I heard when he came back he admitted that parts of the Codex were a bad idea...

I really, really like Guilliman's character in Dark Imperium. He's a really good perspective on the Imperium, but with a degree of power as to not be basically a nobody that gets branded a heretic. It's a really tough and complex relationship, so it if anything highlights how grimdark the setting is, even when one of it's greatest heroes can't do much about it but try to hold ground.

The second best part is reading Marneus Calgar, one of the giants of the setting, feel suddenly like a piece of shit because he hasn't done enough.

Also, of Mortarion being told off right to his face.

Yeah, he's doubting the truth, but he still does not like the religion going on in the 40K era, he's thinking about it when the tech-priests are praying to the Omnissiah after they put him into his armour.

He does say he insisted on it at first, and Rowboat thinks (internally) that it was a bad idea to have done so. Here:

>"I have heard something of your beliefs," said Mathieu. "When first awoken, you insisted upon something called the Imperial Truth?"
>Guilliman looked away, irritated, reminded of old lies. He had been rash to voice his objections to the Ecclesiarchy in those early days after his awakening. It had taken him time to recover the full measure of his wits, and he had been alarmed by what he found.

He says to Mathieu instead that there should be a "modified" version of it:

>"A modified version of it, yes," he said. "Reason still has a place amid all this madness."
>"Some may disagree with that," said Mathieu amicably. His eyes glinted shrewdly. "As I understand it, my lord, this truth denies not only your divinity, but that of your father."
>"The Emperor denied His own divinity," said Guilliman flatly.
>The priest shrugged. Guilliman had seen the look on the priest's face too many times on other holy men. It was the look of the blindly faithful.
>If the Emperor Himself stood up, thought Guilliman, came down off His golden throne and proclaimed 'I am not a god!' then they would burn Him as a heretic.

He thinks then that Mathieu doesn't have many fanatic signs, but he'll give it time. Then:

>"If you do not hold with the teachings of our glorious church," said Mathieu, "then why did you treat with us at all?"
>"Because the Adeptus Ministorum has power, and though it has used that power unwisely on occasion, once the balance sheet is reckoned, I see it is and has been a force for good. I need the Adeptus Ministorum. I need their support. The turning of the galaxy depends on their approval, though I may wish it were not so."

Long story short: Robby G does not like or want the Ecclesiarchy. He just has to swallow his bile and deal with them as best he can.

>I really, really like Guilliman's character in Dark Imperium. He's a really good perspective on the Imperium, but with a degree of power as to not be basically a nobody that gets branded a heretic.
I agree. He's nowhere near my favourite Primarch, but it's definitely interesting to see his viewpoint as one of those "demigods" from ancient times brought forward into the modern era and basically hating it all, waking up from a "nine thousand year sleep into a war he had thought was already won."

It's why I'd like to see another Primarch or two pop back up. Probably Dorn or the Lion. Both for how they can play off Guilliman with their own character differences, they can provide him somebody else on his level, and from that they can also give him some much needed support.

>t. Ecclesiarchy

Wasn't the Emperor as Omnissiah already well established long before the Primarchs were even conceived?

You should go read it, its pretty good

>drive.google.com/open?id=0By9476h8G4T_alhFam1Oby1Xc0E

>Robby G does not like or want the Ecclesiarchy.
I'm willing to bet once he stops fighting his own thoughts so much, and gives in to thinking the Emperor is god, he'll try to reform the Ecclesiarchy. After all, he did say that once everything is accounted for, the Ecclesiarchy has done net good.

>Theoretical, he thought. The Emperor is a god and denied His own divinity to protect humanity. Practical, He is a god.
>Or, he continued to himself, Theoretical, the Emperor was not a god, but became one. Practical, He is a god.
>He dismissed the idea angrily. These theoreticals had trooped through his thoughts so many times before he had grown weary of them, but his mind would not stop generating counter-arguments to his beliefs.
>Theoretical, the Emperor was always a god, but was unaware of it. Practical, He is a god.
>No, he thought.
>Theoretical, the Emperor became a god to protect humanity. Practical, He is a god.
>He is not a god, he thought.
>Theoretical, Guilliman thought savagely now, turning his anger against his traitorous mind. The Emperor was never a god, denied He was a god and has been wrongly elevated by men who see power and mistake it for divinity. Practical, the Emperor is not a god.

>‘If you do not hold with the teachings of our glorious church,’ said Mathieu ‘then why did you treat with us at all?’
>‘Because the Adeptus Ministorum has power, and though it has used that power unwisely on occasion, once the balance sheet is reckoned, I see it is and has been a force for good.

All this talk of Guilliman hating the church seems willfully ignorant of the fact that BL is clearly setting him up to become a theist for the drama with the next returned loyalist. And in fact, it pretty much says the only reason why Guilliman won't allow himself to come to the god conclusion is because he's asspained M41 Emperor didn't live up to his loving memory.

Has Gulliman had any documented encounter with the Emperor or at least viewing the Golden Throne?

Kinda curious on if Emps can even reach out to him

If Lion El'Jonsen wakes up I hope he would command all chapters to merge/form Legions again. Fluffwise there is not nearly enough marines to defend the Imperium properly.

I hope Corvus shows up and loses his shit over Primaris Marines

I'll just quote that little exchange here for you, since I'm pulling out various things from the book already:

>"My lord," said Sicarius. With one last bow, he departed, leaving two Victrix Guard behind.
>"Praise the Omnissiah for the Armour of Fate!" proclaimed the tech-priest. "Praise the Emperor for His wisdom! Praise the motive force for the activation of the primarch's shield."
>Guilliman hid a wince at the tech-priest's fervour. He had little time for religion.
>At least they are not singing, thought Guilliman. He had had to put a stop to that.

There are others scattered throughout, such as when he hates referring to "spirituality" because it sounds too religious. Things are mostly him keeping his mouth shut and thinking about how he doesn't like it rather than opening his mouth and pissing people off.

He might eventually give in to it, who knows. Right now though, I like the back and forth he has. Another Primarch coming back would give him space for admitting that okay, fine, the Emperor is a god now, because it keeps that friction going with the other Primarch instead. But it'd need that next Primarch, I think, to properly trigger it.

I do agree that the seeds have been planted. Fulgrim tells him outright that he thinks the Emperor is basically a god who was just in denial about his divinity.

Yes.

He senses/is saved by the Emperor when Fulgrim throatslashed him, he refers to a "golden light" that envelops him in peaceful sleep, the implication being that the Emperor saved him just long enough to get him into stasis.

The other one is when he reflects on his conversation with his father. He is not impressed with it, it does seem like Black Library's "Primarchs are only a tool, Emperor never thought of them as sons" opinion is now functionally the new canon.

He admits parts of the codex were mistaken, mostly separating marines from government. He thinks if the marines stayed a part of the process the Imperium wouldn't have regressed so bad

That and the ultra-adherence to the codex

Honestly, it's the one bit of new fluff that everyone seems to have gotten behind. All the new canonfags are like "See! The Emperor was always a manipulative bastard the whole time! See!" and all the old canonfags are like, "See! The Emperor's been driven insane by then Throne and lost all compassion, just like in Inquisition Wars! See!"

Which was a damn sure sight better than all the autistic screeching from both sides we've been seeing.

GW has been trying to clean up the reputation of the Ultramarines/Guilliman for years now after what Matt Ward did. Know No Fear portrayed him pretty well too.

Lion would immediately reform his Legion I'd say. The Dark Angels are accused of legion building after all, they take their instructions from the Watchers etc.

As soon as he woke up he made for Terra which turned into a long journey (the Terran Crusade) then he got to the throne room and went before the Emperor

The Emperor did talk to him but his behavior disturbed Guilliman more than what he actually said. Guilliman describes it as a inventor who has found his lost toy, and 10,000 years of the throne has stripped away all of the emperor's humanity. He's in constant agony and doesnt' care about appearing human anymore so straight up calls Guilliman a tool. Guilliman reflects very negatively on the experience and never bothered trying to talk to the Emperor again in the last century.

>implying the COMPLETELY LOYAL AND CODEX ADHERENT DARK ANGELS CHAPTER is secretly a legion

Lion seems to be the next one, there's been a few hints here and there and he's the only other one we know for a fact his location. But it would be really convenient that the Imperium gets its loyalists back in such a nice order:
1)The Politician/Diplomat/Empire Builer
2)The General Who Might Have One Day Surpassed Horus.

I don't like that section of the book myself, I'd have preferred it to be more ambiguous than just Guilliman thinking "yeah, the Emperor was a lying dick the whole time, BUT NOW MY EYES ARE OPEN AND I SEE THE TRUTH".

They don't take instruction from the watchers, would you take instruction from a walking lectern?

Seems about right.
Anybody willing to build a Galactic Empire on the blood of countless alien races and dissenters couldn't have love in their heart. I believe the only thing he loved was the Empire he created.

Not to sound like a complete edgelord but compassion and empathy are for the conquered.

He does love though.
>The Emperor loves no one man, thought Guilliman. He cannot afford affection – that is the honest practical for the impossible task that faces the Master of Mankind. He did not love His sons, He does not love men, but He does love mankind.

Maybe, but Guy Haley was told he could do whatever he wanted as long as he featured Primaris Marines and in the words of Laurie Goulding on 40k canon and people not liking some of his stuff: "I still got to tell my story, not everyone’s going to like it."
Maybe an author will come along some day with their own take, and his story will be more compatible with the one you want.

He must have had compassion for mankind though otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with any of it.

I dont think its quite as black and white as that. Look at Girlyman and Horus, they both embody aspects of the Emperor with Girlyman reflecting the noble, compassionate aspect and Horus embodying pure ambition and desire to rule

>it does seem like Black Library's "Primarchs are only a tool, Emperor never thought of them as sons" opinion is now functionally the new canon.
Ironically, RG is treating the Primaris Marines the exact same way.

I wonder if Emps was pissed about Ynnari and if Bob asked why xenos resurrected him and told him about origin of Chaos instead of father.

>>If the Emperor Himself stood up, thought Guilliman, came down off His golden throne and proclaimed 'I am not a god!' then they would burn Him as a heretic.
He's not wrong.

Well, he demonstrably is since he's said the Emperor's not a god multiple times and they didn't burn him. Unless the M41 Imperium now holds Primarchs in higher esteem than the Emperor. They'd probably ignore him like they did Guilliman, or insist "Only the Divinely Humble would deny Divinity" like the proto-cults did in the Great Crusade.

IIRC the watchers and the grand master communicate in "total secrecy", because of the highly sensitive nature of the topics in question.

this is all 6th/7th ed codex of course. I have it nearby if we really need to go down that road.

The chapters were created because at the time, small mobile forces were necessary to bring the imperium to stability after the heresy.

He didnt intend to have them like this forever.

During the indomintus crusade he technically commanded half the Primaris marines in a legion strength unit called the Greyshields. They would eventually be dismantled but clearly he has no problem being a "warmaster" level commander if the need required it.

Shit, thanks user!

Is there anywhere i can start reading the whole of the 40k lore for free at least regarding the Primarchs and the horus heresy and such?

>I heard
It's never true. People shit false information all the damn time for attention.

>and apparently he talked about the Imperial Truth a little while after he woke up. It did not go well. At all. Hoooly shit it did not go well.
Can I get an example of what happened?

It's never said exactly what happened, just that Guilliman realises now that mentioning it was a really bad idea in the modern Imperium.

I think a good foil would be Khan, Russ and/or Corax coming back. Basically uninterested in empire building, they have their vengeance and churn their area's resources towards enacting revenge and blood feuds despite Guillimane's attempts.

Lion is sitting pretty with a giant Dark Angel legion appearing and disappearing on a whim.

Vulkan is being bitter and cynical hammering giant weapons in a volcano.

>Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star
Looks like the Emperor IS going to become the Star Child after all.

>The Emperor did not love his sons
>his sons
>They were things. Guilliman, all his brothers, were nothing but means to an end

See, its very obvious that even the Primarch still feel human enough to consider themselves as people and want familial relationship. Love really. That's a very basic human principle that even the most augmented superman killing machines would want.

You know, if the Emperor really wanted ultimate weapons and not sons, its a pity he had to keep them as human. If they were soulless machines or unfeeling rocks, they'd have been more loyal. But then where would the human ingenuity come from.

Still I wonder if he could have done some neuro super emperor science to get rid of the parts that made them want to feel human or at least the parts that desire human familiship and love. He clearly didn't expect or need the Primarchs to want love.

My head canon is that the primarchs have the elements of the Emperor within each of them and that includes his emotions and feelings.

It's like you don't want street cred

Khan is actually extremely level headed, but he knows that the only thing he's really good at, and the only thing he really LIKES to do is conquest, so he does that
He'd honestly be a good compliment to gulliman, one guy to take shit over, and the other guy to actually RUN things they took over

Never underestimate.

THE WILL TO DOMINATE

>I should not have done it. I thought I was doing the right thing. I thought I was following the Emperor's wishes, letting men rule the affairs of men. After I implemented the Codex Astartes and split the Legion, I thought it impossible for a force of one thousand battle-brothers to effectively govern such a large realm [talking about the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar] and perform their primary duty as guardians of the Imperium. My Legion was gone, and I did not want the Chapter that continued their traditions to become insular. They would have been distracted, perhaps never left Ultramar, had they Five Hundred Worlds to govern.
>I did not wish to set the precedent of Chapters of Space Marines ruling large portions of the Imperium. What good would it have been to remove the use of Legions from potential tyrants, only to turn the legionaries into tyrants themselves? By His actions, the Emperor made it clear that governorship of the Imperium was to be undertaken by mortal men, not by the Adeptus Astartes. If the Ultramarines were left masters of the Five Hundred Worlds, it opened a potential avenue of corruption. I would not have the existence of Ultramar be the spur to the creation fo a thousand small empires, because I could not trust the Adeptus Astartes to replicate what we have at home. Warriors make poor lords. The likes of the Empire of Iron was the more likely outcome than a crop of new Ultramars.
>And yet I return to life and find the entire Imperium a prison for its people. By avoiding one problem, I created another. If I had left Ultramar intact, more worlds would have been havens from such pain and remained centres of reason. A bigger beacon burns brighter. I should have left it whole, as an example of what can be.

"Space Marines should be running the Imperium." - Rowboat A. Girlyman, somewhere(?) in the millenium of Our Lord The God-Emperor of Mankind M41-M42

I can't see how because a lot less chapters have went heretic than legions would have as any part of a legion doing so would probably condemn the whole thing and all founding chapters except the dark Angels have stayed loyal.

It's a shame Khan is the most unlikely of the surviving primarchs to get a 40k appearance outside of maybe Corax. Even Dorn is more likely and he's commonly considered boring as sin.
I mean, Lion and Russ are sure bets, but Khan? Barely anybody cares about White Scars and I'm sure GW want the model to actually sell.

>Dark Angels
>not MOST LOYAL

You mean like the butcher's nails on angron?

Except without the whole "ANGRY ALL THE TIME" and also the "its going to actually fucking kill them"

I understand this from a business perspective which is a shame. Khan is one of the only Primarchs that made it out of the HH without looking like a cry baby or a fucking retard. Plus Asiatic techno super humans riding bikes like the mongols is still a cool thing that exists in 40k.

From a lore perspective they could have had a hook where Khan, having spent so long in the Webway has it fully mapped out. While still dangerous, it could have been a great direction during a time of warp storms and a split imperium where Khan leads his progeny on a crusade to carve out an Imperial usable webway to connect Imperium Nihlus. Meanwhile the Dark Eldar and Chaos elements make this a three way war in the webway as Eldar and Harlequinns try to play off every side.

The other primarchs don’t really have much else going for them.

>drive.google.com/open?id=0By9476h8G4T_alhFam1Oby1Xc0E

Thank you!

Well theres the whole unresolved Fallen thing for the Dark Angels. Although how many could there possibly still be?

I really dont see what the Lion would want to do once waking up. Its not like the Dark Angels and sons ever stopped hunting for the fallen.

Corax could be back with Primaris V2.0, Maybe a Ferrus Manus clone escapes, Vulkan prob could armour entire chapters in terminator armour.

40k wiki

That's the thing about "Legion" we don't know how many there were. Millions?

>That's the thing about "Legion" we don't know how many there were.
We know that the Ultras were the largest legion at the time of the HH with 350,000 marines.

Pretty sure the next HH book has the DA in so we'll get their exact numbers then.

>Vulkan prob could armour entire chapters in terminator armour.

I want to see Vulkan and an entire chapter of Terminator marines go on a "Martian Crusade" whose only goal is to work with the Adeptus Mechanicus to safely investigate, repair, and catalog all of Mars all the way down to the Void Dragon's Chambers.

Mars is a gold mine of technology and hidden STC's buried under mountains of damage, technological monsters and rogue defense systems. Imagine the potential befit there would be if a whole crusade was spent to defrag and unfuck that big computer archive planet.

It would be like a space hulk game, except its Mars and a whole planet and is an entire chapter lead by a Primarch instead of a squad.

So the Emperor wanted to make Necrons?

Practically it seems. Necrons whose only purpose was to defend humanity and serve him as ultimate weapons. None of that "love, family and human desires such as a need for faith and self actualization" stuff so common to humans.

And also looked like super humans cause surely the best weapons are humaninty perfected except the parts of personality people generally associate with "humanity"

The emperor wanted the perfect human weapons, who weren't really "human" inside

"cawls blasphemous hordes"

i still dont want to believe he meant the primavera maroons with this. but there is nothing else he could have meant. for me this was basically the most shocking moment of the book.

I want to read the newest Novel but does anyone know how many pages it has etc?

They don't give any information except the discription.

I agree because it makes little sense to the overall story. For starters he asked for Cawl to make them and he waited for Big G's ok to activate them. So bizarre response imo.

And 'blasphemous'? Really Bobby? Drinking that Imperial kool-aid already?

about 400 like average black library berk

Thanks.

does anybody know when we can expect the next novel that moves the timeline forward?

i have read probably dozens of black library novels but i must admit finally moving forward was unbelievably exiting.

I don't disagree, but, as you said, business comes first and I don't see them wasting effort on models barely anyone needs.
On a general scale I'd seperate the remaining primarchs into three categories as to how likely their return is, assuming the confirmed dead ones do stay that way.
>sure bet
Russ, Lion
>maybe
Dorn, Vulkan (though Dorn is more likely than Vulkan);
>not in a million years
Khan, Corax
If they *do* revive dead ones, it'll be Sanguinius in the 'for sure' slot.

That said, Khan and Ferrus were the ones that have come out of HH the least ruined, and Ferrus only did so because he got murdered early enough, so they'd actually be quite interesting in 40k.

They're blasphemous to the Martian Creed.
It's not very damning coming from Guilliman considering he doesn't believe in a god.

Honestly that would have been the best plan. Take some humans remove much of the humanity and turn them into walking toasters. If he did this he at least would have avoided horus.

Could be ironic? IE: they are blasphemous by AdMech and probably Ecclesiarchy standards if examined closely.

I can see literally everyone else thinking they're blasphemous yet they dont seem to care?

Bobby has no reason to think they're blasphemous yet he is bothered by them?

Seems like a throw away line that wasnt vetted properly to me.

The fluff from the starter box mentions that Rowboat did not anticipate the sheer scale of the project and the number of changes Cawl would make when he comissioned him to start the undertaking. He didn't expect anyopne to be actually able to do too much with the fragments of the Emperor's data he found, so he's actually kinda quite unsettled by the success of the magos, though he obviously still makes use of the results.

Guilliman is trapped in a grimdark Life of Brian. "He's not the messiah, he very large mutant."

G-money actually only expected a couple of squads of slightly improved marines out of the project, not a legion-strength force of outright better super-marines.
>Source is the 8th edition box Space Marine mini-index.

>Bobby has no reason to think they're blasphemous yet he is bothered by them?

He can recognize that they're blasphemous according to a religion without caring. I could buttfuck a pig on top of a pile of Qurans and recognize the action as blasphemous despite not being a Muslim and not caring about blasphemy.

Guilliman doesn't say he's bothered by them, he just admits to himself he doesn't love them as a Father should.

Thats actually fucking hilarious. Goddamn I love Cawl.

I think it's the first hint that he's going down that same path as the emperor. But he isn't trying to pretend he loves them as sons, they know he's doing everything because all he wants is to save the imperium. One of the primarines actually thinks on exactly that.

What new organs do?

At least he has eldar waifu instead of old geezer and mute soul drinking whore.

My headcanon is that the Primarchs' souls are slivers of the Emperor's own. In making them he had lost consciousness over his whole self so had little control over the final product.

Anyone else think the Lion waking up is how the Imperium is going to go to shit?
He wasn't exactly trusting or stable before his adopted brother and half his legion turned on him.
He's going to wake up in a future that's nightmarish even by his standards, his descendant chapter having acting like complete retards for 10,000 years and a primarch he was always at best jealous of trying to tell him what's what.

They're only mentioned as improving their resilience further, no idea what they actually do.

>He wasn't exactly stable
?

Who thinks Lion El'Jonsen is going to forcibly remove Guilliman from his office? During the Horus Heresy it was clear Lion didn't like Big G's new Imperium project.

i guess we wont see him so soon.

Rowboat's been hiding references to Second Imperium, I don't think he wants people to know about it and has no plans on trying it again. That might assuage the Lion somewhat.

>In less than a year people born in 2000 will be posting on Veeky Forums as 18 year olds

It's over lads

>Lion acting like a bitch

What else would be new?

>Avoids most of the most major battles of the Heresy
>At the end comes out with less than 1/2 of their legion mysteriously
>Have some dark secret shame
>No one puts two and two together

Why is this still a secret? Every chapter had loyalists and traitors in it.

Not the Dark Angels. How dare you even suggest that?

I seem to recall he decapitated one of his own men with a stern backhand in a moment of anger.
He was also just suspicious and autistic to an unhealthy degree.

>Avoids most of the most major battles of the Heresy
That's not his fault, it's part of the original conception of the HH. Roboute and Lion were the same it's just they forgot to retcon the Lion's doings as much as they retconned everything else.

>has no plans on trying it again.

"Look, I just want to use a Legion created for me that's loyal to me to rule in my father's name, reform all the major institutions of the Imperium and put Space Marines under my command in charge of the humans, this is COMPLETELY different to that other thing I would have had to cover up. Not that I did anything. At all. Why are you looking at me like that?"

You know the episode of Spongebob where Spongebob and Patrick steal balloons on Free Baloon Day and spends the rest of the episode freaking out and wracked with guilt despite knowing else a) knowing or b) caring? It's a lot like that. Lion's always had a bit of the 'tism, so he and his marines probably care a fuckmore about it that anyone else.

Also originally the DA's having traitors was unique to them; legions either went balls deep to chaos or stayed loyal to the man. While recent retcons might make more sense realistically (out of hundreds of thousands of marines per legion, not a SINGLE ONE went against the grain?), it did kind of bork DA's lore and one of their major characteristics.

Gman is in charge by the will of the Emperor.

Also in all fairness, he didn't expect Cawl to produce a fucking LEGION of Primaris. He was expecting squads, maybe a couple hundred at most.

Asked in numerous threads for this.

Thanks!