How come Warhammer has Chaos gods, but no Law gods? 1e Gods of Law notwithstanding

I think Sigmar, The Old Ones and the Elven, Dwarfen and remaining human Gods fit that role In AoS at least . Ironically they're often more divided than the Chaos gods.

>Law Gods
That's literally what the Emprah is, you doofus.

Gav Thorpe said all gods are part of the 4 greater powers

>How come Warhammer has Chaos gods, but no Law gods?

Because the opposite of Chaos is typically represented by the mundane universe.

I would say the Emperor is the God of Ambition. He personifies that ladder climbing asshole who steps on everyone to reach his unrealistic and stubborn goals.

The Warp is shaped by emotion. Emotion is chaotic. Law is dispassionate, cold, without energy or personality.

So what would an anti-Warp be like?

It would be a realm of duty and what existentialists call bad faith, the polite fictions that keep society going, all the things that we don't really believe but tell ourselves we believe.

Technically speaking, warp deities are manifestations of residual emotional energy waves when people die. Most organisms are in a very chaotic state, emotionally, upon dieing, thusly they will usually carr regrets, anger or fear over into the otherworld.
We can therefore assume that lawful warp entities are rare and vanishingly weak compared to chaotic entities, as thw latter are fed more regularly and more intensely.

The gods are a reflection of the times. The times are bad.

In WHFB they existed, but they weren't often referred to. They were replaced by race specific 'Gods' rather than universal Order vs Chaos.

>how come warhammer has chaos gods but no gods of law (excluding the gods of law)?

What did he mean by this

Arkyn, Donablas.

No that is literally Tzeentch.

As some anons said the four chaos gods also have some "good" characteristics but heavily warped in execution. But that's not the problem as it has potential if played right, is the low brow fluff writers that are chaosfags and shovel it as the endgame and hurr durr look how edgy is dis univerze all futile blah blah blah that just moves the machine to sell plastic soldiers. You can't blame geedubs for that as they are a fucking company but it's sad all the potential and fun just gone to waste to keep selling the big bad guys vs the forces of good but in space!

Wasn't Solkan pretty much Lawful Neutral personified, enforce the rules with an iron fist type of guy? You know, the one witch hunters used to worship before it was all Sigmar all the time.

Pretty much. Solkan was Lawful Neutral to the extreme, Arianka was Neutral to the neutral extreme, and Alluminas was Chaotic Neutral to the extreme.

I wonder who the fourth Law God is that GW never named or expanded on.

>Alluminas was Chaotic Neutral
>Alluminas
>Chaotic

No.

>I wonder who the fourth Law God is

There wasn't one. If you're simply trying to match numbers with the Chaos Gods then there'd be five, as Malal was canon at that time.

Alluminas was a disco ball of random light whose intentions were unknown sometimes even to the other Gods of Law. He wasn't evil but he's def the least orderly of the Order gods.

>there wasn't one

There was.

>he's def the least orderly of the Order gods.

No, he was hands down the purest incarnation of order.

>There was.

There wasn't.

You mean times are chaotic?

Basically, what things will be like after the heat death of the universe: cold, lifeless, uniform in its lack of anything interesting besides the occasional photon. And everything would be permanently frozen in time because otherwise something might change.

Warhammer 50k (one of the only good fanfics ever written) has a god of order come into being around the 50th millennium.
I swear it's good despite being a fanfic

The new lore of 40k as absolutely fucking horrible as it is hints to the concept of the Emperor becoming so powerful that he destroys Slaanesh and becomes a Chaos God of Order himself akin to the ones we saw in original WHF.

Gav Thorpe is shit, and the only things he writes that aren't shit is Dwarf lore and rules.

Emotion is chaotic only when it clashes.

Hence CHAOS gods of law.

Why does every thesis need an antithesis.

It's Machiavellian, it's mans inheritance to suffer.

I just came here to compliment OP on his fine taste.
Calvin and Hobbes for the win

Solken was Lawful Neutral. Basically St. Cuthbert in Warhammer Fantasy.

Arianka is basically the human Fantasy version of Ynnead, she was the embodiment of duty and morality and polar opposite of Slaanesh.

Alluminas was unknowable. Basically in the same manner as Tzeentch, but while Tzeentch is focused outwards Alluminas was focused inwards. Alluminas is unknowable but unchanging, even Tzeentch's myriad chaotic schemes fall into his perfect path. A mortal could claim to be in on Tzeentch's plans, but their head would explode trying to grasp all of them and all the variables while Alluminas is the exact same with variables replaced by patterns. In fact, the best way to think of Alluminas is Junji Ito's Spirals.

Whatever Nurgle's Law equivalent was is what we don't know anything about.

Malal was the outlier, and against the entire rest of Chaos. He also was the endgame of Chaos since Chaos is destined to win, then lose.

>Why does every thesis need an antithesis.
Because Games Workshop ripped off Moorcock, but only went halfway.

They overcompensated by making no less than ten different Elrics in Fantasy and three in 40k.

The anti-warp is the actual universe. A dimension governed by physical laws which cannot be broken without falling back on manipulation of the warp.

>Emotion is chaotic.
What about the feeling of Justice?
What about the feeling of belonging?
What about stable love?
What about the feeling of stability? What about feeling safe? The satisfaction of everything being in its place? Inb4 autism joke.
Inb4 not knowing those feelings.

I wish they would've expanded on Nurgle's law counterpart. God of Health sounds boring though.

Arianka, I wish they'd expanded on too. We know that Tzeentch was afraid of her, that somehow she was beaten, then for whatever reason locked into a tomb under Praag or somewhere else. With her keys scattered for whatever reason it's like GW planned a big storyline around her but gave up before it began.

In general I would've loved more expansions on the Law Gods, but for now anything on them has to be done through headcanon and/or expanding on them in WFRPG.

I do recall some wizards in Total War: Warhammer mentioning Alluminas though.

>is destined to win, then lose
Not anymore. Current lore is that they would be perfectly fine if the Materium merged with the Warp forever. Something about them existing in multiple universes.

Yeah it could be fun. Let the gods have multiple aspect for real and worshippers never knowing on which one they end up with.
I really want to see some khornate offering a whole city to Khorne only to be chastised because killing defenceless people isn't worth shit.
"But you said you did not care from where the blood flows..."
"NO, NEVER SAID THAT! WASN'T ME!"

>What about the feeling of Justice?
>What about the feeling of belonging?
>What about stable love?
>What about the feeling of stability? What about feeling safe? The satisfaction of everything being in its place?

Feeling pleasure.
Slaanesh.

The Law Gods weren't counterparts to the Chaos Gods, the closest you can get is Khorne and Solkan because both are portrayed as angry.

>Arianka, I wish they'd expanded on too. We know that Tzeentch was afraid of her,

Where was this stated?
Arianka was never expanded upon besides being locked in a box.

The opposite of entropy is movement.

If anything, Nurgle's opposite would be the theory of how the universe is eternal and after the entropic heat death all matter and energy will coalesce into another Big Bang and start a new universe.

So basically Sonic The Chaos God. Or Bomberman.

That's fucking stupid.

What, are they going to destroy every universe other than Blood Bowl?

If they keep wiping out universes even they'll end eventually.

The White Dwarf storyline involving Malal trying to destroy Arianka. Tzeentch considered her a threat to his own existence but figured he could corrupt her later so he trick'd her and got her locked up, but she was resilient to his influence and he couldn't destroy her without facing Solkan's wrath since they were pseudo-incestuous spouses so instead he ran off and threw away all the keys. Malal tasks one of his champions with fucking over both Tzeentch and Solkan by destroying Arianka and her tomb. The series was supposed to be a 4 (5?) parter that never got continued.

I don't remember the exact issue of White Dwarf the story appeared in.

Nope they exist beyond time and could simply keep mortals around in their own universe regardless.

>That's fucking stupid.

Conglaturation, you just summed up all of the End Times and Age of Sigmar.

Tzeentch is never mentioned.
Malal tasked his champion with helping, not destroying.

Just using a word from a god lexical field doesn't makes it its domain.
Or tzeentch plotting would be the PLEASURE of exercising power or the DESIRE for power, and so on for others gods and what do you know there is only Slaanesh.
You can do the same thing with any other gods and "prove" Khorne as well as Nurgle and Tzeench are each the only one god. Or with any god you can think of really.

I could be wrong, but I'm not so sure.

Got the issue # it shows up in?

Also 40k.

Blood Bowl is the only good GW setting, because it still is written with self-awareness.
Makes no fucking sense. Time itself doesn't actually exist in our own fucking reality beyond our perception, but cause and effect are still intertwined even if not truly sequential.

Do they just hire children to write the lore and sign their name on it like how Todd McFarlane used to do with Spawn artwork?

No, it was various citadel journals.

>Just using a word from a god lexical field doesn't makes it its domain.

Slaanesh's domain is pleasure though.
All you did was list a source of pleasures.

>Makes no fucking sense.

How not? They're outside of time. Thus blowing up a universe at a certain point in its timeline doesn't matter to them. Because they could always just go back.

>Sonic The Chaos God
Oh that's calling out for the Hedgehog Challenge.

This is not a good pain.

>Do they just hire children to write the lore and sign their name on it like how Todd McFarlane used to do with Spawn artwork?

Basically, yeah. They had some jerkdicks at Black Library write all the fluff who were either interns or extreme Chaos fanboys. The problem is and what makes GW just as guilty for ET/AOS/TGS(40k) is that GW reviewed and approved all the garbage they put out. They literally walked up to a pile of feces and stamped an approval sticker and price tag onto it and shipped it out. They allowed it to happen.

Arioch and Xiombarg are two, straight from memory.

Let me rephrase this so you can understand it.

We, you and I, are outside time. WE ARE OUTSIDE TIME, YOU ARE OUTSIDE TIME (caps for emphasis, not shouting).

Time doesn't actually exist in reality. Not just in their fictional universe, OUR universe. Real life.

Time is the human perspective of how the universe actually works. Time is the observed result of the transfer of energy between matter. In the proto-state for the big bang there was no time until the first reactions occurred.

Cause still has effect, but only from the human perspective are these things sequential.

So the only way your statement works is either:
1) Cause and effect have no relationship to each other in the Warp, in which cause nothing can get done and Nurgle may as well be the only Chaos God because such a thing only happens in absolute stasis.
2) GW writers are fucking hacks who have a highschool graduate understanding of the world.

>extreme Chaos fanboys

Chaos is only ever used as a plot device though.

>Because they could always just go back.
But they can't since they are outside of time. To them, there would be no "back" to go!

Anyway, if the chaos gods are outside time and interacts with the 40k universe then time can't have any meaning in the 40k universe. That would be like trying to fill the left half of glass without the right half. It's either one way or the other.
But time works more often than not in real space, so the "outside of time" is demonstrably false in setting and just a cool sentence to throw out with no actual meaning.

And that's if not having time means something to begin with.

>WE ARE OUTSIDE TIME

Nope. We are very much inside space and so inside space-time.
Chaos is out-width it.

>if the chaos gods are outside time and interacts with the 40k universe then time can't have any meaning in the 40k universe.

They can if they choose to though.

>That would be like trying to fill the left half of glass without the right half.

Why would that be impossible for a god?

Time does not exist, how are you not getting this.
Time is human perspective.

You know how in HP Lovecraft works people go crazy because they start to see how the universe REALLY works, how there's no such thing as parallel lines and thus no such thing as enclosed spaces and they go mad babbling about things in the corners of rooms staring at them?

Okay, in real life we don't go crazy when we find out our perspective is an illusion. You currently perceive time, but time doesn't exist. Like an optical illusion, its not really there and is just a trick of the brain.

So the Chaos Gods can't be beyond time because there's no such thing as time, in our world or theirs. Because that's how shit works. Unless its fucking Discworld where gravity works because fuck you.

>Time does not exist, how are you not getting this.

Because it's not true to simply say it doesn't exist.

No. Her domain is excess. Enjoying a cookie doesn't feed her. Blowing your entire savings on girlscout crack and spending the next several hours cramming your face, however, does. A love of justice doesn't feed her. Being Javert/Judge Dredd tier probably does

It really doesn't. Its an illusion.

Cause and effect exist. They do not have to be sequential however, the metaphorical window can be broken before the metaphorical baseball goes through it.

In order for the Chaos Gods to be free from cause and effect, they have to exist in absolute stasis AKA Nurgle victory where nothing ever changes, moves, or occurs in any way. Because anything else would literally be cause and effect.

>No. Her domain is excess.

No, excess is not an emotion anymore than blood and skulls is an emotion.
Slaanesh is pleasure. Excess is just the most obvious representation of that.

I thought the actual definition of time WAS cause and effect...

Not in physics it isn't.

>It really doesn't.

But it does.

>In order for the Chaos Gods to be free from cause and effect

They've have their own rules in that regard, but exist outwidth the universe and so can interface with it at any point along the timeline.

It doesn't, and saying cause and effect have any other rules is like saying 2+2=fish and not explaining what the fuck that means. Its terrible writing.

>It doesn't

It does.

>Its terrible writing.

They're made of magic and from a different universe that doesn't obey our universe's physical laws. It's not terrible at all, you're just butthurt for some reason.

>you're just butthurt for some reason

Why is this every Chaosfag's response to valid criticism of their mary sue deities being overpowered, stupid, or broken?

>The Chaos Gods don't make any sense. They seem like senseless Mary Sues kept alive by shit writing.
>LOL Y R U SO BUTHURT

Because it's not valid criticism, it's hurtbutt lashing out. "Chaosfags" simply know the fluff better than you.

No, Chaosfags hang on a single prophecy in oldlore and then End Times/AoS for their views on the fluff and the Chaos gods.

It's fine too. We're all fans of the same thing here. The problem is typical Chaosfags will taunt and laugh and shit on everyone else and make false assumptions about some kind of "Chaos supremacy" idea and then source it with ET/AOS, the lore everyone hates, then call them butthurt when they say it's not good enough. They read one or two lines out of a badly-written novel and say it's solid canon and that anyone who disagrees is just a butthurt fag because "chaos is so good xD".

They know it makes people mad, so they do it.

It's also why when Slaanesh got bitchslapped in AoS in a rare post-Storm of Chaos showing of Chaos being inept and defeatable Chaosfags whined and cried about how it was so unrealistic that Slaanesh got beaten.

They're not all bad, but many are circlejerking trolls whose only knowledge of WHF is Age of Sigmar and possibly the End Times, and/or whose only knowledge of WH40k is from Dawn of War II.

The reason anyone gets actually "butthurt" over it is in the case of telling them "fuck off retard" and the Chaosfag laughing because they "were only pretending". It's annoying, and even more annoying is that GW actively caters to Chaosfags, made Chaos into a bunch of unstoppable skublords, destroyed an entire franchise's canon, codexes, lore, and tabletop scene, and continues to gloat about it no matter how many fans they've lost. All because of fucking Chaos.

I'd say any of us who've known Warhammer lore before 2013 probably have a right to be butthurt that GW thought no one liked any faction except Chaos.

For the record, there are even some bonafide Chaosfags who hate Endtimes and Age of Sigmar.

Chaosfags hate Chaosfags.

>Chaosfags hang on a single prophecy in oldlore

It was more than one prophecy. It was consistent that Chaos was going to win.
I and many others told you so, and it turned out we were right. Who would have thunk it? The people who had actually read the fluff!

I'm guessing the Chaos gods were simply more popular and maybe they thought it fit the tone of both settings better that the Chaos gods incorporate both good and bad emotions and concepts and theoretically embrace the latter more because mortals do the same. Additionally or alternatively it could be viewed as fitting that positive emotions and concepts are used as a means of enslavement.

The Imperium, Eldar, Necron, and Tau all arguably stand in for order in 40k, however they're all bad in their own ways instead of embracing what the drawbacks of order are usually seen as.

AoS has a faction called order with a bunch of gods in it, but there are only inklings of how they can be negative.

The other gods being facets where the Chaos gods overlap is part of what makes the cosmology in Fantasy interesting though.

Problem is that you're looking for something outside of Warhammer or for the Chaos gods to fundamentally change. I can never recall them ever being hinted as actually having multiple different aspects, that is merely how mortals can perceive them.

Khorne is a great example where the Slaves to Darkness book blatantly states he only cares about killing. It is mortals who believe that the Chaos gods are really like this or really like that. It is the cruel irony that a worshiper of Khorne who clings to ideals such as honor will gradually cast all such notions aside in favor of just shedding blood.

>I and many others told you so

Nah, your samefagging is pretty obvious, just like your bait

>Nah, your samefagging is pretty obvious

My samefagging across countless threads stretching back to long before the End Times?
I warned you, others warned you, even the Be'lakor shitposter warned you.

>Arianka, I wish they'd expanded on too. We know that Tzeentch was afraid of her

That's actually french fanfiction made up for an unofficial WHFRP player's guide.

>the Chaos gods incorporate both good and bad emotions and concepts and theoretically embrace the latter more because mortals do the same.

Ironically in 40k the Chaos Gods were created by mortals (men and later Eldar) in the first place, rather than just showing up when the Old Ones left like in WF.

/wfrp/ fag here - Chaos winning was something that's been painted in as early as 1ed of the RPG.

I'm not sure why people get their knickers in a twist about it. The idea that the setting would inevitably fall to Chaos was part of what gave it it's charm - the idea of fighting the good fight, even if you knew it wouldn't count for much in the end. It's been something I've felt was intrinsic to the Warhammer flavour for years - shit is bad, and you better duck because another load is past due.

Chaos never made any sense and never will. Otherwise it wouldn't be CHAOS.

That is all.

Chaos winning was the inevitability, but whether or not it'd be order or ruin was what was up for debate.

All the forces of order were empowered by the Gods of Law just like all the forces of Chaos were empowered by the Gods of Ruin/Ruinous Powers/whatever. Supposedly even gods of both sides like Sigmar, Ulric, Gork, etc were empowered by the Order/Ruin gods as well, but that's debatable.

The victory of either Solkan & Friends or Slaanesh & Harem was said in 1e to be an inevitability, though this was changed some long before the End Times and even before the Storm of Chaos to say that their victory over the Warhammer world was inevitable unless the Old Ones came back, or that certain gods banded together and fought.

Either way, if the Ruin Gods won the world would be destroyed and inadvertently they'd lose all of their followers and be sent back into the Warp to live an eternal life of powerless suffering amidst the uncaring and mindless forces inhabiting it.

If the Order Gods won the Warp would be sealed and all life in the world would cease to progress, change, or shift in any way. The world would become clinically dead and inadvertently they would end up killing everything.

Both the Chaos Gods and Order Gods came out of the Warp, both seek to control the world for their own malevolent/benevolent/ambiguous purposes, and both will ultimately lose, no matter who wins.

This was Moorcock, this was Oldhammer, this was good lore.

>whether or not it'd be order or ruin was what was up for debate.

Nope. The Gods of Law were weaker. And would eventually succumb.

>This was Moorcock, this was Oldhammer, this was good lore.

Truth. But to be fair, I don't mind having a plethora of potential lore to pick and choose from. I'd rather have a shit load of conflicting lore with the assumption of 'Nothing is set in stone, go with what works for you' over one convoluted story line that lead to arguments and over analysing.

Weaker in that entropy is more natural than order.

Much more unified than the Ruin gods, and history shows weaker unified forces can overcome stronger disorganized forces.

>Weaker in that entropy is more natural than order.

No, they were just weaker spirits from the Realm of Chaos that gained form in the mortal world when they arrived there.
The Gods of Chaos were simply more powerful entities.

>story shows weaker unified forces can overcome stronger disorganized forces

Fuck, adding onto my own point this is even shown in Warhammer itself, average people overcoming titanic odds and winning.

I really need to stop replying to you.

Right, but still fated to lose.

Because gods of order are boring.

For the last time, Solkan DOES NOT EXIST. He is a lie.