Instead of spamming 10 "could Earth defeat x faction from 40k" threads a day, let's settle the matter once and for all by building a counts-as list to represent modern human forces on the tabletop.
My instinct is to have Western infantry represented as Conscripts with no characters attached, and special forces as Guardsmen squads. This is due to the disparity in equipment more than anything else. As for vehicles I don't know.
Thoughts?
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A modern first world soldier would probably have a guardsman statline, but with an autogun and no access to any upgrades.
Really jingles my ningles
Then would shit tier militaries be Conscripts with autoguns? Would anyone get Commissars?
M1 Abrams = Land Raider :^)
let's be honest, the imperium is a shit show and we can do anything they do on the ground 100x better, we are the dark age of technology
this guy has it
Unit: US-Marines
WS3 BS4 S3 T3 I3 W1 A2 Sv6+ Ld7
Weapon skill is aerage, ballistic skill should be slightly higher for well trained troops. 6+ save, because we dont have armor that can resist a lasgun. Flak armor holds to lasgun fire=5+, so by logic we probably have 6+ armor for everyone in the military. Our rifles and pistols are probably S3 or S2. Also, no commissars for us. We should prabably also be fucked over by leadership tests.
Planetary Defence Force troops with autoguns, bad stats and crappy armoured vehicles.
It's worth remembering that humanity in 40k are superhuman by our standards, wide scale genetic engineering before the fall created a species with default capabilities significantly greater than an ordinary human of today.
The Imperium of Man would classify today's Earth as somewhere in between a medieval planet and a civilized planet.
We don't have personal laserweapons nor flying cars, so we don't count as a civilized planet, but we aren't exactly medieval either.
We have infantry capable of fighting like a IFV? We have fighters and bombers with vehicle level armor? We have ninja snipers who can snipe people form kilometers away with trick shots after spending months in the same spot waiting?
Real world weapons have ranges that dramatically outperform what you see in tabletop. Regarding damage output, humanity has come up with weapons that are anywhere from dangerous in close combat to 'can't be used in a military theater, because it will destroy the entire military theater.' so we do already have the destructive tech.
So assume guard with tanks, no walkers, no psykers, and extremely silly artillery and air support
It's better to go by fluff than by mechanics which are intentionally abstracted/simplified for tabletop. Guard artillery can fire just as far, if not further, than our own, and they have fighter aircraft that are fast, tough and powerful enough to enter and leave orbit under their own power. We're nothing to them.
Neat. What about vehicles? Should an Abrams be a counts-as Sentinel?
Guardsmen with Autoguns, access to Autocannon, Heavy Stubber, Missile Launchers, Mortars, Frag Krak grenades, Democharges, Sv5+
Special Forces are Veterans or Stormtroopers with Autoguns instead of Lasguns, access to same equipment as regulars
Valkyrie as Helicopter gunship of your choice
Chimera as IFV of your choice
All Las weapons become Auto weapons so Autoguns, Autopistols and Autocannons
Scatter Lasers become Assault Cannons
Now we just need counts as models, anyone got a link to cheap 28mm plastic modern day infantry?
This. I always forget this.
Also, our morale would be low as hell. Like leadership 2 or 3 low. Remember, most Imperial guardsmen have been subjected to constant government propaganda, and have probably seen alot more shit just living on their hive world than our soldiers do in their entire lives. And when they get sent out to war, they have people specifically trained to shoot them to prevent cowardice.
Imagine modern soldiers fighting against something like Necrons, Daemons or Tyranids. They would wet their goddamn pants.
Modern MBT counts as Leman Russ
>Real world weapons have ranges that dramatically outperform what you see in tabletop.
Good you prefaced your post by saying you're an autistic retard, and that we should just ignore your post.
Removed the >> because fuck giving your retarded ass a (you).
Yeah, just imagine the Americans or Russians using a neutron bomb on Imperials...
Imperials that have been nearly impervious to cosmic radiation for around 20,000 years or possibly even more.
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not cheap though
yes
This right here.
No personal laser weapons? No flying cars? No actual hoverboards?
We don't even count as a civilized world.
Thanks, plastic modern models are so rare though. I see a gap in the market /tg
Come on now, we're pretty civil. We don't all kill anyone who slights us and we have a system of sorts.
But back on topic, what we have troops and elites choices, fast attack and heavy support choices.
We just need character choices.
Gen. Mattis as Creed
lasgun pierces 8m thick concrete
The Imperium classifies all planets based on their technological level, which determines their tithes.
>Mattis is noted for his intellectualism and interest in the study of military history and world history, with a personal library that once included over 7,000 volumes...
Thanks user. So we have a Creed counts as. Now what about Pask and Marbo?
Fuck the imperium, we can figure out that shit later. After we've been extreminatus for being a planet of Blanks.
Right now, we need just the right level of autism to make counts as modern units from the IG army list.
>between medieval and civil
Feral - Medieval - Industrial - Atomic - Civil - Imperial - TECH HERESY
We would be at Atomic
Possibly with "Space" or "early Space" there between Atomic and Civil
We're still Atomic at best. Possibly industrial
Does that mean we get 30k Phosphor? I think it does. Also, can we get some Rad phage weapons?
Those would be TECH HERESY level
Seems to me if we're fighting the Imperium we wouldn't hesitate to drop some nukes, therefore Minuteman III as Deathstrike counts-as
Shit. But don't we have those today? Dirty bombs and white phosphorus? Does that make us DOUBLE HERETEKS?
There is no Atomic tithe level. Atomic power has no value in a universe where any random schmuck can just rev up a fusion power reactor.
Don't fuck with Phosphex. Phosphex is so fucked up a tech-priest destroyed the STC for it.
A TECH PRIEST
DESTROYED AN STC
Our Wiley Peat shit is nothing on Phosphex, which literally stays active and contaminates an area for LONGER than rad weapons.
Dirty bombs, rad weapons and neutron weapons won't do much against Imperials seeing how Imperials don't give a shit about cosmic radiation. You'll just end up making the battlefield 100% unsafe to regular humans just to kill a few Imperials and injure some others.
This has nothing to do with tithe levels you goddamn autist, it's just getting tabletop stats for Earth forces
Yes! This is my shit!!!! Goddamn it, humans are fucking awesome. How do we represent IEDs and C4/the things that go big bang but are man portable? Demolition Charges and Melta Bombs?
cosmic background radiation is many orders of magnitude less severe than ionizing radiation friendo
You're the goddamn autist here.
A guy earlier in the thread mentioned that modern day Earth's techlevel doesn't even count as the techlevel of a civilized world. Modern day Earth counts as an advanced Medieval world, ironically.
Our modern weapons count as medieval to the Imperium of Man.
Cosmic radiation is a constant barrage. Anything that halts cosmic radiation is strong enough to make (our current) rad weapons seriously handicapped.
>The Autogun is a ballistic projectile weapon similar in appearance and operation to the assault rifles of ancient Terra, but the Imperium's technological advances allow these weapons to use caseless ammunition with projectiles made of metal, plastic or ceramics. The weapons are themselves constructed with plasteel, increasing their rate of fire and reliability. There are many different patterns and models of Autogun produced across the width and breadth of the Imperium. The typical Autogun may not be incredibly accurate or as reliable as a Lasgun, but will make up for it with a higher rate of fire and cheap and readily available ammunition, standardised in preloaded magazines.
Our modern weapons aren't even equivalent to Autoguns yet.
True.
While that is a really cool story, we have to separate fluff from stats. So our White Phosphor is Poisoned +4 and doesn't have the Creeping Death rule?
Again, lets translate that into rules. So our nuclear shit is good enough for them? How do we turn that into rules? 40k fluff can be such a mess, thank you C.S. Goto
Close enough as a counts as
Read the OP
Who the fuck uses weird neutron bombs when you have perfectly serviceable cluster bombs and nice fusion bombs in multimegaton range?
The following poster apparently >>
Those saying 1st world militaries would have lower leadership than IG, I have to disagree
It is true IG are bombarded with propaganda constantly, but modern soldiers are trained and coaxed to think for themselves and apply lateral thinking to problems. IG are often just taught how to shoot and take care of their gear.
And while our soldiers lack genetic engineering, they are supplied and fed better than IG, who make do with protein pastes and hard biscuit. Our nutritional standards are much higher, which generally leads to a much healthier, fitter soldier.
Given we lack machine spirits, cogitators, etc, but tend to be better trained, and combined with all the factors mentioned above:
1st world soldiers should be baseline guardsman with slightly lower armor due to lack of flak, issued Autoguns that due to their slightly more primitive nature have some kind of jamming rule. Didn't bolters used to jam in TT? Or was that just space hulk? That rule could be knicked.
Grunts are covered as gaurdsmen with autorifles.
But the signature modern abilities are shaped charge warheads (on eeeverything - so boost AP values and add rocket launchers - statted as single-shot plasma weapons maybe) and accurate artillery (some way to reduce scatter).
You are a fucking retard, stand 1 AU away from the Sun and detonate a nuclear bomb in your face and tell me they're equivalent amounts of radiation
a catachan jungle fighter can wrestle an ork and not lose
So could a modern US marine.
Better trained to fight other humans user.
Leadership doesn't mean 'lateral thinking' it means 'not running like a pussy bitch when a devouring swarm of tyranids clamber over the defence emplacements'
>Modern Assault Rifle
Range: 18" (same as a hellgun, less than a lasgun/autogun)
STR: 3
AP: -
Special: Rapid Fire
>Modern 1st World Infantryman
Standard Guardsman stat line, slightly worse save due to lack of Flakarmor
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
Ld: 7
Sv: 6+
Wat.
A modern first world military (by which I mainly mean the USA) would whoop the ass of the IG on the ground, if you think otherwise you're just plain retarded. We have stat comparisons from 40k for modern tanks and weapons and they are inferior.
Our soldiers would be guardsmen equivalents with better BS, better Initiative and better Leadership. They would have equivalent generic weapons with better ranges, and far superior special weapons. Our sniper rifles shit on the Imperium's sniper rifles. Our machine guns shit on theirs. And when you get to heavier stuff there is no comparison, we are far ahead. Something like a fucking Basilisk still exists in 40k en masse and all their fighter aircraft are seriously fucking retarded.
We would lose out only to numbers or support from the Imperial Navy (because we have nothing equivalent to that in space). And we would lose to any non-Imperial force from 40k in decent numbers, but against equivalent numbers of Imperial troops we should win. Even if Space Marines are involved as long as they don't have space support, honestly - I don't think a chapter of Space Marines could beat the modern US army.
>t. Marine Recruitment officer
With extra emphasis on officer.
If you are near enough to an enemy in modern war that they can "climb over your defences" you have fucked up so many times it's not worth thinking about.
Or in for this game, I suppose you spent points on extra Somali militiamen instead of brigade MLRS batteries for DPICM grid square removal.
>all this fucking around
Whats being stated already exists. It's called a Cultist. Modern Infantry are cultists. Ditch the option to take bolter or power weapons, remove Servants of Chaos rule.
>The Autogun is a ballistic projectile weapon similar in appearance and operation to the assault rifles of ancient Terra, but the Imperium's technological advances allow these weapons to use caseless ammunition with projectiles made of metal, plastic or ceramics. The weapons are themselves constructed with plasteel, increasing their rate of fire and reliability.
Imperial Autoguns are defacto superior
Functionally they're clearly not though, because an autogun with that description is the same as one literally welded together from scrap metal by a dumbfuck ganger on Necromunda and in terms of range and stopping power they're hugely inferior to what we have today.
>in terms of range and stopping power they're hugely inferior to what we have today.
Based on what metric?
Are we somehow translating abstract numbers from TT and extrapolating inches into yards?
Are we comparing ability to rip apart aggressive bipedal fungus monsters? Because we can't really establish a metric for that since Orks don't exist
We don't have much to go on for comparison besides GW's occasional retarded drawing or 'design', which is done by white middle class british men who've probably never seen a gun let alone fired one or know anything about guns, or tanks, or any kind of Mil-Hardware
We either have to accept the fluffs nonsensical insistence they're superior due to casememe ammunition and higher heat tolerances/fire rates, or settle and consider them equal.
But it isn't modern war you dipstick, it's a war against extra-galactic bio monsters which are nigh impervious to future weapons half the time let alone the primitive shit we have by comparison.
Modern soldiers are not trained for that at all.
Neither are Imperial Guard, who are sent in blind and executed for seeing too much, depending on what fluff you read.
Fuck off retard. The only rule on executing IG veterans getting automatically executed is when Demons are involved, because they can literally rewrite reality to turn you into a Machurian candidate if you're not properly warded and protected from demonic influence.
>Are we comparing ability to rip apart aggressive bipedal fungus monsters?
Iremember the days when GW wasn't afraid of the idea of Orks breeding, before they went fucktarded and made them all fungus.
>stat comparisons
>thinking the tabletop which is balanced around creating a fun game matters
Fuck off.
>fighter aircraft being an issue
>when the basic infantry weapon is a focused light energy weapon carried en masse by thousands of men and able to punch through concrete
Jets aren't going to survive long against light speed gunfiree
That's not the disadvantage you seem to think it is. Fighting super space aliens means the COIN bureaucracy vanishes; which means artillery response time is
Good thing they fly higher than people can see (above the 15 thousand foot mark) and usually around 40 thousand.
I'm guessing that's farther in inches than a lasgun shoots anyway.
You cannot even field a modern infantry fireteam or platoon using the rules proper, but you could makeshift something.
For an IG Platoon as an modern SBCT platoon you could do something like this.
Platoon Commander (PL)
Veteran Guardsman (PSG)
Guardsman w/ Medi-Pak (Medic)
Guardsman w/ Vox-Caster (RATELO)
Master of Ordnance (FO)
Line SQDs (3x)
Veteran Guardsman w/ Vox Caster (SQD LDR)
Guardsman w/ Vox Caster (ATL)
Guardsman w/ Heavy Stubber
Guardsman w/ Combi-Stubber/GL
Guardsman w/ Missile Launcher
Guardsman w/ Vox Caster (BTL)
Guardsman w/ Heavy Stubber
Guardsman w/ Combi-Stubber/GL
Guardsman w/ Missile Launcher
All mounted in Chimera/Taurox
WPNs SQD:
Veteran Guardsman w/ Vox Caster (WSL)
Heavy Weapon Team w/ Heavy Bolter
Guardsman (AB)
Heavy Weapon Team w/ Heavy Bolter
Guardsman (AB)
All mounted in Chimera/Taurox
Stubbers for M4s
Heavy Stubbers for M249s, since there is no equivalent in the rules.
Heavy Bolters for M240s, since there is no equivalent in the rules.
Missile Launchers for AT4s.
You're assuming that modern weapons do anything to a tyranid, especially in the sort of numbers they tool about with.
Point is more that it doesn't matter - you were saying we had better leadership stats, but that's not close to true.
>tabletop rules balance compared to real life rather than going by fluff
Good lord, you're literally retarded
A lasgun ought to be able to slice through an Abrams if they got a chance.
A single conscript IG company could overthrow a small country on earth.
how easily is it to hit with a lasgun? i know it's not just a laser pointer but still
M240s are no heavy bolter. Role wise, yeah, but technologically they're heavy stubbers.
Plus you need an extra missile launcher for the Javelin team on the weapons squad.
Then .50cals and Mark19s on all the Strykers, some possibly with the Javelin mount or an LRAS.
Then more points for the pair of Apaches that inevitably show up once the firefight starts.
you're exaggerating but i agree
Yeah well there are no equivalents to all the weapon systems we use in the Army in the Astra Militarum rulebook.
The Javelins are organic to the line squads and just stay strapped to the Stryker. At least in my unit, they aren't part of the weapons squad. I couldn't find anything to represent the Javelin anyway.
i would imagine it would be impossible to kill a tyranid hormagaunt before it catches you with a 9mm pistol unless you can kill its brain
hell even rippers got thick chitin armor on their heads
Leadership is a different user.
Numbers aren't an advantage when dense-packed into a kill zone. That's why modern armies spread out.
Shaped charges will have no problem against anything less than 100x stronger material strengths. If it's not exotic non-baryonic matter (neutronium, in which case how are your aliens not falling into the planetary core...) hydrodynamics applies.
You may not have noticed, but 40k doesn't have shaped charge technology, outside a few freak fluff references. Though accidental (and it wouldn't match the embiggened ww2 fluff) it's for good reason. Shaped charges make 40k style "heavy infantry" obsolete. Every grenade launcher is a plasma rifle, every GMG is a fully automatic plasma machine gun, every rocket launcher is a smart krak missile...every DPICM barrage is a rain of tens of thousands of warheads before bringing in the shrapnel.
>You're assuming that modern weapons do anything to a tyranid
They do, because autoweapons do.
Something else I wanted to get into... We know our trusty las guns and their mysterious super tech that is likely impossible in the real world but what do we know of their other weapons?
If a focused beam of energy is considered baseline trash by the other horrors of the galaxy then how powerful are the IG missile launchers? grenades? the flak armour they give to penal battalions must still be better than what we have? What about their communication skills and signals intelligence?
How powerful are IG mortars and plasma guns if its routinely used against Orks and Tyranids?
Hunter-Killer missiles would do it.
>the average guardsman is some kind of godly super-warrior with weapons and armor we can't even technologically conceive of
No.
if IG were fitted with modern day assault rifles they couldn't do shit
I suppose.
If you really wanted to get absurdly detailed with it, all the models would also have night fighting special rules, because NODs, and mark-lighters from Tau to represent the AN/PEQ15.
The only major differences would be that they'd be worse shots and ammo would be a gigantically bigger pain int the ass. The lasgun is of equivalent power to a modern day assault rifle.
We have no idea how powerful an autogun is. We know it works similar to our current tech but through the magic of future science, we dont quite know how advanced it is. Maybe its roughly the same but I am guessing 40,000 years is alot of time for their version of autoguns to be much much better than ours.
I didn't say that. But if the IG are taking a leman russ against a Carnifex then the main battle cannon must be powerful.
>A modern first world military (by which I mainly mean the USA) would whoop the ass of the IG on the ground
>I don't think a chapter of Space Marines could beat the modern US army
Either this is bait, or you're the biggest retard on this board right now.
IG with no Las, bolter, plasma, or melta tech. No sentinels or abhumans either, Or psykers. Autoguns, autocannons, heavy stubbers, flamers, mortars, missile launchers, cheaper throw away missile launchers, grenade launchers, auto grenade launchers being grenade launchers that are heavy 3 or something, battle cannons, vanquisher cannons, punisher cannons on fliers. Manticores, basilisks, and deathstrikes galore. Chimeras and taurox everywhere, chimeras with weaker battlecannons, trukks galore, with access to IG heavy weapons. Fuck loads of fliers. Drones.
Again, a random dumbfuck ganger on Necromunda is using and being killed, some of the time, by an autogun. An autogun is just a modern assault rifle.
But he is.
>physically superior to any man in our world in any area imaginable
>far mentally tougher
>has weapons and armor 40 000 years more advance (even with tech regression, we are talking literally dozens of millennia in the future)
Do you genuinely think this about the average random Guardsman?
>Real world weapons have ranges that dramatically outperform what you see in tabletop.
The tabletop ranges are abstracted on account of needing to be able to be played on a table. Though I suppose las weapons genuinely would have relatively short ranges on account of atmospheric scattering.
>Guardsmen and 40k humans in general regularly shown to be beyond peak human, genetic tampering in the past and harsh life conditions contributed to this
>used to fighting unimaginable horrors
>the basic average weapon is a fucking laser that functionally doesn't run out of ammo and could punch through a modern tank
I don't have to think anything, the facts are there.
40k humans are also regularly shown to live short lives, be poorly educated (the vast majority of the time), eat shitty food, and live in near-starving conditions inside the Hives.
Honestly, I don't think there's a good basis for comparison here. Guardsmen in the books that feature them are typically either "the best of the best" or "cannonfodder". Its probably safer to assume that most guardsmen are average modern humans (or thanks to a combination of good genetics but bad nutrition, the equivalent of) in quality.
Modern tactics are several generations more advanced than 40k. 40k centers around ww2 era statistical mechanized combat, with occasional excursions into the 1920s for muh grimdark or 1970s for muh advanced future tech.
>regularly shown to be beyond peak human
Cite your sources.
>I don't have to think anything
Sounds about right.
What's really interesting is the potential effects after conquest.
The Imperium doesn't have the same response to tactical innovations as the Mechanicum does to technological innovations, and most of Earth's tech is low-tier enough that some Mechanicum may accept it as "safe enough to be claimed, analyzed, and regurgitated".
Imagine if Imperium doctrine adapted in some situations to allow them to treat air support the way we treat modern air support.
Let's not forget the near-peer weapons. MLRS-delivered Hornet minefields, Scorpion smart mine networks everywhere a humvee can go, and Shadows spotting for nonstop artillery strikes. And MLRS, of course, the original steel rain.
MIRV'd Davy Crocketts on ATACMS