Twilight 2000

Has anyone here played any version of Twilight 2000? Does anyone here have stories from this system/setting? I'd be interested in playing it, if I could find the rulebooks. The idea of a war-ruined central Europe interests me.

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Sharing cold war images until this takes off

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All kinds of shit, desu

Think this is 'Nam

I think 90s shit like the gulf war or yugoslavia should also fit

Imagine.

Which aesthetic would dominate: 'Nam or Gulf War?

All the extra shit this guy has

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I'm going to go til I can't go no mo

Yugoslavia provides some good imagery

The 90s were a shitshow

All the shit that might have been

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Last but not least

>Canonically France wins
How do you deal?

HONHONHON

>I'd be interested in playing it, if I could find the rulebooks.

The Archive listed in the OP of the Traveller General has all the books from all the versions. If a Veeky Forums thread isn't active, check the board archive for one.

>>Canonically France wins

If by "win" you mean "marginally less ass raped" then, yes, France wins.

And "France" in 2300AD isn't the European France too many assume. France in 2300AD is European France plus nearly all of West Africa.

I played it back in the day. The game mechanics are a bit old school, and character generation would be considered a pain in the ass by today's standard.

I would suggest GURPS as they do guns better than anyone. But if you do use Twilight 2000, have have fun and don't to to attached to your player characters.

I played the fuck out of T2K when I was younger. It's a ton of fun.
I really enjoyed Allegheny Uprising (module) as I grew up in southwest PA
>protip: there's nothing between the ft. pitt tunnels, the loot would be outside the city, trust me

Oh man, I used to play this with my older cousin a long time ago...

>inna US Army platoon in western Poland when the bombs drop
>we were mostly unaffected by the first strike but quickly found ourselves cut off from command and behind enemy lines
>commander decides to fall back to divisional headquarters
>skirmish with some surviving Pact forces along the way, but continue with minor casualties
>we dont really think about what happened to the world, there's just a nervous optimisim between all of us that this was just an isolated incident. We'll get rotated out when we get to division command and head home as war heroes
>we arrive to find it a smoking, irradiated crater.
>we find some soldiers who declared themselves deserters, and after a gunfight one of the PCs got wounded
>bullet pierced his MOPP suit and we were in a highly radioactive area, there wasn't anything we could do with our limited resources
>we left him there alone to die
>after that shit got real
>we decided to head to Berlin, after all, somebody high up must've survived
>morale is raised even though we're low on food and ammo, all we do is think about what we're going to do once we get out of here
>a few more PCs die to bandits and Pact troops, but we keep reminding ourselves that once we get to Berlin everything's going to be okay
>eventually we reach Seelow and see the smoke in the distance
>Berlin is in ruins
>we are desperately low on food and medical supplies, and there are only a couple of us that have survived since the beginning
>as I saw the ruins I knelt down, and put my M9 into my mouth

>Not getting nuked
>Not getting turned into fallen state
>Not having to deal with problems like people fighting for a tube of toothpaste
>Still having more or less intact military
>Being one of few countries to realise that escalating the conflict further will backfire horribly
They were, at least in the first edition, the only level-headed guys in the entire NATO, as the inversion of the infamous "lel, France will totally surrender". In this conflict not playing the game is the only way to win, to quote War Games.

>"marginally less ass raped"
>Intact state with unscratched infrastructure
I guess we have different definition of "marginally"
>Inb4 but riots
Not everyone is American. And it's described straight on that France continues to function almost unhindered by the global war, because they didn't wasted all their resources, manpower and infrastructure on ridiculous and unwinnable war.

More 2E than 1E but yes. Fun times. Though I prefered the system within the context of the Dark Conspiracy setting.

1E is d100-based, 2E d20. they're basically 2 different games.

the fun part about 2E is that you get to roll a d20 per shot fired in full-auto - at which point the game feels more like playing 40K with a bucket full o' dice. still one of the best modern fire combat systems out there.

Take 1e setting, use 2.2e rules and you are golden. Literally no better stand-alone game dealing with modern setting and combat using real weapons.

I was in a long running Twilight 2k game a while ago. I'll write up a greentext for it and post it when I get off work this evening. If this tread is gone I'll start a new one. Hold the gap, a relief force is coming.

>L85 mag stat
>FNC is basically a re-chambered FAL

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it's fun

>L85 mag stat
They have 20-round mags as well. They just couldn't fit 20/30 in the description. The text block above it has the right numbers.

As a note: Would you rather the 10-round mags the IW has in 1e?

imagine needing a jewelers watch repair kit to do standard maintenance.

Are there stats for the Russian AN94 about?

Just use AK-74 stats, except for ROF and the recoil stats

Website with a ton of homebrew.

pmulcahy.com/

The guy is actually impressive. He got prototypes that I only found info about in the national archives.
He got stats for the MAF, for fuck's sake.

It was an optical countermeasure platform

Well, yeah, but it looks neat as fug

It's one of my favourite settings, but it's a very numbers-heavy game. I'd love to play it again

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>>"marginally less ass raped"
>>Intact state with unscratched infrastructure

Unscratched infrastructure which depends on constant imports of materials no longer available in the types. kinds, and quantities available pre-war. You know, stuff like OIL or NATURAL GAS. The supertankers don't exist any more, the various pipelines from the USSR don't exist any more, and while the deposits still exist, the lands above them are either occupied by hostile forces, irradiated wastelands, or both.

The need for oil and natural gas isn't so everyone can continue driving their Peugots, but so they can continue making the making unimportant stuff like FERTILIZER.

>Not everyone is American.

I never knew that.

>> And it's described straight on that France continues to function almost unhindered by the global war

The keyword in that statement being almost. As designed, the Final War was collective idiocy and, as designed, the French are to admired for their wisdom in staying out of it.

Suggesting that France is some shiny untouched oasis of late 20th C culture & technology blithely zipping along as the rest of falls into a Hobbesian nightmare is nonsense.

TL;DR - France isn't Gondolin.

Its a very cool setting, but the setting is a huge pain in the ass and it runs very poorly. I ran two sessions before I decided no one was having fun and we started a campaign with something else. I did kind of like it and I think there was potential if everyone in the group was really into it, had an almost complete understanding of the rules , and were very patient with the math stuff. But also if that's what your game requires to be fun it's not a very good game.

I think I remember a newer version being released (the most recent one, not the second edition) but I don't know if it's any good or fixes the ass backwards rules problem. I know it was on a completely new rules framework, but it was still like 400 pages and they fucked with the timeline details which was the best part.

I would love a modern update that keeps the original milsim feeling with having an intuitive rule system that actually plays well at the table. As of right now the game is kind of only enjoyable to a very autist group.

Also I think have like every PDF ever made for it including the magazines, if people need that. (Would need to check if it's on the hard drive I think it is)

*But the system is a huge pain
Not the setting lmao

please post the pdfs

mega.nz/#F!6xQlWYab!XmzDgUhd_JH4fNc0jqEpRQ

Here's the original repository. I have a local version where things are better organized and has the magazines included, but unfortunately I think it's on the hard drive of my computer that just died. I'll fix it eventually, but this is pretty much everything anyways.

I agree the math was difficult and lengthy when it came to vehicle combat (either vehicle vs vehicle or person vs vehicle) but that was really it.
Come to think of it, it was the PEN rules (armor penetration) that made things difficult at first, but once you understood them it actually became quite easy

>He even stated the military utility trailers of 20 different countries.

Literally he Pen rules were what I was thinking about as I wrote that post. Even though there not hard to understand it took far to long to do for something that can potentially happen multiple times during combat.

Other than that there were a lot of individual system that worked kind of differently and took extra work. The day to day survival stuff was the most tedious and boring stuff in there. While survival rules were important to the feel of the game and the setting, they didn't need to be so simulationist. They would be much more fun as something mechanically smart and easy.

Has anyone tried Albedo? I heard it uses the same ruleset as Twilight 2000.
Same question with 2300 AD, I'm more of a sci-fi fag.

I remember the boat rules being a complete chore, tho.

Thanks user. Please come back if you manage to fish the magazines.

>I remember the boat rules being a complete chore, tho.
They were. I scrapped a lot of the extraneous bullshit from Pirates of the Vistula (all the tables: marauders, river obstacles etc) and rolled it all into a massive (but useable) random encounter table.
Also, the characters were towing a barge that had a humvee and a sandbag hardpoint with an MG so they were truly a slow moving target.

>t. actual forever dm... since about 1984

The game was intended to be a spot on pure simulationist game, and it very much was amazing as such.
I always applied rules when needed, glossed over what I didn't. I think the survivalist part of the game crunch is extremely important to set the tone of the game overall, and can be used to apply a more 'dire tone' to some areas as opposed to others.
Keep in mind, it's still a game so just use the rules judiciously: characters want a story to follow and need more than just 'well fuck me, time to brew liquor for vehicles, time to forage for 12 hours' every other day. Give them that story, and use the rules sparingly as a vehicle to help deliver it.

>>t. actual forever dm... since about 1984
o7

Don't hesitate to post your homebrew, revered grognard.

Doesn't Phoenix Command already fill that spot?

Twilight 2000 is a very cool game: it's Grognard as all hell, but it's an RPG and not a wargame, so it has all the depth and detail you would expect from that.

it has some odd rules and character creation foibles, but other than that it's pretty good.

have played, i'd give it a 7/10

is that a FAMAS?

But that's what I'm saying, while it's interesting in theory to have a game designed to be an extreme simulation, in play it ends up being slow and clunky. In reality, eventually even the most hardcore get bored of rolling dice for all the minutia of there activities. Theoretically you could write scripts to do all the lengthy calculations for you, but I am always wary of that. To me it ruins the spirit of a tabletop game.
Also, that statement I keep hearing of "it's just a game ignore the rules you don't want" is a very silly excuse for bad game design. It's that line of thinking that lead to increasingly comprehensive rule sets that plagued the TRPG industry up until a couple years ago.

If you put a rule in a book, most people are going to use it, especially if you don't label it as optional or something to that effect. Also when the other systems of that game are built around that rule things start to degrade. For the case of Twilight, that could be a player whose character is really good at foraging and survival suddenly feeling useless because the DM decided to gloss over the crunch of that stuff today. I want a to play a system that gives me rules that I can expand and build off rather than a system I have to ignore to have a fun time. If the game was well designed I would want to use everything in it, and I could always come up with expanded or better rules if I felt it wasn't crunchy enough. A game should be geared so that people make home rules that are additive rather than subtractive.

Continuing:

In any case I would love an updated version of Twilight that preserved the feeling of the gritty, milsim, living off the land, type play. It need just enough crunch to retain the simulationist intent without restricting gameplay. I think the dire tone set by the survival rules could be retained easily through just an abstract simulation. Really all you need there is a random return on living resources influenced by player stats and a constant rate of consumption. That alone leaves them unsure if they can gather the supplies they need, no hardcore squirrel hunting simulation required.
In addition, most of the stuff should be redesigned to fit a few universal resolution mechanics instead of changing how the system works for most rolls. Even better wpuld be just letting the GM figure out a way to resolve more obscure scenarios like dynamite fishing (ugh). It's pretty much garunteed the GM will remember it better and it will fit the group's style.

Some of the stuff is great and I think should stay. Obviously the setting, the idea of morale rules (maybe could be handled better), all the different equipment you could use, and the NPC rules (generating them based on a deck of cards, genius!). There's some other stuff but I feel a complete redesign of the system with the original intent of the 80s game preserved would result in a game that would be dearly loved.

>It's totally the same if you have limited access to fuel (which was an issue for everyone for past decade and everyone worked their way around it) and getting nuked, with outright civil war/fallen country in the background
>Totally makes no difference
Fags like you are really boring. The worst part is even the original creators were constantly talking about it, but then came contrarian millenial faggotry and started "B-but how can France hold! Surely they m-must be fucked!"
They aren't. The whole point of 2300 AD is about them NOT getting fucked.

Also, outside France there are:
Australia and NZ
South Africa
And in fact, all of Africa
Most of Latin America (Mexico even managed to take pieces of US for itself in organised fashion for fucks sake)
Switzerland
Italy
Yugoslavia (which means half of Balkans)
Scandinavia (aside direct Soviet border, which saw conventional fighting)
Most of Asia
And so on and forth

The only butt-fucked countries are US, UK, Warsaw Pact (especially Poland), both Germanies and USSR.
It's like you don't even know the setting's lore.

The whole fucking point of the setting is two superpowers bleeding each other out without taking anyone down and the planet as a whole doing pretty fine for a nuclear war scenario.

if you have to ask...

That's the gimbal turret torn off a M16 GMC. It was actually designed so that it could be removed from the truck and either towed or put in a foundation. It was also really handy because the battery supply to move the turret was spread out along the base, making it very stable, so you could whip that turret around without worrying about flying around.

>Fags like you are really boring.

Plays realistic military simulation game. Whines about realistic simulations.

>They aren't. The whole point of 2300 AD is about them NOT getting fucked.

2300AD is over 300 years AFTER T:2000, douche. France wins because they're able to recover faster and France recovers faster because they're less damaged. LESS damaged and not UNdamaged. Claiming that the worldwide loss of petroleum production & transport infrastructure didn't effect France at all is idiocy.

France isn't Gondolin, faggot, and this isn't some case of asinine Francophobia either. France wins over the next few centuries because they were smart in the late 20th C. France still took her lumps.

>Also, outside France there are:

Which were all effected by the loss of petroleum. Everyone gets ass-raped. It's just a matter of how deep, how often, and whether lube was used.

You can find everything for TW2000 in the PDF thread. Was into this when it first came out and it made for some intense sessions. Had a party make it to Krakow and became mercenaries of a sort to augment the town guard. Then they hired out on a mission to Warsaw via the Vistula river and returned, before finally gathering enough supplies and (mainly NATO) personnel to head for France via Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Italy.

mega.nz/#F!C9sQhbwb!NVnD4jvUn5inOrPJIAkBhA

Wouldn't the african and south american oil fields provide enough petroleum for what's left of the planet?

Or, which you've might missed, the world as the whole contineus to go as it was, with nobody getting damaged aside the former top dogs, their satellites and countries where most of the fighting took place.
This is realistic scenario in a realistic military game. Because we are talking about LIMITED nuclear exchange and 7 years of fighting. If you seriously think that's not enough time for the non-participants to adopt to the US-Soviet war, then you are yet again projecting retarded expectations that have no backing in the setting itself.

They would, which is my point. The world is not at loss of petroleum as a whole. Americans and Eastern Block are. That's it. Nigeria fields are intact. Most of Arab installations are intact. Indonesian installations are intact. So by the end of it, the price of oil might double or triple due to war demand, war priority and getting both US and "Soviet" oil out of the picture, but that's not the end of the world nor utter collapse of petroleum production.
There is a fuck-huge difference between military shortages and lack of resources AND total annihilation of oil-producing facilities. Twilight 2000 has the first one, combined with serious damage to industrial centres of both US and USSR. Not helping is the fact that Americans have both government coup AND civil war going in their homefield, so things get really shit for them.
But rest of the world? Not affected in the slightest. And when you compare the damage to war participants with all the "suffering" of the non-participants, it's basically a down-time for their (and in a sense - global) economy.
>TBC

>Continuing
That's also why France rises in the setting's timeline - they are one of the biggest economies on the planet before Uncle Sam and Uncle Joe dediced to fight each other and by the end of it - the biggest. China in this scenario can't rise as it did IRL, because most of investors and markest that boosted them cease to exist. Japan is affected by lack of export markets, BUT it has whole Asia now for itself. And so on and forth.
The setting, at least the one from 1e, is really well-thought and made by people who knew their shit. Compare it with the ridiculous setting of Twilight 2013, which has so little in common with geopolitics or global economy or just reality it could as well take place in some fantasy heartbreaker made by highschoolers.

It's clearly post-Nam aesthetic. US soldiers wear woodland camo, PASGT helmets and vests. The load bearing equipment is ALICE. The M16 rifles use standard 30-round magazines and rounded handguards. The Soviets use already the AK-74 as standard rifle, which was also introduced after Nam. Maybe National Guards units would still wear OD fatiques, and M1 helmets.

The First Chechen War has plenty useable pictures.

I used some on my custom Twilight 2000 1st Edition character sheets.

When the Yugoslav Wars went down I remember thinking "this is what Twilight 2000 would have looked like"

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You can also look up for Reforger and Free Lion 88 exercise. Plenty pictures of NATO in West Germany.

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You'll never ride on a BMP-2 wearing a Berezka camo suit and listening to Grupa Krovi. youtube.com/watch?v=i8K0sW8GX-4

You'll never destroy a convoy of T-72 while listening to Judas Priest (youtube.com/watch?v=d_aQgmFXRYI).

Something between 'Nam and retro-futurism. Just look up covers and the art from the books. It's "future as evisioned from mid-80s"

Many years ago I was part of a campaign based around Royal Marines up in the Nordkapp. I remember spending more time fighting disease and the elements rather than the Soviets, and the ambush we did carry out took place over two game sessions of real time but only two minutes game time. But it was immensely satisfying. We never got too far in it but we did manage to plan and carry out a raid on an airfield, escape a bunch of Soviet Marine hunter-killer patrols out to find us, then decide on a near-suicidal mission to hit the sub bases on the coast. (IIRC the Northern fleets pretty much wipe each other out in the first week?) I still have strong memories of the game and it was an excellent experience, but probably a bit over our young heads at the time.

Later the same DM organized a series of games he imaginatively called Twilight 1939, which as you can guess just shifted the system to WW2. It required very little modding, just dropping the obvious modern stuff, tweaking the careers and statting new equipment. I played two games; one where my fanatical young SS officer was headshotted by a sniper on literally his first day of the job in Poland 1939, and a more successful bout as a Marine in the Pacific. It really requires little adjustment to run and again, I have fond memories of the whole thing.

The issue with military RPGs is giving your party a sense of agency. Players used to being independent murderhobos can find it jarring to now be confined within a system of orders and discipline. That's why playing special forces or vehicle crews tends to be popular because you can have more independence. T2K worked because you were practically an adventuring party anyway and there was no-one ordering you around.

Try Yugoslav Wars

>I remember spending more time fighting disease and the elements rather than the Soviets
That's just standard fare in Twilight

I saw the Yugoslavian war on TV - it happened a few hundred kilometer from where I live. Anyway, here's the Twilight 2000 character sheet I made (it's for 1st edition). Equipment and vehicle sheets are coming.

The vehicle sheet.

Strange. Cannot upload the equipment sheet.

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Which book should I read to get an overview of the best setting lore?

Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising.

The core books give the main timeline, the various supplements fill in the details. PDF related is basically a collection of all the known events into one big infodump.

And a collection of charts with an updated equipment list.

I did read that...a long time ago! It was entertaining despite Clancy's bloated writing style.

Thanks, I'll take a look at this!

Camopedia

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I'm interested in the setting but frankly these kinds of charts just make my eyes glaze over.

Has anyone made a similar game but with our modern world and a semi-nuclear war involving Russia and China in the 2020s?

Might be neat to have cyber-hacking as an option with a mangled splinternet.

Twilight 2000 is a crunchy system. The charts are just from the basic box. If you want something lighter, you'd have to convert merge Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Z and convert the real world equipment.

>When the Yugoslav Wars went down I remember thinking "this is what Twilight 2000 would have looked like"
Checked
Also this is exactly what I thought too

There are no brake on the rape train. Installations that could be used by the enemy got nuked, too, even if they were located in neutral territories.

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I'd love to see this. To start today, and have things turn south quick, and pick up with the TW2K premise (shit's bad, you're on your own now, try to get home/survive/improve things)