Shield is a crucial tool on the battlefield, and wielding one with a one-handed weapon in the other hand is pretty cool and full of flavor. Most fantasy systems support this and offer many character options - feats and traits and whatnot - that make the warrior more effective with his shield, to defend himself but also for offense.
But realistically speaking (and as something that virtually no system actually does, probably because it's boring), once you're wearing full plate armor, shield suddenly becomes worthless, even a liability: it's heavy, cumbersome, and doesn't really protect you any more than the steel you're already wearing does - you can parry with your plated wrist and soak arrows with your chestplate. Shield-bashing isn't much more effective than just punching the guy with your gauntlet, either. Suddenly all that time you spent specializing is for naught... or is it?
What's a former shield expert to do after he at last has the money or favor to get himself slapped in full plate? Can he still stick to his shield and have it be useful enough to bother having around? Or could he transfer all that expertise into a simple armored hand, use it to parry attacks and punch people instead of the shield? And where do magic shields stand in this equation?
Armor plating isn't as thick or absorptive as a shield, while having it strapped to your arm means that you can increase impact time against the shield to decrease the effective force of the blow. A suitably large shield (ie. more than a buckler) can be used to obscure the position of your main-hand weapon as well, granting you a slight edge in the possibility of surprise movements.
Matthew Thompson
Bucklers worked pretty well both for offense and defense, not to mention the part about armor making shields redundant only applied to knights. Everyone else still benefitted from them up until firearms became more prevalent.
Long story short: shift to training duelists or common soldiers.
Carson Lee
Shields weren't used with proper full plate once it came around, not because it was cumbersome, but because it was more or less redundant. Normally redundancy is good, but the tradeoff that humanity went for instead was the beginning of the metagame of real life combat - stabbing things from further away, with the much more widespread adoption of two-handed weapons that were longer (longswords, polearms, etc). What's a former shield user to do? Same thing they did in real life. Pick up a bigger, longer weapon and fuck people from a greater reach. Or pick up a gun (or a few).
>Armor plating isn't as thick or absorptive as a shield 1: depends on the shield 2: you don't know how shields are used Shields are used for parrying using the edge or deflective purposes if at all possible, and the large sized ones's main benefit was more coverage from projectiles (spears, arrows, bolts) none of witch could really ever pierce any kind of shield that wasn't made of a single sheet of hide or something equally stupid. Obscuring the position of your main hand weapon is also stupid, because you would be adding more movement required before making contact and therefore going to be telegraphing your attack more. Also, most shield/weapon guards use the weapon to guard ALSO, and this is actually very, very important.
The flipside is that plate is expensive and not as easy to maintain as some other armor. Less full plate was made at first, mostly being relegated to heavy cav and the like. Later on you get more people with breastplates, but that's more the bulletproofed ones, and they filled a role similar to modern day ballistic vests. Less about protecting from melee attacks as shrapnel, and projectiles to the vitals. Part of the reason why the buckler and protective handguards got super popular- people mostly said "fuck it" to armor if they couldn't afford it or were in civilian situations and just stuck to parrying
Nathaniel Brown
What are you fighting against?
>polearms and reach as the other user said, shields will protect you well enough, but if you want to actually hurt them you may have to ditch the shield.
>medium arms you don't want an overly large shield as that will make it harder to parry, increase your telegraphing when you need to strike, and block your own field of view. Some hide their main hand weapon behind the shield, but that means your weapon is relatively small and not suited against similarly armored foes.
>small arms you're in full plate. You don't need a shield. It's safer to kill them fast than to spend time blocking.
>projectiles Here's where large shields come in. You don't even need expensive metal shields, just enough volume to absorb the force. Full plate can protect you from projectiles, but if you deliberately intend to charge through a hail of bullets, the shield will help with the first few volleys.
>on Magic Shields ehhh. The only way I see that still involves conventional shield techniques is using deactivatable weightless enchantments.
Carry a lot of lightened pavises and charge forward. When the pavise being held up gets too riddled with projectiles, drop it and pull out another. If you're making a path for allies, start dropping other pavises earlier on.
Austin Cook
Tell me how useless a shield is when people are shooting arrows at you. A good arrow tip will penetrate will plate where as if it sticks in a shield it's not going into you.
The only time you want to drop a shield is if you have range advantage like a pike or a bow. Other wise they offer too much protection for the weight they offer.
Your shield isn't just for blocking, it's also used for parrying blocks which full plate couldn't do. The force goes away from you rather than into you
Thomas Butler
Daily reminder that GURPS.
Please dont post in historical arms threads if you dont know what you're talking about.
Hudson Fisher
Personally I love shields, part of what makes me like or dislike a system is how it handles shields. I just love the idea of, "Here's a little wall I carry with me, see if you can get past it while I try to stab you."
Literally videos of plate being penetrated by bows.
Owen Davis
not that user but this is why a layer of chain and a quilted doublet was worn under said plate.
Jack Scott
Oh yeah, a youtube video by some retarded American LARP faggots will certainly disprove military historic academic research.
Liam Stewart
I personally wouldn't try to parry anything with my armored wrist/gauntlet or even forearm as those tend to break very easily, even when armored.
also, I have no idea what system you are playing but in real life you never really left your guarded stance when attacking with a sword and shield. You would lash out keeping your shield between you and your foe's attacking area at all times.
A few other advantages of using a shield will always remain. >Much cheaper and easier to fix and maintain >Actually defends really well from piercing attacks such as rondels, pikes, arrows and bolts >Wooden or wooden core shields absorbs shock from a blunt attack such as a flail, mace or hammer really well, without dulling your hand/fingers >Shield wall/locking
A person with light armor and a decent shield is better protected than a plated guy with no shield
Parker Roberts
FUCKING BUCKLERS!
Just use a fucking BUCKLER you retard!
Oliver Parker
If you used the same steel for crafting the armor and the arrow head (1055/65 CS for example) it will penetrate. What did they use back in ye olden days, shitty iron to compensate for cost?
Hunter Taylor
He is asking about shields.
Gavin Johnson
>A person with light armor and a decent shield is better protected than a plated guy with no shield No. No. Nope. That's not how fucking martial arts work, you retard.
>wah wah wah i know better how history happened than actual academics that do experiments and have fucking hundreds of years of primary sources
Fuck off.
Ethan Campbell
I'm curious; is there a system with good or notable shieldplay mechanics?
Not really sure what I'm looking for but I adore the sword'n'board style and I haven't really seen a system with emphasis on that brand of combat as much as others.
Henry Hall
the retardation is strong with this one
Andrew Ramirez
2nd edition AD&D with Player's Option: Combat & Tactics makes shield viable as hell. You can get a lot of armor out of them if you specialize to a shield, and you can even use them to block oncoming attacks outright.
Caleb Russell
That's literally how metal works, fuck face. It's literally what I do for a living. I didn't say they used high end carbon steel for arrow heads because nobody would be able to afford that, so I highly doubt they would have penetrated plate with their sharpened sticks and throwaway wrought iron tips. >Fucking retard
Jace Nguyen
He's right though. As soon as transitional armours became replaced with true plate, shields were no longer of value.
Plate armoured people would rather use two-handed weapons like greatswords, warhammers, poleaxes and pikes than stick with a weapon with inferior reach and a shield.
Bentley Carter
>Muh knightly martial arts
Jordan Powell
>wuh wuh wuh in this highly hypothetical scenario that never happened in history it ~could~ happen, maybe
Yeah, you're fucking retarded.
David Campbell
Your reading comprehension sickens me, kys.
Wyatt Flores
It doesn't even matter one bit. If arrows couldn't penetrate plate in real world, then it probably couldn't do much better in your standard fantasy setting either - whether it were because plate was so superior or because their armors were all shit is completely irrelevant.
Talk about you being a literal blacksmith all you want, it has no true bearing on this discussion.
Brody Wilson
>If arrows couldn't penetrate plate in real world- It literally just did in the video user posted. I just said it wouldn't in the old days because i highly doubt they used quality metal for arrowheads.
>probably couldn't do much better in your standard fantasy setting either Unless, you know, they used something that you don't find in the real world.
William Sanchez
I am out. I must copy OP's first post for the next time I want to start a bait thread on Veeky Forums considering its filled to the brim with retards as of late.
Justin Davis
>It literally just did in the video user posted. I just said it wouldn't in the old days because i highly doubt they used quality metal for arrowheads. And most fantasy settings take place in "the old days", so your point is relevant because...?
>Unless, you know, they used something that you don't find in the real world. Yes, such as magic. But we have no problem believing a magic arrow couldn't penetrate the plate anyway, so once again the video wasn't needed one bit.
Besides, magic arrows would just be countered with magic armor.
Cameron Hill
>What's a former shield expert to do after he at last has the money or favor to get himself slapped in full plate?
Give him a bonus to smack things with two-handed weapons? He's got the arm for it, running around with a shield a lot. Alternatively, brawling.
>clash swords with enemy >time for a shield bash >oh wait, i have no shield >but i do have a hand >sock em in the face >rip their helmet off >slip sword past bind and put a nice scar on that face
Tyler Jones
and Magic armor would be countered with magic swords. Magic swords would be countered with magical shields.
Julian Nguyen
All other things being equal, magic being used against more magic just cancels them out, making your post look like this:
>and armor would be countered with swords. Swords would be countered with shields
I'll give you the strong arm, but I'd think grappling and stuff would be rather different from hauling a big piece of wood in your hand.
Jacob Johnson
Well, I would personally give said player a "discount" on grappling skills. A soft respec if you will.
Adam Carter
>A good arrow tip will penetrate plate >Your shield is used for parrying and deflecting instead of just absorbing
I don't know how you fucked up so bad, but you did. PLATE is made of hard metal surfaces so they can be SHAPED and be given deflecting angles, that's quite literally the main purpose of it. It's not more effective against arrows because it's thicker or something, arrows just can't bite it. That's why pollaxes and warhammers exist.
You're half right about shields though, they ARE used for deflecting and parrying blows, but ironically, it's the other way around for arrows. They're intended to be unpenetrable by arrows. Most shields do not have a large glancing surface for arrows to bounce off of, and those that do have glancing surfaces (bosses) are, surprise, made that way to parry melee attacks.
Just use your brain here. If plate was so shit against arrows, why do you think knights and such wore it? For fun?
Jack Diaz
Yeah I don't give a shit about this autistic realism shit. All I care about is that +2 AC bonus the shield gives me on top of my full plate's 18 AC.
Actually I'm building a half-elf sword and board cleric atm. I have 13 levels to work with and I'm going Forge domain. Building him as a tank who uses spell power to dish out a little damage and do some battlefield control. I'm thinking of doing a 1 level fighter dip for the martial weapon proficiency and a fighting style so I can do the classic shield and warhammer thing.
Any advice?
Brayden Nelson
Your plan seems solid and you're already playing an easy mode class. You won't need any further help.
Colton Ramirez
>If plate was so shit against arrows, why do you think knights and such wore it? For fun?
Well it looks good...
Kevin Bailey
The gods gave me two hands.
I use them both for my weapon.
Jordan Gomez
In a world with weird monsters and giants, big two-handed weapons are probably the best choice you can go with. A giant won't care for your piddly dagger but a greatsword might give it pause.
Isaac Bennett
>obligatory superior mobility comment
Jordan Baker
If it's giants you're dealing with, pit traps will be your best choice.
Ayden Allen
Cannons duh.
Gavin Davis
t. person who has never used a shield while wearing armor
Landon Martin
Most of us haven't. This isn't the middle ages, user.
Christopher Moore
GURPS as always gets you covered here.
7th Sea (first edition) has some buckler and small shield styles. Also Panzerfaust.
Ethan Collins
Why'd they stop using shields in heavy armor?
Xavier Robinson
And some of us have.
And believe me, you want that shield to take the blow as opposed to your armor, because your arm can move with the blow and absorb it, rather than taking a massive shock to the chest, waist, back, or hips, all of which ache for days even with blunted weaponry.
Jayden Foster
Two things.
First, no serious martial art expects you to get hit. Dudes in Talhoffer's manual aren't decked out in dragon age armor, they're fighting in civilian clothes. Yet they are not using shields. Not getting hit is built into the stances, the strikes and the legwork. What armor did was a)make mistakes and bad luck not immaterially lethal, because it reduces the spectrum of attacks that can disable or kill you, and b)protected you from threats you are not aware of, which is a big deal in huge pitched battles that open up with arrow volleys then turn into a messy ten-hour melee where men pass out from exhaustion and you can't be sure one of your friends is watching your back and you can't afford to turn around to check. Shield requires you to be able to respond to threats, and not make a mistake. So, it doesn't help in any situation where you'd depend on your armor.
Second, plate armor is really, really fucking good. It protects from cutting and stabbing better than anything else, AND it's pretty damn good against blunt trauma, which you could only defend against with padding before. Plate, even shitty munitions plate, basically forced all serious armies to switch to large two-handed weapons with spikes and narrow heads that would be good at punching through plate. A shield a)won't help much against a polearm, b)means you can't use a polearm yourself.
So you have martial arts that provided adequate defense without the use of a shield, and armor that ushered in an age of wrestling, large weapons and impact warfare, and also kept your bacon safe in the heat of battle, and ranged weapon that were now competing against several millimeters of forget metal, not some light wood with leather stretched over it. Shield might have been of use to a poor levy or an archer who was expected to join the melee with his cutlass and assist the men at arms and dismounted knights.
Dylan Adams
How, if any way at all, would you say a shield expert's skills and proficiencies would benefit him were his shield traded away to a full plate armor?
