My players are fucking annoying and really making me not want to run my campaign anymore. What should I do Veeky Forums?

My players are fucking annoying and really making me not want to run my campaign anymore. What should I do Veeky Forums?

Without going into needless detail, the campaign is about mercenaries going around doing mercenary things. My GMPC was one of these mercenaries and was doing his own missions and stuff off screen, occasionally showing up during missions the players were taking. He became pretty good friends with one of the PCs as the game went on, and I was having a lot of fun playing with character and writing his story arc.

During the last session, a PC accepts a mission to kill another top tier merc, and my GMPC was going to show up in the middle of it to help him since the encounter was basically unbeatable in a 1v1. But in the middle of the fight, the player decides he doesn't want to kill the target and instead wants to just capture her alive (I'm pretty sure he wants some retarded romance subplot with the NPC which is why I decided to write her out of the story so I could avoid all this in the first place). This was a problem because my GMPC was really determined to just kill the bitch off since he never backs down from a job. Eventually the two take her down, and my GMPC is about to go execute her since the PC is hesitating to do it, but then he spergs out and starts attacking me. I thought since they were best friends that he'd listen to reason and stop but then he actually goes all in and just kills my guy like it was nothing, even though he was holding back and trying to nonlethally subdue the PC.

I ended the session there because I just didn't feel like playing anymore after it set in that my favorite character was dead, and that I'd have to rewrite half the plot to accommodate for it and also have to deal with him trying to waifu the girl now that he "saved" her or whatever.

How would you handle this Veeky Forums? I think I'm gonna just restart the campaign with a new group that can actually take things more seriously.

>GMPC
There is your problem

It's the players actions that matter, not your plans. If you're a GM worth your salt, roll with the fucking punches.

Also, it seems like you were way, way too attached to your GMPC. It might be a good thing they were killed of, so you can't use them as a crutch.

Hey Jim. Did you forget that half of us browse this board?

If I were you I'd sit down and take a while to talk to your players about the kinds of games you enjoy. Figure out what part of the game each person at the table likes and then find a way to make sure that no one ruins anyone elses fun. If you can't do that then consider a change of campaigns to something you can all agree on.

Nice meme. Have you ever actually run a game before, permaplayer scum?

Why should I bother running a game if my players' actions make me not want to play anymore though? Like I said, I was attacking him nonlethally, but he escalated things too far and killed my character off for basically no reason and personally I think it was out of character for the PC to do.

Roll with the punch. Say OOC that you expect some kind of reaction from killing his buddy over his target.

What you think is out of character doesn't matter. It's the players character, not yours.

And you just confirmed you were way too invested in your GMPC. You are the GM. The whole world and all the characters within it are yours to play with. If you're that attached to a single character, it massively compromises your ability to do your job. It's a good thing they're dead, and you should take it as an opportunity to improve your skills as a GM rather than just replacing them.

I wrote the setting itself using that character as a basis though (he's the protagonist of a short story I was writing). So without him, everything just kind of falls apart. The players were even keeping up with my writing projects and understood the importance of the character so I thought we were all on the same page, and then this shit happens. I could have just declared he was invincible and cutscene killed the player, but that seems like an even bigger dick move.

I'm basically just considering the campaign non-canon at this point, which is why I don't want to keep running it since it doesn't contribute anything to the actual canon setting I've been building.

I was going to, but he called the NPC a "cuck" (in OOC thankfully) for disagreeing with him and it just made me not even want to continue the discussion.

>GMPC
Just don't. Never.

Also, this is a great way to change the murdering character. Ask him what he wants to do with the body of his friend he murdered. If he really just murdered a friend for romantic gain, have him go down the path of Frollo from the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Her being disgusted by his deeds is a good start, but keep it light enough for him to descend into madness.

>I wrote the setting itself using that character as a basis though (he's the protagonist of a short story I was writing). So without him, everything just kind of falls apart.

Oh my god, it's even worse than I feared.

>I wrote the setting itself using that character as a basis though
>(he's the protagonist of a short story I was writing)
>So without him, everything just kind of falls apart
You're baiting, right? Please tell me you're baiting

Your writing projects are garbage, we've been causing so many shakeups and important character deaths in your setting on purpose. Have you seriously not noticed?

I would have had a reaction, but he called the session immediately after the explosion that killed him.

Plot thickens. Please greentext this fags failure as a GM from your perspective.

I like how everyone is completely ignoring that one user who basically said 'maybe talk about it to figure out how this can be resolved nicely'

>(he's the protagonist of a short story I was writing). So without him, everything just kind of falls apart.
jesus fucking christ

Does Ops story about a self-insert DMPC make you think he'd be up to talk about it?

>GMPC
I'm pretty sure that this thead is bait

Deliver, please. This will be epic.

>boring campaign concept
>have a GMPC
>run it in the worst way possible
>ignore what players want out of the game
>GMPC is integral to the plot
sounds like they'd be better off without you

I actually run all games that I am in. I am just pointing out, along with many others, that this is your fault as much as it is his. GMPCs are a bad idea, especially when they are important as that.

No, no. He's a great GM, his game is really fun. His writing on the side is garbage. His 'main character' was fun as a bro comedy nerd friend. But as a main character he came off as obnoxious and uninteresting.

So players hate your rail road engineer(gmpc), they dont want to follow your vison for their characters? Fucking weird.
Maybe dont make 30 pages of pre written game and let them do what they want?

As far as im concerned, the PC's have done exactly what they should have with a masturbatory DM.

Next time make your DMPC a female so your characters try to seduce you instead of kill you.

>I wrote the setting itself using that character as a basis though (he's the protagonist of a short story I was writing). So without him, everything just kind of falls apart.
well, fuck
I... Fuck.

You deserved this. Making it possible for the PCs to shoot your plot in the head is bad planning, and by making your GMPC too important you were asking for them to do just that.

I'm curious as to exactly why everything falls apart without this one character, can you explain OP?

>All his characters are blank sheets or the same archetype of the smooth talking, intelligent and hyper competent overdog, who is still a geek.
>Female characters all fawn over the characters of the latter archetype. Doesn't matter because they all die guro-tier deaths.
>Forgets crunch every battle and needs players to help him out.
>Every battle is a poorly designed encounter that players can't win through strategy and instead always require help from one of his favored NPCs.
>Really bad pacing
>Stutters while he talks, all the time
>Constantly tried to pit players against each other, despite our wishes to work together.
>Keeps trying to recreate moments from the most recent popular video game of the month he's played.

>Keeps trying to recreate moments from the most recent popular video game of the month he's played.
I have no words.

So you write a campaign for yourself and ask the players to waste their time being a sideshow in it?
This whole thing really smells like bait.

Because in shitDM's mind his special snowflake GMPC is the main character. Without him the story "has no reason to continue" even though any moderately capable GM knows the players' characters are the main characters of the story and the GM should value them over any other character.

Lol

If you are really the OP's player, you're kind of being a fucking asshole, finding his thread here and explaining to us (and him, incidentally) why he is a shit DM in your eyes.

Have you considered just fucking telling him in person? Or, you know, not playing if you don't like the game he runs? That's an option too.

The GM came and bitched about us about his players, so I'd say it's even. Turnabout is fair play.

>Also, this is a great way to change the murdering character. Ask him what he wants to do with the body of his friend he murdered. If he really just murdered a friend for romantic gain, have him go down the path of Frollo from the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Her being disgusted by his deeds is a good start, but keep it light enough for him to descend into madness.

This.

The OP basically said "my players did X, which makes me sad, what do". That guy dropped in and started listing everything that makes the GM a bad GM and included a number of personal attacks. There's a difference in scope. Turnabout is fair play, of course, but scale matters in things like this, especially when they're all supposed to be friends.

>focusing on your GMPC and his "arc"
>deus ex machina "I'll save you" behavior from your GMPC
>obstinate spotlight-hogging behavior from your GMPC
>your GMPC is your favorite character
>having a GMPC at all

Sweet Jesus, you do every last cringeworthy thing that can be done with a GMPC. You have only two options:
1. Stop GMing and play your GMPC in a game.
2. Stop GMing and write fiction about your GMPC (but never post it).

>calling genuine character development like romance "retarded" and taking steps to prevent it
>ending the session because a player made a believable decision
>writing all that plot ahead of time
>wanting to restart a campaign with a group that will take your fiction and GMPC more seriously
Am I being baited?

The number one rule to compelling GMing is that IT'S ALL ABOUT ABOUT THEIR DUDE(S), NOT ABOUT YOUR STUPID FUCKING STORY!

Good bait thread.

>Every battle is a poorly designed encounter that players can't win through strategy

Why is this so fucking common in games I'm in

Dude if it's a Merc and Spy setting, let your player waifu the girl. Then give the girl an objective, ie bide time and kill her captors. Allow her to infiltrate the team and betray them through out the next mission.

Also it'd shame if your gmpc had a brother, wife, husband ect who'd stop at nothing to avenge the death of their loved one.

Designing a smart encounter is not very simple, i think.

congrats you just got a writing lesson!
life and especially people don't give a shit about your plans or ideas
sometimes your protag dies, shit happens

Well, on the other hand the PC might have killed the DMPC because was going to summarily execute a captured enemy with the justification of "I don't leave jobs unfinished" when it wasn't even the DMPC's job, it was something the PC decided to do solo and the DM decided to drop his Gary Stu into the fray.

You arent supposed to have 'a character' as the GM. It leads to a distinct conflict of interest for one thing and is just generally poor GM'ing.

Designing a good encounter without being able to really test it first is more of an art than a science, and most people aren't very good at art.

Hell, most people don't even know what a good encounter really is, let alone how to do it.

Depends on the system.

Every system takes some getting used to, but I find it a heck of a lot easier to design a fun and balanced encounter in, say, 4e than I do in 3.5.

Yeah that's true, but it's still something which requires skill even in the most helpful systems. 4e does do a really good job I admit though, I've been very impressed by its encounter tools.

Waay too obvious. When trolling, sometimes more is less. You have to leave a little something on the table to make your story at least somewhat credible.

The story is probably bullshit, but I enjoyed reading this thread nonetheless.

>GMPC
>Designing combats that require the GMPC to beat.
>GMPC actively shit on the players agency
>Referring to the GMPC as 'me'.
>Ragequitting when players kill precious, GMPC
>This is what not to do as a GM 101, have you thought about playing instead ?

P.S
I'm hoping this is bait.

I once offered this advice to a fellow DM about DMPCs and keeping them off to the sidelines.

>They can show up once in a while.
>They may offer minor support at most.
> They can never take a central role in the game at any point.
>If it is a favored DMPC always keep it just out of the player's reach.

10/10 shitpost OP. You played your bait well, I got a hue out of it.

If your players doing their own thing and subverting your expectations makes you not want to play ghen you dont have what it takes to be a GM anyway. Retire from GMing and go be a player.

Did his character know something about the target? Did he have a history of pacifism and made an exception in regards to killing your character?

I'm in agreement with others in the thread that you shouldn't have become so attached your character, but your player sounds like a total sperg.

Even if this is bait, I think it's a good example of how not to DMPC.

No. If a character you are playing is anything other than an NPC to you, you are committing a cardinal DMing sin.
The difference between an NPC and a DMPC is exactly and only this: a conflict of interest.

This. If the guy's going to be a weird fuck make that part of the story.

Ignoring the "this sounds like it could be bait" bits with GMPC:

>My players are fucking annoying and really making me not want to run my campaign anymore. What should I do Veeky Forums?
Take a break. Maybe come back later and fresher, maybe let someone else GM, maybe play with a different group.

You're the reason people think all GMs are just hack writers that can get published!

See

Agreed, but you couldn't convince this DM I'm referring to otherwise. The idea was to have him start with the above advice first. He was the kind of guy who would double down rather than admit he was wrong.

>GMPC
Just. Stop. Right. There.
God damnit.
You fag
If you don't know how to play a GMPC, don't do it.
A GMPC is nonintrusive.
A GMPC is a guide for the players at times when they are lost.
A GMPC should never make choices for the players and their teams.
The focus of the game is the players.
You as the GM are supposed to facilitate that.
Nothing more.
You absolute bunch of sticks.
Just do your party a favour and fucking kill yourself.

What you are talking about is either actually an NPC, or something that shouldn't exist.

Does this really happen? DMs creating characters to become players? I have not actually seen this outside of discussions here.

Your first mistake was making a GMPC.

Have the NPC pretend to fall for the PC and have her stab him in his sleep.

If you want an npc haracter to temporarily join the party that's one thing. But a permanent dmpc is always an issue.

Go to bed op

it isnt best to make a character that just references your dude that you play when you are not DMing, but not being and intrussive fuck either way?

Every noob GM gets the idea, and almost every noob GM thinks they're gonna be able to get away with it, and it inevitably proves a horrible decision either sooner or later.
The ancient greeks called it atë.

Basically the fundamental difference between an NPC and a GMPC is investment, and investment represents a conflict of interest.
Either you are not fellating yourself, in which case it's an NPC with a character sheet, - - - otherwise, you are fellating yourself, which will make people uncomfortable and cause you to make decisions that prioritize your masturbatory pleasure at the same level as your players' enjoyment (which leads to a worse game.)

I mostly DM, and I've had a DMPC.

And you played that hand real shit. Its not even the fact they came into conflict, that's just a neat development in a story, even if the situation steps over the line slightly in how much influence a DMPC should have.

The problem is you being a little bitch about it.

Op is baiting and the player is the same person making an entertaining thread

Well, to be completely fair, ancient Greek roleplaying systems typically featured semi-divine hero figures and practically encouraged the GM to fuck with the PCs (sometimes literally!) via a set of jerkass deities. Campaign-death-due-to-GMPC-related-hubris was apparently common, but it'd be a mistake to attribute this to the incompetence of ancient Greek GMs, as the roleplaying systems they used were heavily slanted towards this kind of outcome.

Honestly, the classical Greek roleplaying games are just not that good, which is why everyone ignores them in favor of the plays and the poetry.

this is all just the same guy rping as himself and player(s) right? lmao

...

Nice bait.
At least I hope it's bait. If you're seriously defending GMPCs, kys.

I've had good GMPCs. Mostly just bards to round out a party and act as bitch boy. Somebody who's a few levels below and mostly just carries shit.

One killed everybody, threw their heavy gear into the sea one night and they awoke to him using all the spare magic shit they were going to sell on them.

It was supposed to be funny, he was over reacting to a fair critique about his harp playing. This was 4e and they hadn't had enough sleep to recover dailys. I really didn't mean to party wipe with a pissed off atonal nodwick.

bait pics thread?
bait pics thread

...

Pull the trigger user. You're a waste of a GM.

Yeah, the whole thing smelled fishy but it just falls apart with this shit.

t. petty bitch

topkek this is how I played when I was 14 and trying to be a GM

Seen it in my first RPG experience, but that was with my brothers. My oldest brother was the DM and also had a PC. I remember it being perfectly ok, never taking the spotlight. I think an important part was that he was just part of the group, not some lone wolf bullshit.
But maybe it was because we were playing premade adventures which leave much less leeway for that kind of bullshit. Also we were kids and he is my brother so I may forgotten/forgive things and not knowing better.

As a constant GM I don't understand why anyone would want a GMPC in the first place.

Aside from the possibility that it will cause the Players to sperg out for no reason, it is the gateway self-indulgence and hand-holding. If players need to be advised to do something it is better to do it through throw-away npc's and judicious placement of hints. They (quite rightly) don't want to have to struggle with the Ref's pet character

:(

I wanted to be on your side, but you all sound like you deserve each other.

Assuming this whole thing isn't a giant sock-puppet for one guy's amusement, this group sounds pathetic. If you wanted your GM to run the game better you should have just been honest and forthright about what you think in the first place, rather than trolling him.

Which is why I believe this is all a farce to begin with. Why would you throw away your time on this in the first place when there are better games to be played?

you dun goofed, stop making everything about your GMPC, he died like a dumb bitch and there's nothing you can do to unfuck that.

>Aside from the possibility that it will cause the Players to sperg out for no reason
Could you pull out a DMPC as some sort of rival, using every things that make a DMPC annoying to anger the players and set up for a very satisfying comeuppance when they finally triumph over him?

That might be fun, but I think it would demand a strong understanding of how much your players are willing to tolerate. Irritating people while maintaining interest is a tricky game, and I don't think this GM has figured out that game

A haughty rival sounds like an okay villain, but the thing that annoys me the most about DMPCs is how they're used to railroad the PCs and invalidate their choices, and you can't really use that as characterization since it's all meta.

Bad DMPCs make players hate the DM, not the DMPC.

Newbie DM here, is this okay or is it a no-no?

>have character i really enjoy, but dont want to make it a DMPC for all the reasons listed in this thread
>include character as an NPC but the character is old and has already accomplished all the great deeds of their life
>players can only barely interact with them because the character is a king now

The players don't even know he exists at the moment, but they're on track to becoming Heroes of the Realm and will inevitably gain an audience with him. The king is a level 20 Barbarian (5e) but I don't have any intentions of having him go out and fight. I don't expect the players to attack him, but he has a loot table and a character sheet just in case.

Bad? Good? Just fine?

As long as the focus remains on the players, it should be okay.

Powerful NPC's aren't a bad thing, but you always need to have very clear reasons why they can't take action, to keep the story focused on the PCs.

In my experience, you should never use player character classes for NPCs. It makes characters feel less special, and makes combat more dull.

Furthermore, why do you enjoy this character? It sounds like you've played him before, somewhere else. If this is the case, he shouldn't be in the game unless you're playing in the same timeline.
Even then, it might have consequences in the long run that make for a poorer game experience.

Finally, you don't need to prepare sheets and loot for every NPC that the players can possibly run into.

Mighty fine bait made me replay

>rewrite half the plot

If a single npc was the focal point of half the plot then you weren't running it right.