So... now that the tax plan goes into effect on the 1st...

So... now that the tax plan goes into effect on the 1st. Does that mean that we have to file taxes for every single trade or only if we have big gains like 10k.. ?

Other urls found in this thread:

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-21/tax-free-bitcoin-to-ether-trading-in-u-s-to-end-under-gop-plan
bitcoin.tax/
cointracking.info
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

this looks shitty desu

Only when you cash out from Bitcoin --> fiat. You realize your gains when you trade between shitcoins, but only do your taxes when you cash out.

t. 200 IQ

thanks user, guess i wont cash out

as of rn u pay taxes when you cash out to fiat. with the new plan crypto is no longer protected under a grey area of trading between like assets. so starting jan 1st u pay for gains realized between trading cryptos. bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-21/tax-free-bitcoin-to-ether-trading-in-u-s-to-end-under-gop-plan

What you do now is take every trade from your exchange histories starting January 1st, drop them into an excel sheet and email them to your accountant. You spend another $100-300 on your accountant fees to process the additional calculations. Its not difficult.

This is wrong. Starting Jan 1, 2018, 'like-kind' does not apply to digital assets. Only real assets.

What if the internet has a massive crash and crypto is lost forever?
What the fuck do we do then?

You report your initial investment as capital loss.

so you're implying i can still claim like-kind for ETH/BTC trades made this year on my taxes in April

Does this mean though all crypto-to-crypto exchanges before january 1st are covered as like-kind?

What if at the end of the year I’m at a gain in crypto so I do my taxes saying I gained something and send it in but then crypto does what it does and it all suddenly dumps?

thanks for the info, makes it more easy to understand

based Trump finally purging Veeky Forums of cryptoshit once and for all

yes they are. so exchanging btc for shitcoin 1 or eth for shitcoin 2 would be like kind and u dont need to worry about it.

Have fun being the slowest board on the site

I'm not an accountant, but from what I've read so far on financial sites, the changes are not retroactive for 2017. This is serious because of the boom and popularity burst of crypto in 2017, the IRS will be searching high and low to get their cut. Consult an accountant or tax attorney.

This is an outlandish hypothetical that I'm not even going to bother thinking about.

>government is causing people to keep their value in crypto, resulting in a faster network effect because cashing out becomes less and less attractive

I fucking love this wacomole game Satoshi has created, what a fucking time to be alive!

Is it really outlandish though? Crypto does stupid shit all the time

The internet isn't going to disappear. You know how decentralized databases work right?

You called the crypto dump outlandish not the internet death one

This.
I'll hodl, or convert to Monero.

Thank the fuck god because until now I've literally made and lost signicant amounts of money back and forth and missing records from some defunct exchanges. I'll just buy good coins starting the 1st and hodl.

So now you pay 30% on what you make at your job, pay fees to convert it to crypto, pay exchange fees on every trade, pay ~20% per trade, finally pay exchange fee to withdraw to fiat, and then pay another 20%. Sounds like a real money maker, this crypto business.

>he says we’re taxed too much
>taxes is more
Fuck Trump

So basically buy monero until the us comes up with a tax system that isn’t absolutely retarded, got it

Yeah it's pretty outlandish. Corrections happen all the time in speculative markets. Corrections =/= collapse. If the market absolutely flatlined you wouldn't pay taxes on assets that do not exist. You would report the trades still, including the gains. However, since all is lost, the capital losses offset all gains and then some (your initial investment)... get it?

>expected to track transactions across 15 different exchanges for hundreds of coins
>plane trip to switzerland is $500
Really ovulates my omelette

How to get rich in crypto: Buy after a correction and do nothing for 4 years. It also simplifies your taxes, user.

Does this mean it is time to abandon shitcoins?

Cashing out to fiat. Say I cashed out to USD on coinbase but I never transfered to a bank account and then just put back in BTC. Does that count as a financial event for 2017.

Yes, converting to BTC to USD is a taxable event. Transferring USD from an exchange to your account would not be. You won't be hit twice for getting out of crypto.

So if I just record every trade I make e.g. Buy ETH > REQ > ETH > BTC etc... I just save all this shit and then when I cash out inthe future I give those transaction records to an accountant?

Seems easy

Every crypto trade you make has to be reported for the year it was traded in starting Jan 1, 2018. >if you buy btc @15k and sit on it, you pay nothing until you trade it back for USD, or you trade it to something else. When you trade the BTC for anything it is a taxable event. If your BTC had depreciated since you bought it, you claim capital loss. If it had appreciated, you claim capital gain for the amount it gained prior to the trade.

Its really a net 0 impact because you'd be paying that same capital gains when you cash out regardless. The only real difference is record keeping. We pay our accountants slightly more money to calculate find historic btc prices and calculate the gain/loss when we day trade. Thats about it.

so we dont need to record trade history before jan 1st?

I’m clearly in over my head with this crypto shit. Only put a few hundred in and have pretty much broken even. Maybe up like $30. As long as I cash out before the 31st, all I would need to do would be to report the money I put in and the money I took out, right? Assuming I even have gains when it’s all said and done

>all I would need to do would be to report the money I put in and the money I took out, right?
Yes. If its been less than a year from your investment you'd pay short term capital gains tax on any gains. If its been over a year, you'd pay long term capital gains tax on any gains. If you lost money you'd claim capital loss which would reduce your income tax. If you broke completely even (unlikely) you'd report but pay nothing.

This I'm not totally clear on yet. I told another user to check with his accountant/tax attorney on this one. I haven't spoken to mine yet. The one thing I am certain on is that we'll need all of our trade histories starting Jan 1, 2018.

Sounds good. I think I'm gonna cash out before the 31st then. Fuck all this man, I clearly don't know enough and I don't need the IRS bothering me over $200, although that would be ridiculous if they did that because, lol
$200 is quite literally chump change to a lot of you high roller crypto dudes

If I were you and I didn't really need the cash in hand, I'd just sit on it. Crypto (especially the big 3) have a nice pattern of mooning, correcting, reconciling, and repeating at a steady upward trajectory. That $200 could be $10k+ in 4-5 years and thats much better than you'd get out of traditional investments.

I've made some really nice trades, some with 30k+ profit in the span of a few hours, but full disclosure, the majority of the money I've made in crypto has been from nothing other than holding with patience and intestinal fortitude to wait out the corrections.

dummies

I'm clearly in over my head and while I'd like to sit on my money, my main concern is getting fucked because i don't know how to figure out how to calculate the exact dollar value of the purchases I've made. Made a decent number of small trades at the beginning to get my feet wet and learn the system. Think about trying to calculate the exact amounts makes me want to just give up lmao

unfortunately, binance doesn't show dollar amounts, just your sats

you dont need to report your baby change
why would you even need to do this. thats retarded

You'd just look at timestamp, the price you paid in sats, go back on the BTC chart for that moment in time and calculate the $ amount.

Tax stuff can be intimidating, but really, its not difficult, just a little time consuming, but if you're not day trading you'll literally just need to make a calculation for each type of coin you hold.

well then please kindly explain what the fuck i need to do then?

Ive been doing staggered trades with a small sat range, am i really supposed to track thousands of trades of trx at .00000240, 241, 242, 243, and sells of .00000263, 262, 261, 260?
Lmfao fuck that

Expect software to be available for this very soon.

I really hope so, i got no problem feeding the tax man but it seems crazy to charge each transaction

lol this i trade crypto because its easy they make the taxes easy or i dont pay them

You can thank the rise of Monero and other privacy coins for this.

Thanks unironically bought 100k

Okay so starting next year I'd have to claim every ETH>XXX trade at the end of the year? Even if I don't change back to USD? And then pay the tax amount even though I didn't exchange to fiat?

Would this matter on smaller figures? For example I make

fucking feds

>Okay so starting next year I'd have to claim every ETH>XXX trade at the end of the year? Even if I don't change back to USD? And then pay the tax amount even though I didn't exchange to fiat?
Yes. The tax calculations are made on every trade based on the value at that time. Every trade is now a taxable event.

>Is the Tax man going to even notice me not paying my tax on Crypto I haven't cashed out?
Probably not, but expect extra scrutiny from the taxman on any money coming into your bank accounts from an exchange. If you make $70k a year and suddenly start making $10-15k deposits into your account you're probably going to get audited.

Believe me, its not worth the possible tax evasion/money laundering/wire fraud charges that could result. Even if you made $20M, you don't want to have to deal with that.

You are always required to pay capital gains tax, regardless of your income. It is up to you to determine if the $500 is worth the risk of being audited by the IRS.

They have no way to track this shit. Pay your capital gains tax if you must, but d3ont let these niggers jerk you around when they cant even figure out how to analyze it.

Not always. Low income individuals and families don't pay long term capital gains.

For 2018 -->
Single Taxpayers
Up to $38,600
Married Filing Jointly
Up to $77,200
Head of Household
Up to $51,700
Married Filing Separately
Up to $38,600

0% Long term capital gains

Don't websites like bitcointax do all the taxes for you?

how the hell do you report etheremon gains

See: bitcoin.tax/
Links to a lot of exchange APIs and imports your trades automatically.

audible kek

I would assume each ponzimon you buy would be considered a digital asset. Any dividends paid to that asset would be taxed as income.

Thanks, I'll check this out. I've always just sent all my shit to my accountant, but if I can can get accurate numbers here it'll save me some change.

>suddenly start making $10-15k deposits into your account
I seriously hope you guys dont do this

this is exactly what I needed. APIs prevent them from actually trading on my account and shit, right?

>taxing neopets
what the fuck Trump

So what happens if I make a shitload of money on an exchange, and send it to a wallet, but then somehow lose access to my exchange account and can no longer access my trade history to report each individual trade?

So does this mean day trading is dead?

From what I gather, it's not a different amount of tax. Instead of paying a giant amount of gains tax when you cash out, you now pay smaller amounts of gains taxes every time you make gains on a trade. Since those gains are already counted and reported, you don't count them when paying taxes on your cash-out.
Tracking all that is going to be a pain in the ass, but if you're making decent money you can just hire an accountant and send your exchange history to them and let them sort it out.

Also, this only affects US residents anyway.

>outlandish hypothetical
Oh good, I was thinking about taking you seriously for a second.

Intestinal fortitude. Greg plitt ?

What's to stop me from ignoring all of this and using foreign exchanges that can't be subpoenaed by the IRS + using Monero to prevent blockchain analysis, and then cashing out on Coinbase and making one "lump" capital gains tax at the end of all this?

Because there's a zero percent chance I'm making a billion little calculations for every trade I've done.

Alternatively, does anyone know if JM Bullion reports gold/silver purchases to the IRS?

>cashing out on Coinbase and making one "lump" capital gains tax at the end of all this?
The IRS can see your coins leave Coinbase, then they see a giant amount get put back on Coinbase after some time. They can easily verify that the gains are not what they would be if you were merely holding, so they know you made at least one trade which you have not reported.

Somehow I don't think the IRS will let it go just because they can't get the records of every single trade you made.

>Okay so starting next year I'd have to claim every ETH>XXX trade at the end of the year? Even if I don't change back to USD? And then pay the tax amount even though I didn't exchange to fiat?
Yes. The tax calculations are made on every trade based on the value at that time. Every trade is now a taxable event.

Does this mean we have to basically cash out every year to cover down on the capital gains tax? What if you hold a coin that 100x, then convert that back to ETH or any other coin? Is our only realistic option now to just invest in good coins and hold?

I can see myself (or someone) making massive gains on a coin but essentially being held hostage by my own bank account not being able to cover down on the capital gains tax, pretty much forcing a cash-out? Am I misunderstanding this? Please help clarify. I asked these types of questions in the other thread.

I used cointracking.info which seemed fairly easy/intuitive, it didn't even ask for an email address of all things to create an account, all I did was import the .csv from my exchange history. Anyone tried both?

will not hold up in the court of law. What you pointed out is speculation. Knowing is not enough, they need to be able to prove beyond any doubt that you have made a trade and not reported it.

And you don't have to prove shit, remember innocent until proven otherwise (or at least it should be).

They can prove that you have made at least one trade by pointing out that the gains you made would be literally impossible to make if all you had done is hold the coin.

When you're on trial for murder, they don't have to prove that you shot the guy. They just have to prove that the guy got shot, and your prints are on the gun that shot him, and let the jury draw their own conclusions.

> your prints on the gun
exactly, they need to show your prints on a trade that wasn't reported. And since most jurys aren't gonna understand Crypto trading very well, you won't be convicted and they know it.

Well they do have your digital finger prints. They can see that you bought bitcoins on Coinbase, and sent it to a wallet associated with Bittrex. Then out of bittrex comes more bitcoins than you sent in. HMMMMM I wonder if he made any trades there. They can subpoena bittrex for your records too.

In his initial question he mentioned using a foreign exchange that wouldn't care about US subpoenas.

Are the BTC ATM’S anonymous?

This. The trades you make on binance. Can the US government even get this data? Probably not unless the chinks give it to them and I don’t see what motivation they would have to cooperate.

>people don’t want to trade as often
Goodbye 10x moon missions fueled by fomo

That can still happen, if their desire is to trade once in order to hop on the ascending coin.
I think what this will mostly affect, if anything, is the attractiveness of day trading very often at very small margins.

I’ve already paid taxes on the income that I used to fund my portfolio.

>user pays government 30% of user is successful
>government pays user nothing is user is failure
Sounds like a scam to me. Did government help you make your gains user? Is government provide you with startup capital? Did government advise you on what coins to invest in? No? So government can fuck off.

(((Uncle Sam))) can suck my dick if he thinks I’m going to pay them again, I already paid taxes on my income that I used to fund my portfolio.

I don’t agree with double taxation and I’d rather burn my fucking wallet than pay it to (((Uncle Nigger)))

>implying even 1% of people are going to give a shit what our crackhead government wants us to do with a market that was invented by the people, for the people. They didn’t invent blockchain assets. They don’t get to regulate them.

Unfortunately it doesn't matter what you agree with. At the end of the day there's 2 options:

1. Pay your taxes.
2. Don't pay your taxes and hope the IRS don't audit you and throw you in jail.

No, you don’t HAVE to do anything. The whole reason behind crypto was to break away from governments and banks control over our ‘finances’ and if you comply to tax laws you are not doing that. Tell them to fuck off sven if they make it illegal (they won’t, they need this new tech). Seriously, they win if you self regulate and pay taxes to these monsters. Don’t let them control you!

Don’t even pay that tax. The whole point of crypto was to break away from banks and governments. Fuck them! The only tax should be for military and policing. The only thing you owe a bank is debt from a loan (which you shouldn’t get) and everything else is criminal! SAY NO! They only win if you comply. This is the time to fight back, not to give into their enforcement of rule. You want to be free don’t you faggot? We’ll fight for it! They can’t send us all to jail!

Option 3: blow away every glow in the dark alphabet nigger that comes for you, and take your gains to the grave in a blaze of freedom and glory

this is the correct answer. crytpoanarchy or bust.

And hello 100x moon missions which will always go through privacy coins

can you explain your reply to this please?

This. Fuck the feds, fuck the banks

>I'll just buy good coins starting the 1st and hodl.

This is what I plan as well

Decentralized exchanges will be huge in 2018. I suspect that will present an impossible challenge for the taxman to grab what's ours.

Every single trade was already taxable. Literally nothing changed. Morons.

Don’t be greedy user

Lamar needs his welfare check and food stamps to feed his 5 children

monero going to the moon on new years eve.

you are 100% wrong they've removed the like kind exception and every time you transfer from coin to coin a taxable event occurs
>t. accountant