How would you use D&D/supernatural monks in war? Not really suitable for formations

How would you use D&D/supernatural monks in war? Not really suitable for formations.

Or any other form of combat.

No, but they're suitable for breaking up formations. Your phalanx meets the enemy's, and then your monks hop over the shield walls and start annihilating them from the other side while your infantry starts in with their spears.

Legend of the Five Rings has an interesting take on this, with some of their superpowered monks, IIRC, acting as mobile, disruptive forces, using their manoeuvrability to get all over the place and mess with formations, giving the Samurai on their side an advantage.

You could also go the Dynasty Warriors route, the super-martial artists as leaders and generals, their duels acting as a microcosm of the battle itself.

Why would they not be suitable for formations? formation doesn't mean "thightly packed roman shield turtle" only. Just spread them out a bit so they don't hit each other with their energy waves/ki bullshit and then have them kill your enemies.

I wouldn't.

>in war
Deep strike
They can move fucking fast and can be stealthy agile faggets, attack the back of the enemy's army or even attack the center

In fact, they could even grapple the enemy's commander and force the army to surrender

Hyper mobile shock troops. Their primary tasking would be to break formations from the back and work their way towards HVTs

Well, let me retify.
Are we using D&D lore monks, or are we assuming mechanics in this question? because by lore, yeah, by mechanics, they suck, they won't be able to do shit.

Lore.

Y'all are thinking a bit small. OP said war, not battle. You don't send your monks to the front lines, you send them deep into the enemy homeland. They don't need weapons or armor to wreak havoc. Good luck fighting a war when your couriers are being intercepted (move speed), your mills and wells are being destroyed (sundering unarmed strike), and your smiths are all dead because someone just walked into their forge, paralyzed them and tipped them into the furnace.

Air drop them from Skyships/Giant eagles ETC.

My current PF monk moves at mach 1, jumps half km, and has pounce like (in reality is movement and full attack, no need for straight like and other bs charge forces you) is that helpful in a war?

Your monks are dead, thanks for playing.

Did Feather fall get removed from the books while I was gone?

Why not send wizards then? monks don't have feather fall.

Hybrid Wizard/Monk shock unit.
Scrolls.

>Wizard/Monk
MAD

>Scrolls
UMD is Cha based, so see above

No, but in real life formation fighting only happened during large battles, which were actually fairly rare (hence all of them getting named) due to battlefield intelligence at the time being fairly nonexistent.

Example; nine year war that the Duke of Wellington fought with Napoleon's control over Spain? Most of the time was spent looking for the other guy's forces and maneuvering forces into position while the other guy did the same with only rarely both coming together for actual full-scale battles.
And that was with armies with thousands of more people involved then feudal or early modern warfare.

They'd make amazing assassins.
Seriously, according to the rules the weakest of monks does d6 damage, which is the same as a short sword which is a steel blade 2 feet in length.
Now imagine a world with no HP where a regular guy can hit you with enough force to penetrate armor and kill you with his hands without needing to try very hard and can blend in with the populace just by wearing regular clothes, and then combine it with superhuman acrobatic skills.

>Super-humanly fast
>super mobile
>crawl up sheer surfaces
>speak any language
>immune to poison, disease
>resist magic
>require no weapons
>can operate without food or sleep for extended periods of time

Operators. Monks are elite crack commandos. When you need something interpersonally destructed, you send a high level Monk.

They're wasted as anything but spies and assassins. Their only real selling point over other classes is that they need no equipment of any kind, so they have nothing to find when you search them and they can't be identified before they start killing. Depending on the rules, their stuff may not count as magic for the purpose of bypassing antimagic zones and kther magical defenses.

>crawl up sheer surfaces
I don't remember this feature

Everyone's armies are made of wizards. Everyone is a wizard because why wouldn't they?

Shit I could've sworn they got spider climb, mixed it up with Abundant Step which is just as OP.

Still, Acrobatics and Climb are class skills, and they have slow fall and high jump
Also this, Monks are perfect for disrupting wizards. Full Saves, Still Mind, Evasion, Diamond Soul, and stunning fist procs off of a mages lowest save.

Obviously nothing is going to beat a PREPARED wizard, but a surprised Wizard doesn't have much time to react to a Monk tearing ass out of the tree's like batman vietcong

The disrupting formations idea seems fairly good, but they could also make for a glass cannon sort of shock troop, especially something that could do acrobatic feats that normal warriors and wizards couldn't - climbing up walls, dodging around barricades and traps, that sort of thing. Send them up to attack defenders on the wall before the main troops set up their ladders and climb.

They'd probably also make pretty good bodyguards just because they're so unconventional.

>which is just as OP
I don't think that words means what you think it means

>teleport a short distance magically

This is fucking irrelivant on TT, but if you think about how this could be used IRL, it gets terrifying, especially when things die when you touch them

You can only do it like 2 times per day, at the level you get that any arcane caster can teleport bazillion times at any distance ever and at immediate action, that's why is not even the slightless op at all

You're basically freaking out over a glock while the rest of the world has 20 gundams each

Actually 1 time per day.
And is dimension door (meh teleport) as caster level half your monk level rounded down.

>wizards are better

No one ever argued they weren't, chill your caster peen.

Top tier flankers, especially in the kind of rough terrain that make horses impractical. Run multiple squads of 20 monks a quarter mile off the flank of your vanguard and have them whip along the back of archers and commanders. Disrupt chain of command, beat up camp followers, kill the motherfucking cooks.

>kill the motherfucking cooks
Bad move.

Thats just mont vs monk, user. Thats also why you send squads of 20 monks.

Unless those monks have names in the credits they're as good as dead.

>Thread about deploying D&D monks in war
>Expects anyone but the general, his best friend and the generals wife who is in love with the friend to be in the credits.
Do you even narrative, user?

Alternatively:
>Expects an enemy vanguard to keep up with monks
>Expects the monks to ever even get close to the battle proper.
>Doesnt think that disrupting command and supply lines is important
>Doesnt consider the influence a burned village 20 miles behind the battle lines would have on the enemy nation.
Do you even Sun Tzu, user?

I'm just talking about them fighting The Cook. He's going 20 to 0 K/D in that fight easy.

Behind-enemy-lines assassination or infiltration.
They'll sneak better than anyone except rogues, thanks to all dat DEX. Fug'n Shadow Monks, how do they work? And goodies like Stunning Strike etc. will let them take out anyone, if they aren't outnumbered too much.

Maybe we can skip THAT cook.

They all stack on top of each other into one giant one to become our hope for the future.

You can skip him but will he skip you?

A high level Long Death Monk (5e) would tear through waves of mooks like tissue paper. Once they get to level 11 they become near impossible to kill if they play smart, and can tank even shit like Disintegrate.

If you've got supernatural monks, there are probably wizards or shugenja or some kind of caster in the mix, throwing fireballs at your mans from behind a protective phalanx or from the top of a nearby hill.

Monks are for running over there, leaping over the bodyguards, making their saves vs. magic, and kicking casters in the face. They're counter-caster troops.

Okay. Sure. That's a nice sword, but I'm just going to kick you in the face.

fpbp

fpbp fuck this thread

Line breaker troops. Nothing shakes the peasant levies like an unarmed man silently bounding over the entire pike formation towards the bannermen.

Assuming these are monks based on their lore intended power and not their terrible in-game mechanical ability, monks make for excellent skirmishers, bodyguards, infiltrators, assassins, or really anything that calls for combat in a plainclothes situation. The uses for a person who can easily kill with no weapons are innumerable to list.

If you ignore how monks actually perform in D&D, they would make for good mage killers. In battle, you'd be sending squads of monks after the key casters in the enemy's formation, slipping past the frontlines and disrupting their casting.

It really is a shame monks are so terrible in regular D&D. The idea of some Wuxia style motherfucker running past hundreds of mooks, dodging past fireballs and arrows, all to punch a wizard to death is a pretty neat visual image.

>have infinite AoOs
>have cut of the wind and smash of the winds
>have retributive reach
>have impossible speed
Technically, I can counter an army by myself

A 4e monk is fantastic at breaking formations and destroying heavy armour units.

They can turn a group of people very quickly into complete chaos as the push people out of position, trip half a dozen guys or spew a gout of fire over the formation.

They also completely ignore armour so they can ruin the shit of expensive elite troops.

True, and they get all their ki back with but a short rest. But level 11 is like legend status in D&D terms, if you're recruiting living legends in your army you might as well go with wizards.

guirella

What edition mechanics do you use? Because in 5e only one archetype of monk is weak.

It's "gorilla," you dumbass!

>All these idiots
Espionage and assassination obviously. Does DnD really mess with your tiny little brain that much?

>What edition mechanics do you use?
If several editions I always assume the most played, and that's 3.5.

In 5e monks are meh af, but not alwfully bad like in 3.5 bar 4elements.

And if you're recruiting living legends so is your opponent, then long death just becomes another dude

>most played, and that's 3.5.
Ahem.

Before you put together 3.5 and PF players, I should say I suspect that there's an overlap between them

>In 5e monks are meh af
Sadly this, once you allow feats they're just a mediocre HPs mediocre AC stun gun for literally all the game

Eh, depends on the monk. While sneaky, not all monks are skilled at the observation part of being a spy. They are dex + Str/Con/Wis/Cha as the options for secondary stat. Str and Con monks are better used in combat scenarios.

Scouting, Espionage, Assasination.

The ones i'd see in formations would be Sun monks with their beam spam.
Imagine a batalion of lvl 6 Sun monks with vl 11 commanders.

Everythingburns.jpg

I say Supply runners, scouts and messengers.
Their speed and agility makes it easy for them to get around enemy lines or manoeuvrer in the open between army camps.
If whatever setting they're from does not require them to fight with honour, the can also infiltrate the enemy camp and be in and out before anyone notices that they spiked the army supplies.
Also, since equipment doesn't really factor into their capabilities for the most part, they're ideal spies as well, if their code allows it, with the ability to take down key targets far behind enemy lines, or simply blend into the beggars of the enemy's capital.

>Roll20
>Top games are pleb games

No surprise there.

Officers. They keep morale up by fighting without weapons, and can deathpunch anybody on either side who starts becoming a problem. On top of that, they literally have some kind of metaphysical mojo, which is a must for good officers/leaders in a fantasy setting.

Anti Artillery, Anti Mage, Scout, Saboteour, Spy units and Commanders.

They also make great battle medics cause they need no gear except for their own food supplies and medic kits.

What of Tranquility monks? Would they be mobile medics, work behind enemy lines to convince the enemy drop their weapons, or serve as advisors/diplomats to diminish battlefield casualty.

Bodyguards, shock-troops, skirmishers, irregulars, moral pieces.

The Togashi tattooed monks would like a laugh at your expense.

it's a "people are mad that a naked man who can murder people with his bare fucking hands isn't as overpowered as a guy in magic armor with a magic sword with magic rings and magic boots" episode

Are there any systems that do a good job of making monks useful for their spiritual/mental strength instead of just "dude wot punch things"?

Maybe he would be a sort of bard figure? Helping allies with the power of philosophy. Navigating social situations with ease by reading peoples' inner spiritual state.

Probably also really resistant to sanity damage in a horror game.

The same way they did in real life.

taking into account the system claims they're both equally powerful when in reality one is pure garbage to the point even NPC classes are better, and the other is so broken makes everything trivial, yes, people have the right to complain.

Also the naked man has supernatural powers, is not just because he's naked and unarmed.

>taking into account the system claims they're both equally powerful when in reality one is pure garbage to the point even NPC classes are better, and the other is so broken makes everything trivial, yes, people have the right to complain.

In 3.5, yeah. Plenty of editions other than that.

you could sort of do that in DnD with the right feats or skill point distribution probably. I think they try to model that with monks getting good saves.
I wouldn't know the answer to your question off the top of my head tho.

Dress them up as refugees or commoners, send them behind enemy lines and have them be agents.

D&D monks that are Avatar-lites can totally be used in formation

AND THEN THE FIRE NATION INVADED

Monk has only been equiparable with other classes in 1e and 4e. In the rest it goes from meh to pure and unadultered shit.

PF Unchained monks would be terrifying adversaries.
>Ki Vision to divine targets, outcomes of battles, and other intel
>Ki Metabolism to reduce need for food, water and sleep - including recharging their ki pool in a mere 2 hours
>Strength and Wisdom are the only two serious stats needed for them
>Full access to Qigong monk ki powers such as Shadowwalk (entire troops moving hundreds of miles in hours), Barkskin (even MORE armor), and medium range flurry of blows with fire and negative energy damage
>full BAB
>literally punch tanks to pieces
>dragon scale monks for energy attacks of all sorts
>invested regent monks for even more divine healing, divinations, protective spells, and infiltration
>Full caster level dimension door, and enough feats to gain the Dimensional Assault feat chain
>can gain massive bonuses against style feat practitioners (i.e. any martial who wants to be effective)
>indirect fire, mines, and explosives barely effective or entirely ineffective
>cloak of winds making gunfire ineffective

They're currently the most deadly iteration of monks since AD&D.

LINE FORMATION KI BLAST

This guy gets it.

So does he.

Funny thing, Unchained isn't as powerful as normal monk with the right archetypes.

>my favorite edition of D&D is most played, therefore it's best!
>but user, it's not true
>fucking pleb-tier games, they're only popular because mindless drones play them!

every time

The monk's unique distinction among dnd warrior types is that he's a lethal weapon even in his street clothes. Combine that with a host of odd immunities and utility powers and they're clearly meant to be deployed as assassins and infiltrators instead of lined up on the open field.

Man. Tastes differ and all but it's still kind of amazing that 4e tanked SO hard.

>not realizing unchained can use most monk archetypes

Not really. The players worked very hard to alienate anyone who would have played.

>>not realizing unchained can use most monk archetypes
user, I...how do I tell you this...Unchained Monk CAN'T use archetypes...sorry

Well, officially it can use two (scale fire serpent and mantis something) but the tons of previous archetypes like master of multiple styles, hungry ghost, zen archer, sohei, etc? not even one.

in battle: use them like cavalry, attacking the flanks of enemy formations, while they are easier to conceal, thus giving them an edge over normal cavalry. have them carry spears and shields for misinformation.
in war: either gorilla warfare, unarmed and dressed like the local population. have them attakc supply chains and possibly important personell in skirmish battles

I'm the first guy, , I'm happy I'm wrong

You are factually incorrect. Every splat with monk archetypes that has come out since unchained monks has added information on how those archetypes can be applied to unchained monk.

3pp or Paizo official?
Every oficial archetype that came before Umonk is a no-no for Umonk, the only official ones that work with it (and are pure garbage) are what this guy said The fact still remains, core monk with archetypes is better because has access to stuff like MoMS, Hungry Ghost and the really powerful stuff.

Where it says the Unchained Monk can't pick archetypes? nowhere, therefore I can pick whatever I want, smartass.

Paizo official.

Most official archetypes that came before uMonk are less useful than uMonk, and the one that actually mattered (qigong) it gains the abilities of automatically.

Not really, Master of Many styles/Qiggong/Hungry Ghost ends dealing more damage, getting ki and health back, and gets +1 to attack per style he has so he make up for his medium BaB, his only problem is that is 1d8 instead of 1d10
Zen archer is a beast by itself (though not very monk-y)
Sohei is another good archetype if you like weapons and light armors (you can end getting +5 to attack and damage on those weapons by spending 1 ki and flurry with them)
Tetori is indisputably the best grappler class

I play a lot of monks, I played both Umonk and CRB one, and the core with the right archetypes is better than Umonk

Unless they released new archetypes that turn Umonk better, core with the right archetypes is still above Umonk

You can't mix archetypes, smartass.

>can't hit anything and seriously MAD is okay

>Serioulsy MAD
As MAD as Umonk
>Can't hit anything
Which archetype?
MoMS? sorry, again, you get +1 to attack for every style you have, that makes up for medium BaB, you can actually have more attacks if you build it right too (sorta like old karmic strike so all at your highest attack bonus)
Tetori? uses his level
Sohei? gets up to +5 bonus to attack and damage making up for medium BaB
Zen archer? you can focus on Wis only as a Zen archer making up for MAD and lower BaB

So what's going to be?

Oooh, sorry, Sohei and Zen Archer have flurry, so their attack is at HIGH BaB, so in fact Sohei hits BETTER than Umonk.

>all these abilities that come online at late game that are still are not quite as good as BAB for a character that really only needs to focus on 2 stats instead of 4 since full BAB classes have more hit points on average
>we'll also ignore that flurry has penalties to hit if you're not an umonk because that's really inconvenient
>definitely ignore the touch attack that you can stack the entire vital strike chain on for massive damage since you have full BAB
>and the pounce attack by 5th level, and the lower level Dimension Door that allows you to get the entire Dimensional Assult Chain by 14th level with
Oh I dunno, the fact that uMonks can consistently hit for more damage than any of those and still have utility abilities must mean nothing.

>4th, 6th and 8th level are "late game"
ok
>we'll also ignore that flurry has penalties to hit if you're not an umonk because that's really inconvenient
Sohei gets up to +5 to hit and damage from and up +3 to hit from weapon training. At 6th level is going to be a +3 for sure. On top weapon enhancements are cheaper than AoMF.
>pounce
10ft (your monk speed) at 5th level
With Pummeling charge (style feat) at 8th level you can pounce at 2xspeed and ignore DR

And by consistently what do you mean? against a test dummy that doesn't move, attack back of provokes AoO or anything? Snake/Panther/whateverthe lizardnameis/Dragon will make TONS of attacks and dealing more damage (Unarmed damage + Str+ 1/2 Str + Wis) just for example

With the same stats I'll (at first sight) have only 1 HP less per level and 1 BaB less (you will have less Will save and the more you level the higher will be the difference), but with your features from your archetypes you get more than you lose. You srly think that getting 1 ki back per downed enemy at 5th level and your monk level in health at 7th is worse than having 1 HP less? specially combined with multiple styles and qiggonk powers like barkskin (that you can also have with Umonk I know), srly, is better.

You're free to believe whatever you want, the fact that I played lots of them and saw the results by myself and that tier lists agree with my point is enough for me

I'm still angry about the Master of Many Styles nerf that made me have to rebuild my Aegis.