How does Veeky Forums feel about Primaris Marines lore-wise now that we know that normal Marines can get upgraded into...

So you want the Minotaurs?

>Space Wolves.
>Russ comes back
>Only those who Russ chooses can become Primiris Marines
>WE EINHERJAR NOW

Why would a helmeted Marine need a scoped bolt rifle? Let alone a Primaris who are supposed to be the best of the best of the best boarding on super powered in reflex and hand eye coordination to name two? Don't Marine helmets have HUD's like Marine Terminators do? What would be the point of a scope if you have targeting assistance built into your armor? The lenses of a Space Marine helmet can even zoom like a scope last time I checked.

The scope can easily be a more magnifed scope than the lenses in a marine helmet. Unless you want every marine to have telescopic snail eyes.

If all marines have the potential for Primaris upgrades, then why aren't the Grey Knights immediately getting upgraded as I type this?

They don't upgrade existing space marines to Primaris. They're all made new.

Scope is superior optics than helmet lenses.

They need to explain logically, and in details consistent to the setting, exactly HOW the fuck Cawl made these mutant behemoths. Or they'll forever be "cool models but too bad about the fluff" for me.

We know precisely, often down to the length of time, how teenagers are turned into the post-human geneocyborg astartes. These primaris astartes are going to need a whole lot more handwavium to explain their enhanced durability - but more importantly - their supposed increased resistance to chaos.

Nope, they said existing Marines can be upgraded in the live Q&A.

Grey Knights probably can't be Primed at least yet, since they have a unique gene-seed that Cawl won't have had access to.
In addition they'd probably be very hesitant to stray from their Emperor approved formula.

Where do you incomprehensible retards come from? They've stated in the Q&A that existing space marines can be upgraded to primaris space marines. It's been shouted over the entire internet so you must live under a rock.

Except they do. Gene-seed replacement is a well-known practice, the original GK grand masters were made out of first founding marines that very way.

Well, they're grown in vats, and they can be applied to existing marines, I assume Primiris marines are simply given an extra boost of something like Macro-steroids or just some slight gene-therapy on the gene-seed itself.

Yes, but on a more massive scale and maybe less bitter. I could see them being... more candid on their loyalty? If that makes sense.

So you would have the new marines, fresh and improved. The new toys improved for battle, but lacking experience and maybe lacking the more specialised non combat organs. They also are less independent and more of a tool, in every sense of the words.
And you have the old marines, with their experiences, their history, their independence, the knowledge of their sectors, their relations and more adaptability. And their ability to say no to the Adeptus Terra when they fuck up.

>They need to explain logically, and in details consistent to the setting, exactly HOW the fuck Cawl made these mutant behemoths.

He was working off of the Emperor's plans, and wrangled in some Custode enhancements.

>supposed increased resistance to chaos.

They said they're far more specialized, only doing one thing. They're rain man like combat autists.

Yeah, nah, Because the Minotaurs are a shitheap of a concept anyway.

You don't see the ridiculous precedent of a guy with a helmet that can zoom looking into a scope that can zoom more?

And if a Marine needs extra bullshit, isn't that what the super scopes that can be attached to their helmets are for?

I'm going to get some sprues with tactica helm on them and get a scoped bolter and make the most tacticool smurf marine I can. That way he can zoom, while he zooms, while he zooms. I'll name the fucker Nikon.

They're basically Corax's Raptors without the Alpha Legion's interference and with more time to develop.

Why you mad tho?

The vat growing doesn't sit well with me either - Imperial forays into cloning normally end in disaster (Krieg) or when they work, extreme misfortune (the imperial guard army made of clones of imperial guard heroes who suffer a fate similar to the Lamenters).

Macro-steroids / gene-therapy / custodes enhancements all don't sound like its something that's going to lead to fast reinforcements. Anything Custodes related we know takes an extreme amount of resources and time. So what, a million primaris marines take the field, are slaughtered, and then take thousands of years to replace?

Hmm, the "specialised fighting / combat autism" might lead to something like The Eldar Paths, but for Marines.

Reallllly hope they don't just half ass this one, else there's no reason for Sons of Antaeus, The Exorcists, or shit, the Grey Knights themselves to even exist if everyone can just be Primaris.

They finally made truescale marines but didnt have the balls to replace the old sculpt like they did for 4th edition.

I guess eventually we'll see primaris only

Why do you think he'd be unable to link his vision to his scope?

Careful if he can zoom so much that he could stand on a spire of Mars and watch an SoB taking a shit in the Ordo Hereticus building on Holy Terra, he could get in trouble.

Does anyone else see this as a transition to "truescale" that still allows oldmarines to coexist? I wouldn't be surprized if the concept of "Primaris marine" got forgotten down the road once it outlived its purpose of introducing new models.

I woild have liked them to be bigger "cheap" marines. They're physically superior but less training gives them WS/BS 4+ and lower Ld.

Space marine helmets have auto senses (which are like heightened senses sight) and a mini map and camera feeds. Fitting a scope in with all that would be an extra step, and unnecessary.

Also i know of no rules anywhere in 40k where a telescopic sight can be upgraded into a helmet.

Just expected people on Veeky Forums of all places on the internet to be up to date on the shitstorm and information surrounding the megamarines.

It is Veeky Forums though

Do Primaris Terminators look any different?

They will.

No info yet, just intercessor squads, special weapon squads (presumed) and the primaris dreadnought (unseen).

I think unless they replace all the special characters we wont see full Primaris for a long time.

And 30k will continue to use the non-Primaris Marines.

We haven't seen any, and no Primaris would have been around long enough to reach the requisite rank.

>primaris dreadnought
Let me guess, Gus the Primaris that didn't come out quite right is unfortunate Prime Dread?

It's obviously not just a normal scope. It probably houses a bunch of computers and sensors, allowing for better compensation for abnormal gravity, debris, strange magnetic fields, and chaos shit

>no Primaris would have been around long enough

We've seen Primaris Captains.
Told about Primaris Dreadnoughts.
But Primaris Termis are off the table?

Then we've also got the fact that current Marines can be upgraded to Primaris Marines.

The word Primaris in a 40k context still just makes my mind go straight to psykers.

Presumably, unless they time-skip the fluff to handwave combat losses of mighty primaris heroes already.

The scope has a special data image of the Emperor looking proudly and giving a thumbs up every time the Marine using the scope gets a kill.

Yeah, I'd have much prefered bigger but less technically superior marine designs for them.

4+ skill, 3 wounds, str/t 5 and medium-sized bases.

The name of their squad type literally means "mediators" as well, strange naming convention all around.

>The name of their squad type literally means "mediators" as well

It means some one who intervenes.
As in they're intervening to save the Imperium.

I want that unfortunate vat grown fuck to look like an abomination stuffed into that goddamn coffin tank.

Bonus points if he has a positive attitude about things.

>requisite rank
They automatically outrank any manlets though

Like an interceder? OK that's a more aggressive sounding translation.
"go betweens" seemed a little childish, but would be kinda funny in relation to all the simple-minded enthusiatic depictions fa/tg/uys have been coming up with.

The Imperium is fucked enough that Gully gets to play with his dads chemistry set but I still can't field a nice Legio Cybernetica army without autistic imperial screeching.

What a time to be alive.

I don't mind them. We clearly don't have all the info on them yet so people jumping to conclusions about stuff like Cawl being a better geneticist than Big E should be ignored. There's definitely going to be some kind of drawback or flaw these guys have compared to regular Marines. I didn't like the idea of them being a new breed to completely replace old Marines but the fact that old Marines can get a Primaris upgrade satiates my autism on that front.

I think it was a lose/lose for GW no matter how they went about this announcement, either they have no lore reason and just replace the most popular army in the game and say 'deal with it' or try this approach and rile up the lorefags and say they don't replace old Marines (they will, give it an edition or two) to appease collectorfags so they won't have to replace everything.

Well yeah, that's supremely obvious. Anyone who thinks old Marines are long for this world is very naive. This is phase one of a Transition. Once people are comfortable, old Marines will slowly start disappearing until it's just the new models

>Like an interceder?

Yes. They essentially mean the same thing.

You know what to do, Magos.

More important it's a term that can be copyrighted, unlike tactical squad.

Again, we're seeing AoS,.and the driving factor is 1. Selling all new models to long-term fans who have old huge collections and 2. Making there lore more easily packaged and defensible in a claims court.

GW won't rest until third party market is buried

>chapters are reinforced with primaris marines
>primaris marines organize into their own squads and literally look down on the old marines
>manlet marines grow ever more jealous and frustrated until they fall to Chaos or suicide charge into a xenos horde
>eventually all loyalist marines will be primaris

>More important it's a term that can be copyrighted, unlike tactical squad.

How? Intercessor is an actual word and no more copyrightable than tactical.

Was this Gully's plan all along, even 10,000 years ago? The sly dog.

The thought of a Grey KNight going Primaris and using a Nemesis Dreadknight exo-suit amuses me.

I have an unavoidable need to stack the stupid as high as it goes. Like a Primaris in Centurion Armour, it would please me.

Eventually I can see the Long Claws and the other Space yiff unit types that are too far gone being the only old Marine's left.

Black Dragons too, you can't Primaris the Marines that are already fuck mutated.

My understanding is that the Emperor, being the secretive guy he is, largely developed the original Adeptus Astartes template on his own, using his own genes as a base (since the space marines are based on the primarchs, who in turn are based on Emps himself).

There are a few problems with this.

First, this means Emps was basically doing the genetics solo. If there was a procedure that could have made a better marine that didn't occur to him, or a flaw in the process that didn't occur to him, it went unnoticed as long as it didn't result in fundamental damage. In engineering this is a potentially serious problem: not enough cooks, instead of too many. While the Emperor might have had some techpriests on hand it's unlikely that he let them make major inputs on the template, and it suffered as a result.

Second, Emps is OLD. Literally tens of thousands of years old by the time he started development of the program. You dont think humanity has undergone some fundamental biological shifts in that time? There's something he might not have accounted for right there. He was prideful, we know that. He might have simply assumed he was the BEST and built the whole system around emulating himself.

Cawl is different. First, he's had time - and a LOT of it - to tweak the template in any way that might have occurred to him over the ten millennia of R&D he's had to work with. Second, he's a fresh brain on the problem - that alone says, to me, that he would be able to spot optimization problems the Emperor couldn't. Third, being Martian, and Great Crusade Martian, for that matter, he has no reason to hold the Emperor's genetic template sacred. To him Emps is just a man. THE man, but that's the mind, not the body. If a better product can be obtained by tweaking the setup like THIS, and there's no more danger of corruption, then he has no reason not to.

Basically, Cawl may not have invented the Space Marines, but there's no reason to think he couldn't make them better.

I honestly would have preferred the resurrection of the Thunder Warriors. Reviving an old technology to re-create very powerful but biologically unstable warriors in a time of crisis seems more setting appropriate to me. Frankly the whole primaris thing sounds incredibly hamfisted cover for their true scale/age of shitmar 40k/copyright shenanigans. They could have taken five more minutes of time to come up with a better backstory than they're super duper marines.

I'm okay with them. They look more like Space Marines should and they function on the tabletop more like Space Marines should.

More uncommon, Intercessor as it applies to a squad of fantasy sci-fi supersoldiers is less generic than "tactical squad"
>Russ goes renegade because muh wolfy wolf, my wolf time, muh tradition, muh rune priests
>Space Wolves become legit vikings prowling the stars, attacking and looting their enemies be they chaos or Imperium
>Magnus gets huffy like an offended nerd hipster "wow wow you guys invited HIM FUCK THIS REEE"
>somehow abandons chaos completely
>Thousand Sons rejoin the fold being completely replaced with Primaris, what few original TS remain are interred in dreadnought like spooky ghost mummy robots
>ITS EVEN CALLED A SARCOPHIGUS

With any halfway decent group you can.

I'm literally thinking of going codex compliant from my DA successor chapter just because I am sick and tired of not having the extremely fun variants of terminator armor and Centurion armor.

>First, this means Emps was basically doing the genetics solo
He did not, did you notice how organs are named Becther's gland, Larraman's organ , Lyman's ear? They are named after Terran scientist that made it for Emps.

>More uncommon

Still can't copyright it.

In the context of a sci Fi supersoldier plastic figurine you can

Are the primaris shoulder pads the same as the old SM ones?
Can I use pic related on them?

Yes.

So with the Imperium and the Dark Imperium becoming two separate army choices, I assume the DI aren't going to get any Primaris to play with, so what will they get instead? The DI are probobly going to go full on zealot like the Black Templars do, but what? A bigger nastier Inquisition daemon host?

Sisters need this. +1 Ld

You can no more do it than you can do tactical squad in the same vein.

>So with the Imperium and the Dark Imperium becoming two separate army choices

Says who?

Shoulderpads and heads should work still.

How would any Primaris marine get to the dark sector to help? The whole point of the new standard is that the DI are cut off and in a desperate fight.

How do we know this? Is this from a HH novel, or something else? Also note that this doesn't fundamentally dissuade the issue. The scientists might have simply been told, 'how do you make a human into someone like the Emperor' instead of 'how do you make a human ad good as he possibly can be. There's no telling how much Emps' ego held back the work.

Secondly, and I didn't have the space to raise this point in my first post, we KNOW the Space Marines are not top quality. Look at the Custodes. They are, to a one, stronger and tougher than marines. So clearly some corners were cut in the name of either experience or efficiency (remember that the original marines were developed before the Great Crusade, and therefore before the imperium as we know it was established). Emps didn't design the Marines for production by the same inustrial capability that Cawl did; Bellisarius may simply have had more 'money' to work wirh.

>How would any Primaris marine get to the dark sector to help?

The warp corridors.

if you really need a suspension of disbelief, marines are for fighting in close quarters combat. the scope is linked to their targeting sensors, and when they are in cover, they simply lift the gun up out of cover and shoot, using the "scope" of the gun to do the work their helmet would normally do.

And if the helmet gets fucked, and they need it on for protection, they still have the scope.

Do you feel better with this explanation user?

I have no doubt that the Primaris were created to put an end to people always wanting to field Custos and only now being able to, but are they equivalent?

Its a shit asspull, they should have made normal marines bigger

Honestly the idea it has a camera linked to the helmet so they have a guncam for tac analysis and blind shooting makes perfect sense

s4 t4 2w 3+ vs
s5 t5 2w 2+

Cawl tried, but, the Custodes are a force apart.

Probably not. But that's not to say there's no middle ground between a Marine and a Custode.

You could give them all the genetics and only normal Marine training, for example. You could give them SOME genetics and SOME training above the marine standard, but not at the Custodes level. It's basically a question of what you can get away with with the acceptable cost per unit you have. Cawl found a way to get more out of that than Emps did, or he had a more open budget to begin with. Either way it works.

I like the thought of them being utterly useless at anything other than getting stuck in on the front line but being tip top bigdicks at that.

In the older fluff from 3rd ed, it was often mentioned that what we think of as "cameras" and "huds" and "buttons" are extremely crude and archaic in terms of 40ks technology. Hence shit like "preysight" or "activation runes" and the like. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek, but essentially a lot of equipment like the marines and arbites bolters and shotguns has a whole crapton of autosensors that feed either into scopes they look through or directly into their helmets. This is without even mentioning the machine spirits - Are they real? Does prayer and unguents placate or, or is it simply degenerated maintenance rituals elevated to religious dogma. It's left up to the player to interpret.

I like the end goal of making marines the towering badasses they're meant to be, both in terms of the physical miniatures and their increased durability. Fluff wise I'm not sold on how they're getting there. It's not clear whether the first batch are clones, but if they're getting away from the process of making "regular" marines I won't be happy. That arcane process was one of the best bits of their fluff, both in terms of the procedures and how recruits are sourced and indoctrinated.

In an ideal world most Primaris marines after the first batch will be upgrades from regular marines. A 20th step, after the black carapace and potentially one that involves waiting decades for geneseed to mature and/or for the honour to be earned.

If the "fresh" Primaris marines are indeed clones then I hope GW spends time developing fluff for the reactions of existing marines to these fully grown interlopers who know little of their chapter's history and have no existing bonds with their new brothers.

Machine spirits are explicitly real in larger more advanced peices of tech like fighting vehicles

Anything with an onboard pseudo AI

To say nothing of titans

Ok, thanks anons.

Not him but it worked like that for technology. Arkhan Land discovered the speeder and raider. thats old fluff as well i believe so maybe it's the same with genetics. It would explain it but i honestly think they've never even thought about it. just cool names

>A 20th step, after the black carapace and potentially one that involves waiting decades for geneseed to mature and/or for the honour to be earned.

>The legion of primaris Marines were recruits gathered right after the heresy/excess Ultramarines

I can dig it

Yeah, sorry I was specifically referencing personal equipment. Imperial war machines are a whole other beast entirely. Is it pseudo-ai from advanced computing like the Land Raider? Is is literally the brain matter of enormous predatory creatures forming the wetware of Battle-Titans that the Princeps must wrest control from? So much post-DAoT tech is throwing shit at the wall and seeing what stuck and what wouldn't come back to bite them on the ass.

>How does Veeky Forums feel about Primaris Marines lore-wise
No fucks given, just release them already GW you kike cunts!

2+/3+ is the armour not the genetics

>Primaris Marines lore-wise now that we know that normal Marines can get upgraded into Primaris Marines?
New primaris Sicarius model when?

>makes new marines
>makes brand new mk.X armour to go with them
>new armour only fits new marines
>still not artificer-level

I'm counting it together with the whole package because the Custodes and the Primaris are never going to be separate from their armour.