating formats, basically theyve changes several design philosophies for I think the better, yeah creatures are pushed but the biggest and best thing they ever did was moving away from fast mana and cheap library manipulation. I dont know maybe im just salty, ill just play some Kitchen table for a while I think. I need a break from competitive magic.

I think miracles was a bit oppressive, but banning top was like using a howitzer to destroy an anthill. If they had banned terminus we still would have had a grindy countertop based control deck to help keep fast combo in check while making decks like maverick playable again. Instead all wizards did was kill miracles and a number of lower tier interesting decks while making fast combo like storm even better. I love this format, but holy shit did wizards fuck the ever loving shit out of it with this last ban decision; Literally 2/3 my local meta is now storm/reanimator/grixis delver/deathrite.dec. It's already starting to get kinda stale.

When one deck is 20% of meta top-8s and the next highest hits—maybe—13%, that's not a good thing. That was Legacy this time last year.

People seem to forget that the decks that are doing well now were doing fine before Miracles got hammered. Suddenly it's a problem for Your Deck because some other deck got the axe? Really? Why wasn't it a problem before? Unless you're one of the few people who actually day-2 big events, I don't think things are likely to change much, and if you're one of those people, I don't really know why you're so upset.

Also, when the hell did people persuade themselves that Force of Will was the only answer to fast combo?

Actually, I played against Blecher and did a reanimated Sire using Animate Dead. I hit him three times until he topdecked a Burning Wish, cast it to grab a Reverent Silence which killed my creature. I couldn't string together another reanimation before he came back and killed me with a Charbelcher activation. It was a lot of fun, though, we were both sweating as we topdecked.

What else answers a Turn 1 Sire on the draw? Because that and Storm ripping apart your hand turn 1 and 2 are what this formats become thanks to WotCs terrible management of this format. Seriously they nerf fair decks by banning Top and allow Fast combo decks to keep all their pieces and continue printing bullshit for them like Dark Petition and Collective Brutality. What happened to the turn 3 rule Wizards? Because im pretty sure Reanimator is a reliable turn 2 win with some turn 1 "wins", same with Sneak and Show albeit a turn slower. Also if you arent playing Blue just forget about it, you have to have a t0 Leyline of the Void, or Discard into RIP/Rule of Law and with how much discard the Reanimator decks and Storm decks are running good luck with that. Watch Wizards be complete bumbling dumbasses though and ban Deathrite Shaman next ban announcement for being too strong and then we'll get even more unfun uninteractive games of Turn 1 Dark Rit, Entomb, Reanimate.

At some point WotC either stopped looking at data or stopped caring about Legacy at all because for about a year and a half now combo decks have been breaking the turn 3 rule consistently. They tried nerfing them with banning DTT and Cruise and Miracles seemed like a boogeyman but Miracles was played because locking them out completely is the only way to beat them consistenly. The problem with combo decks has always been cheap deck manipulation and fast mana, im not saying that all of that needs to go but how can you ban cards that fair decks use like Top and Survival of the Fittest but fast combo gets to keep everything for some reason and every fair deck has to fight an extreme uphill battle. Its like Wizards has multiple personality disorder, examples include
>Splinter Twin was too good in Modern but allowed to be in Standard for a ridiculously long period of time when every piece of data showed it was too good and almost half the metagame
>Combo decks are kept in check with bans in Modern but are allowed to rape the Legacy format and are way faster then turn 3 nowadays
>A one mana mana elf is too good but a 2 mana Serra Angel isnt
>"We are cutting down on tutors" was said before Origins was released and then they go give Storm a busted tutor that produces mana to boot
Its like a psychotic ex girlfriend you cant escape hellbent on ruining everything you enjoy

What's the elf and angel?

I think he's referring to Deathrite Shaman and Serra Avenger in modern.

>What else answers a Turn 1 Sire on the draw?

Surgical Extraction
Faerie Macabre
Leyline of the Void

If you can't beat reanimator it's because you really aren't bothering to.

It wasn't just about weakening Miracles; Sensei's Top causes serious problems for tournaments running on time which in turn is a very bad thing for paper Legacy (TO's become a lot less interested in running big Legacy tournaments).

I've very rarely seen these mythical slow top users. If your opponent is taking more than 15-20 seconds to resolve a top activation, you call a judge. If they can't play a deck containing top reasonably quickly you get them handed warnings/game loses for slow play. Entreat based miracles had the problem of not being able to close games, the mentor based version could turn the corner and end games very quickly. I actually very rarely saw miracles players go to time with the exception of the mirror, but lets be honest, control mirrors have a tendency to go to time anyway. I do concede that miracle's games went overall longer than the average game of legacy. This also doesn't take into account the lose of diversity in the legacy metagame that banning top caused.
Painter? Dead.
DDFT? BTFO.
12 Post? BTFO.
NicFit? Much Worse.
Point is, banning top has made legacy a much less diverse and interesting place and in addition has taken away one of the decks that naturally preyed on combo, making it much more likely that additional bans will be required to maintain the health of the format.

Wizards has stated that they think one mana mana dorks like Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch are a mistake. Thats why Birds wasnt in Origins. The 2 mana Serra Angel is Heart of Kiran which is a 2 mana 4/4 Vigilant Flyer where the only cost to play it is having four Gideon AoZ in your deck

This. The format is terrible now. Whats te point of even playing it when out of the top 5 decks, 4 of them are fast uninteractive combo. Storm, GB Depths, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator are the top decks now. Great format. People want to claim Modern is bad but this format is arguably less interactive then even Modern now. At least DSJ interacts and isnt turn 2 win. Affinity and Burn are uninteractive but way easier to fight and disrupt and Storm is playable but not oppressively good which is how it should be.

crying already started, let the combo winter begin

protip: if your deck isn't disruptive enough to intercept fast combo it belongs to the trash

Since the top ban my local meta has degenerated into 75% fast combo and delver, and I'm already tired of it. That's why next legacy night at my LGS I'm bringing this list to harvest some salt:

Thalia Stompy:
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Lodstone Golem
1x Palace Jailer
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Walking Ballista
2x Containment Priest
4x Chalice
4x Mox Diamond
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Eldrazi Temple
2x Karakas
7x Plains
4x Wasteland

SB:
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Containment Priest
3x Rest in Peace
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Disenchant
2x Holy Light
4x Swords to Plowshares

The numbers are still a little rough, but it already feels pretty good. This deck stomps the shit out of ANT/TES and Reanimator, and has good matchups against most of the delver, Sneak & Show, and BUG goodstuff decks in testing. However, it's Lands match up is balls. I'm hoping nobody will be on lands due to how awful its fast combo matchups are in general. What do you anons think? should I try to get in some 3balls/Suppression Fields? What about the creature mix? I've been debating on Mindcensor, it seems like it might be too cute, I could see going +1 Prelate and +1 TKS/Revoker instead.

Screwed up the lands, should also have 3x Cot

There was a deck disruptive enough to keep this bullshit in check, it was called Miracles. Have fun with your turn 1 Yu Gi Oh format though.

Ban Gitaxian Probe

welcome to Legacy

Soldier stompy is probably in somewhat okay place at the moment? At least it has all the tools to attack combos and go faster than DnT.

Like I said Miracles kept the bullshit in check. Its only been a few weeks since the ban so I guess you meant to say welcome to NuLegacy. Its like Modern but with uninteractive combo decks instead of uninteractive aggro decks now!

you can hate out any combo deck easily and the lack of an overpowered format-warping control deck gives you more board slots for combo hate if anything
at any rate, whining so early into this new meta makes you only look funny

ITT: Delusional muraclefags still have a sore asshole.

This is why we run daze newfriend

Because the new meta is more cancerous then the old one by far and has already been figured out within two weeks. The format is literally Delver variants Eldrazi and D&T fighting fast combo decks.

Yeah because Wizards banned the gatekeeper and opened up the floodgates of uninteractive bullshit to pour in. Miracles deserved a hit but other shit will have to be hit now to keep things in check. People are already claiming DRS is next on the chopping block.

And yes im fucking upset. I loved playing a true control deck like Miracles. It felt good actually having control over winning or losing the game. It felt like the choices you made during the game of Magic had weight to them, influenced whether you won or lost and overall made you a better player. Now what is there to play? You can goldfish a combo deck or you can play boring Delver variants, theres also D&T which is about the only interesting deck left. Also ban killed Painter so theres a $2500 deck thats completely useless and unplayable now

>And yes im fucking upset. I loved playing a true control deck like Miracles. It felt good actually having control over winning or losing the game. It felt like the choices you made during the game of Magic had weight to them, influenced whether you won or lost and overall made you a better player. Now what is there to play? You can goldfish a combo deck or you can play boring Delver variants, theres also D&T which is about the only interesting deck left. Also ban killed Painter so theres a $2500 deck thats completely useless and unplayable now

If you loved the deck how would you have nerfed it?

Wouldn't surprise me at all if DRS was the next thing to go. If your playing a fair deck you now need a pretty insane reason not to be BGX, and the next logical step is to go to BUG to get access to Force, Brainstorm, Leovold, etc. I used to think my local meta was immune to this type of lazyness, but now its either decks with DRS or fast combo. It really makes me sad, we used to have some really interesting decks kicking around, you never knew what kind of hot craziness you might play on a given week. Now its all grixis delver, various fast combo, and TNN BUG builds.

Mostly BUG decks to play DRS and Leovold now. Those two are super powerhouse together. Basically there is no reason to play shit cards like shardless agent now that we have access to Leovold.

Before the ban, the format was delver, eldrazi, and dnt fighting miracles and fast combo.

Well fuck off, nobody wants to play with you either

called it

sounds to me you don't even like this format, you only liked your busted deck

Ooooooh, I like it and I hope it works out. Also, is it just me, or does Lodestone Golem actually interact with Storm in the way I think it does?

They pulled this bullshit in Modern too by banning Splinter Twin and from that we've seen nothing but aggro decks and back to back bans. I don't agree that Top was a good ban at all. A signature of a healthy format should be the LACK of bans, not a ban every three months. I'm anticipating a bad Legacy metagame but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Lodestone golem interacts with storm in much the same way thalia does. Not quite as bad an effect but the clock is much faster .

This is pretty much my thoughts as well, DRS is the next logical ban if WotC decides to keep chipping away at the format. After DRS it'll be Chalice, then the best Moxes and LED, soon we'll be playing modern with more duals.

>Comparing top and twin.
>Saying that current modern meta is bad
Wewew lad

I don't understand all this "miracles kept combo in check" bullshit. First of all, combo isn't even more prevalent now than it was before the ban. Looking at mtggoldfish, storm is 11% of the meta, S&S is 7%, reanimator is 3%, and turbo depths is 2%. I'm sure there are some other combos running around so I'll round up to ~25-30% combo in the meta. That doesn't seem that oppressive to me. Also, miracles wasn't that great against combo anyway. Delver decks were far more threatening to combo than miracles because they actually put a reasonable clock on the combo decks.

So soon we'll all be playing Vintage, right? I can afford Oath of Druids in about 4 or 5 years.

You are trying to make sense with Delusional autists. They won't acknowledge that their precious deck is not really needed on the format

I seem to have a very different situation than most of you guys. My meta's getting a lot more diverse post-top, especially in the control archetype. The legacy scene here has always been very great though with people lending cards freely and monthly high-stake tournaments.

Where is this promised land?

>Saying that current modern meta is bad
>Wewew lad

It really isnt great though, aggro is ~60% of the meta, and the current combo worth anything is either storm(which can't deal with a single removal spell) or a toolbox deck. There's no control to speak of in the format because it has nothing to prey on. Modern is roughly 2 decks right now, one that aims to drop fatties as quickly as possible, one that drops little dudes and bolts. That's honestly the meta right now and it's the reason I've moved into playing almost completely legacy.

Also, top ban was a bad ban(counterbalance or terminus would have been better), but at least the meta can adapt better than other formats, still feel bad for DDFT guy and anyone playing nic fit.

>They won't acknowledge that their precious deck is not really needed on the format
Talk to me in a few months when combo and aggro decks make up 80% of the format

The only reason that aggro is so prevalent in modern is because tron exists. Hope you can kill them before they drop ugin on turn 4 :^)

>Uw control is tier 1
>No control
Lol keep talking about things to don't know

>less than 2% of the meta
>tier 1

delusional modernfags, everyone

Did you seriously just call Dark Petition busted?

the online meta moves much faster than the paper one, and aggro/combo is clearly not 80%. Keep crying my friend, turns out miracles wasn't the floodgates holding back the surge of combo.

I said in a few months, but keep grasping at straws. Time to sleeve up eldrazi. If wizards wants to push brainless shit so badly, might as well join them.

yes, and I said that online the format has already adjusted to the lack of miracles. There isn't some secret combo that miracles was keeping down that is going to burst out and become the next best thing.

Late reply but I would have banned Terminus. A one mana instant board wipe was really good and if that was gone aggro decks would have had a much easier time putting pressure on the deck.

UWB or UWr stone blade?

I did like the format and the deck and no not because it was busted but because it had interaction, there was a ton of lines of play and the decisions you made during the game determined whether you won or lost, a great play could pull you to victory but a misplay was very easily a loss. I enjoyed the deck because it didnt play itself. Goldfishing combo and sequencing aggro decks is not fun, 90% of games its the same shit with only a few stand out games where decisions you made mattered and you werent just on autopilot.

MtGtop8 still lists UW control which is essentially Miracles as the top control deck which is untrue as the deck is unplayable now. It'll take a few weeks for it to display correct stats of the meta and you can bet your duals that itll be fast combo and Delver the format. No new decks become viable due to the ban suff that was jank remains jank but what does happen is fast combo that was good before now gets to rape the format because there is no Control deck anymore.

Not him but UW control is actually really good right now and im enjoying Modern more then Legacy after the ban so take that as you will.

>mainphasemtg.net/modern-tier-list/2017/5/8/modern-tiered-list-weekly-update-and-analysis-for-5817
>3, 2 -3,7 -4,7
Keep lying fag

It's all just shitposting from bored modern players. Look at their general, it's crawling along like a Legacy thread. They're bored and want (you)s.

Mtggoldfish uses only decks that recently 5-0ed a league and some that placed at larger tournaments, it is up to date and combo is not running rampant. Miracles wasn't even that good against most combo because it gave the combo decks time to sculpt the perfect hand. Plus a lot of times it has a bunch of bad/dead cards game one in combo matchups

I like both colors, but I think esper is slightly better positioned. Depends on if you need blood moon or not.
That being said, I think both variants aren't that great. Might as well run delver or combo.

Definitely Esper. Jeskai Stoneblade is a meme.

care to explain ?

Red really only gives you access to Bolt and Pyromancer. Black gives you access to hand destruction, Vindicate, even Liliana. Black is a lot better in midrange in Legacy than Red imo.

Red also gives pyroblast which is a pretty big deal imo

Then if your meta has a lot of blue based decks, run Jeskai. If your meta requires more hand disruption and is heavy with combo, Esper is a better route.

Im curious, what list do you run?

>butthurt bad miracles player who got stomped by skilled combo players detected

Are miracles players really so delusional that they think their deck was the only one that required any amount of skill to play? I'll be honest, it wasn't even that hard. I picked up a miracles deck and played it a couple times at some weeklies, and I think I only lost a single match. Navigating the first few turns may have been tricky and important to get right, but after that you just coast on how much more powerful your deck is than the rest of the field. Wow you spun top and put a 2 cmc card on top to counter their 2 cmc spell. Very skill intensive.

The deck is gone fucktard so no im not getting stomped by combo players because im not playing Legacy anymore. When I did get stomped by combo it felt fair like I could've done something else to try and prevent it. The mistake was on me and it didnt feel like I lost because of a matchup. When I won a game with Miracles it felt good because I made decisions that impacted the game, the win wasnt handed to me through the deck autopiloting itself like a Goldfish aggro or combo deck. How hard is it to get that people like decisions in all games? They like their choices to matter, I dont want to play a video game thats on autopilot why would I want to play a card game on autopilot. Im not saying that autopilot decks are bad either necessarily, people enjoy different things and if a player wants to play something as one note as Burn or Reanimator then they should have the ability to do so, but I should have the ability to play a deck I want to as well and at this point the only deck left with real decision making is D&T and Delver.

>this is what miraclefags actually believe

wew lad

This list with a few changes. I run a few Wall of Omens and Restoration Angels and the Planeswalker suite is two Gideon AoZ, and one Suns Champion.

Point out one thing I said that was wrong. Is it wrong that people like decisions in games? Because the trend with modern gaming is to give players a ton of choices, whether its Call of Duty players choosing which guns, perks, and attachments they like or Dark Souls players selecting a weapon and armor set they enjoy, or MOBA players choosing which heroes they like to play most, players want choices and decks like Reanimator, Burn, Sneak and Show, and Belcher are completely devoid of those choices.