Players not on the same wavelength?

I think I may have fucked up, Veeky Forums.

I've been running a game for a few sessions now, and I'm realizing that it's not the kind of game I was initially looking to run. The frustrating thing is, I know it's not really the fault of my players, but more of a difference in expectations and what was left unsaid.

The PCs are sort of a 'special unit' for their kingdom, battling an enemy empire; they pull off impossible missions, they're badass champions and highly-skilled professionals who join in at critical points to ensure the fight goes well. (i.e. they're the fifth column that hits the enemy right where it hurts, at the worst possible time.)

(More)

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

See, the idea is that the players are technically fighting for the wrong side. Both sides are arguably bad, but their side is worse. They were the aggressors, and the monarch is under the influence of a devil that's looking to escalate the war as much as possible. To my mind, the PCs should eventually figure out that something is up, and look for a third way to bring an end to the conflict.

The thing is, the PCs just enjoy what they're doing too much. The party leader is probably the worse offender. What happened is that, at one point, they captured a group of guerillas looking to sabotage their weapon supplies (including cannons) and prepared to herd them off to imprisonment. They actually killed most of the fighters, so the reminder were obviously pissed, but an important NPC (the future resistance contact) was amid the group of fighters.

The problem is, the PCs didn't even speak to them. They just prepared to send them off to the labour camps. In an effort to put more plot into the story, I had the guerilla leader go on an exposition rant about the atrocities their side had committed, and how they were fighting for the devil himself.

So the PC leader said "Wait, I've changed my mind. We're not sending them off to the labour camps." But instead of asking exactly what the fuck she was talking about, he said "Hang them."

Anyway, I called the session for the evening. I didn't want to break kayfabee, but I told the leader's player that "Hey, maybe you should look into things. That person might've had a point."

The PC told me "Oh, I know something's probably up, but I don't really care. I'm not interested in helping them in any way, I just want to win the war." This is a problem, because the other PCs just sort of go along with whatever the leader (who is, to his credit, the one most invested and interested in the setting) wants them to do.

Like, is there anything I should do to sort of get things back on track? I mean, at this rate they'll eventually win the war, but I'm not sure a gradual slaughter is the kind of campaign I can run in the long-term.

This isn't the first time it'd happened. The party has generally dealt very harshly with anyone who doesn't seem on the up-and-up. It's like they don't even want to see the possibility that there's a bigger picture.

Running a different game then your players are think they're playing is a bit of problem

This is sort of a 'should of' thing but did you make it clear that there was more to your setting than just mindless hacking and slashing?

If you want to try again, do something more obvious, like as obvious as it can be without being immersion breaking (at least not to the point of 4th wall breakage)

lastly if it's really gone to shit you could directly tell the party leader about whats going on (OOC of course)

I'm pretty sure the party leader has figured it out, but he actually prefers the war story.

Simple, do what he wants

End the war, with their empire winning, then go into further conflict details with the newly occupied territories, while having their empire sweep the efforts of the party under the rug and pretending they don't exist

If that fails, just have their empire outright betray them

I guessed, but I mean like explain the whole situation, make sure he realizes that as the DM, only war (best system) isn't what you want to be running. You don't have to explain everything that's going on, just make sure he knows what you'd like to be doing.

this works too, but that takes longer and might still not even work.

Really? Betrayal would be pretty simple to do. Just have something about the party learning too much and then throw insurmountable force at them. They either die or run. When they run, have them find out that they are considered traitors by the empire. Then revenge happens. Hopefully with some RP with peoples they've slaughtered.

Sounds like a good idea. If they are the black ops, the empire can just use them as scapegoats to cuddle up the new territories. Put in some sort of bait for the people to believe the party commit an atrocity.

Then continue with what you are planning by having the party forced to help the resistance.

Well, assuming that you're not willing to just make it a war campaign like they want, there are a few suggestions I can think of

>escalate the horror and evil of their actions/missions until they eventually nope the fuck out
>Engineer a plot where the resistance are spreading rumours that they have in fact already joined them, king finds out and excommunicates them
>the next time they fuck up a mission, their commander overreacts hard and executes one of them, which should probably spark a change of sides

OP there is a test you should do;

Have the empire leave them behind to get slaughtered so the rest of the army can escape have the commander give a big speech about how after the battle they will be released to Valhalla or whatever your setting has. Then make the battle a horrible scene a mix between WW1 gas and WW2 artillery attacks from a new wizard units the other side has got, try and get that feel from the GoT battle of the bastards and give the team minor injuries like scars and such you can agree with them, even kill a character off and make his new character a higher army rank if you want to discuss it with them beforehand.
Then have them survive, win if they deserve too but make it hard and plan for them to fail, see what the PC's do next.

Because if they go back to the army OP that's the life they want and you should be happy that they are so invested by your storytelling that they want to fight for the badguys, that you make them feel strong and that although it didn't go your way you can enjoy the new story this will carve out.

two ways you can go about this are;
1.have them stumble across a former battlesite and have them meet survivors that are sympathetic (women, children, the elderly)

2.make it clear something supernatural and fucky is going on in their own kingdom, requests by higher ups for strange things, weird behaviour in the townsfolk, a mysterious sickness, have a noble who is suspicious of the king hire them to get to the bottom of the mystery under the guise of concern for his health.

>This isn't the first time it'd happened. The party has generally dealt very harshly with anyone who doesn't seem on the up-and-up. It's like they don't even want to see the possibility that there's a bigger picture.

Maybe they don't care. No matter how many atrocities their side do, they will still go along with it, because it's their side. It's not like it never happened and it's totally unreasonable. It's more often the norm.

You're gonna have a good incentive for them to defect, but there's a good chance that it will seem like an ass pull, because it will be exactly that.

You should talk to the players and try to explain to them that you intented for them to defect or be resistant fighters without saying too much to save the plot.

Tell them that you didn't expect them to be so slaughter happy and it's kinda killing your buzz and not making this fun for you. If it's irreconcilable, just cancel the campaign.

Whatever you do this seems more like a problem that needs to be solved above game.

To me, it sounds like your players have already caught on to the fact that they're working for the bad guys, and because of your "subtle" signs that their side is wrong they're actively rebelling against the rails you've laid out for them.

Alternatively, you've made them too powerful, and they've got cocky. If your players can do whatever they damn well please, then any negotiations will -rightly- take place on their terms and their terms alone. Some rabble that tries to mess with the PC's only tries to talk when they're caught with no way of escape, and you honestly expect the PC's to engage in fair diplomacy?

Also, answer this question honestly, OP: is there some aspect or defining trait to the "good" empire that is or can easily be seen as your fetish?

Neither of those is enough to sway a person who just wants to win the war though. The first is just collateral damage, and the second politics he isn't interested in.

so...your players are based and decided to play a way better campaign that the one you wanted to railroad them in.
why not roll with that?

Are, for me it would be a "let them run with it and then have it bite them in the ass." You already said the devil wants to have the war escalate. Maybe they are TOO effective. Maybe the devil thinks they're ruining it's fun. So maybe it tries to kill the party poopers.

>a bloo bloo the characters aren't following my specially constructed railroad that I set up for them
>a bloo bloo the characters and players must be aware of the intended tone of the campaign so they can metagame all their decisions to fit that theme
>a bloo bloo I am bad at GMing and I can't adapt for shit

I know this is the first campaign youve ever run so I'll give you a break. If it isn't, then you are a fucking terrible DM. You remind me of why wizards of the coast have put out so many published adventures for 5e, because most GMs are unironically dad, and will describe how bad they are to your face with zero self-awareness. Usually it's about how amazingly related to some faggy video game the retarded campaign setting is. Working proud of how they will railroad the players through their absolute trash heap of a storyline.

I'd try to help you get better but honestly if you're this fucked, you're probably already a lost cause. My suggestion would be to quit DMing. You're not cut out for it and your campaign sounds gay as hell anyway. Just stop.

OP said they were uncomfortable with the way the party was handling stuff and wasn't enjoying DMing. If he's not enjoying DMing then there's not much point for him to continue DMing.

Fucking railroading cuck doing passive aggressive shit and crying about players on nigerian knitting forum. Fuck off you cuck

Probably the best way to handle this would be to have them win the war and then be used as a political tool by their empire in such a way that it would kill them. They are an elite special ops group, those get disavowed all the time and go rogue, often helping the enemy or becoming warlords. It would be easy enough to get them fighting their own empire.

If it was up to me, I'd stick with my side too. No way I'm turning race-traitor.

OP here: It's not that the other empire is good, it's that the PC's empire is actively under the sway of devils. Like, the PCs are supposed to cotton on that something isn't quite right, but I don't want to spoil the big plot twist for them by coming out and saying "Hey, there's infernal influence."

Let them win the war. Then have their side betray them. Easy as pie.

Are you dense?
This is perfect. The players aren't roleplaying as impartial heroes who only need access to the truth to start doing the right thing, they are playing actual, loyal, bloodthirsty soldiers who actively dismiss the truth that opposes their belief.

'oh no we were fighting for the wrong side all along!' is MUCH less interesting than 'jesus christ we have done some fucked up shit. has anyone noticed? should we stop?'

The twist in your story should not be, 'the PCs realize their kingdom is evil.'

It should be 'the PCs realize the PCs are evil.' And let them realize that on their own.

You haven't answered the fetish question.

Resistance arcs are trite and overplayed to all fuck. I don't blame OP's players for opting out of that tired bullshit

OP here: What fetish? It's a mainly-human kingdom versus another mainly-human kingdom, with the main difference being that the who started the war is being manipulated by devils. I'm not sure where you're getting the fetishistic part from.

It's just, you know, warfare.

It's comming up because you came here, told us that your players are playing wrong. In more words and in most cases that means you've got an ulterior motive.

Are you thrilled to your soul by brave resistance fighters?

Do revelations and 180 moral flips excite you? sexually or otherwise.

Why are you willing to consider dropping the game just because the players are refusing to follow your script?

Not really. I assume that freeing your kingdom from demonic influence is a pretty straightforward motivation, though. It's like "Oh shit, the King is possessed. Better stop him."

Nice projecting, bro.

There is nothing wrong with fighting to win for your country. NG PCs are fine.

>party are out kicking ass per usual
>the enemy has brought what looks like a cleric, probably to heal his allies they assume
>but the cleric doesn't heal anyone, he rushes full force into the fray
>he splashes holy water on them and it burns
>his religious trinkets and chants seem disproportionately powerful
>later the party begins to be hunted by multiple formidable groups of paladins, clerics and priests and their holy magic is kicking their ass
now the party has incentive to try and figure out what the fuck is going on as the curse only grows stronger, unbeknownst to them they are becoming literal demons themselves.

That's too forced.
I'd actually roll with it because neing part of the guys in charge sounds like a sweet deal for the party.

>should
Stopped reading there you fucking railroader.

they could always decide to go full demon if they wanted to, to make it fair they would begin developing powers of their own to combat holy warriors

Simple solution that might please everyone. Or piss everyone off. 50/50 really.

If they're happy working for the Evil Empire, let them! They're doing a bang up job of trashing the enemy country, hanging partisans, blitzing through the enemy defences.
Except oh wait, neighboring kingdoms are getting nervous, and good heavens did they burn down a village/church/orphanage/all of the above? How long until we're next? Maybe we should put our differences aside and deal with this.

Welcome to half of Europe's world history. Every time someone has started brutally conquering their neighbors, the rest of the continent stepped in to preserve the status quo and their own power. France, Germany, Sweden, the PL Commonwealth, Spain, Germany again, nobody wants to see their neighbor ruling over them.

The PCs are on the winning side now, but how quickly the tides of battle change.

So show some war atrocities.

>enslaved enemies
>evil king talking about evil shit openly while being super fucking wormtongued crazy
>evil king is even willing sacrifice his own daughter/whatever who we have come to like- what??
>PC's battalion is left to die in order to give their side an advantage
>PC's are asked to transport not enemy combatants but literally women and children
>I'm not saying mention rape but, yknow, handmaid's tale type of situation?
>heads on pikes
>dark ritual to please the devil
>PC's are asked to collect fucking babies to feed to this demon charybdis sarlac thing
>idk man more fucked up shit

maybe show allied soldiers who are not super down with stuff as well. have ALLIES throwing down their weapons and refusing to commit atrocities, and the players witness them being dealt with. Maybe have them capture some deserters? 'i just want to live my life, i was conscripted, pls' etc

A question occurs: what are the Devils trying to accomplish by manipulating the player's empire? Are they trying to spread the worship of evil gods? Are they looking to gather prisoners for human sacrifice? Are they looking to eventually overthrow the empire's human masters, and install themselves in their place?

Having the players see evidence of the Devils' plans in action would probably help to show that their own side is probably not a good side to be fighting for.

This is a very good idea.

Also if devils are involved, can celestials/gods help the other side?

The Black Company novels had a similar situation. What happened is that the protagonists, by accident, discovered means the destroy the Lady(that is, the immortal ruler of the said empire). Needless to say, things devolved from there and they ended up changing sides. Maybe you could set up a similar scenario?

It's your players' game. Not your game. If they want to be on the side that is worse, let them. Maybe eventually they'll change their minds but if the're dead set on staying with the devil empire, maybe just run the game from that perspective for a while instead of trying to force things.

>The PC told me "Oh, I know something's probably up, but I don't really care. I'm not interested in helping them in any way, I just want to win the war." This is a problem, because the other PCs just sort of go along with whatever the leader (who is, to his credit, the one most invested and interested in the setting) wants them to do.

You can agree or disagree with me, but these are just my two cents: roll with it. Roleplay is about playing a character that is not you, with his own view on the world and his own motivations. You, as the DM, are merely there to set the stage. In the end, roleplaying is cooperative storytelling, it's not DM vs Player and it's not the DM dotting out exactly what route the players walk.

It was a smart thing on your end to end the session then and there, because it now gives you the time to think out exactly how you want to roll with it. The PCs have freely and willingly aligned themselves with the greater of two evils, despite the resistance leader's exposition rant. The party leader (whom the rest of the party obediently follows) has already explained that he does not care, he just wants to win the war (presumably for some personal benefit, or honest loyalty to the devil-tempted king). Think about what this means: the PCs are now working for the devil. This is now an evil campaign. That fifth column resistance? They're now also enemies. Let the party feel the consequences for being evil, but don't force them to do anything they don't want to. Change what you had planned out for the future story to fit the needs of this new, now-evil party. If there were any paladin on board, they're now blackguards: they feel the consequences of their actions, but aren't screwed over entirely.

That's how I would do it, at least.

Fun things are fun, user. One thing I like to do before any campaign and on occasion throughout, is basically draw an eight way star and say to myself, "Ok, regardless of where I think character and NPCs alignments are going to go, what would they do in a purely Lawful Good path, a purely Chaotic Evil path, &c. How would the campaign go?" Trying to enforce neutral good is just as much a recipe for railroading as trying to make a no Evil PCs rule, or being an edgelord and declaring no Lawful Good PCs. Let your PCs continue and adapt accordingly. Make new NPCs. Take NPCs you really liked and make the party find them swinging from a gibbet as fodder for new quests.

As for ideas for your particular sitch, one unit can't win a war. My first thought would be rising incompetence within their own regular military, making their struggle meaningless. Or trap them in the same vicinity as the monarch with a natural or magical disaster; the party is forced to confront that something fucky is afoot, the monarch is weak, why shouldn't the PCs call the shots, haven't they done enough, &c.? Or, and maybe this is grating to you, but make Evil cool. Make the PCs heinous acts catch the eye of a suave Demon or other extraplanar who sets up an evil chess game with the opposing Devil.

if you don't want to run a 'slow slaughter campaign, have them run like... actual black ops rather than slaughtering people.

Have them infiltrate a group of nobles or merchants to ultimately betray them and open the gates for their soldiers maybe! Lots of chance for conversation and noncombat and getting to know the enemy

How about kidnapping an enemy archwizard!

Or uhhh, the war is going fine go off and gather this ARTIFACT OF GREAT DEMONIC POwER

Try and make it so that winning the war is no longer a palitable option. Reveal that the nation they're working for will sacrifice them for an infernal ritual after, have the party stumble across corrospondense that the empire their fighting for is bleeding themselves dry to keep up the war effort and both countries would be destroyed by any victory or defeat. Stuff that makes their position less secure.

Or give them an option of another faction to side with. Maybe they don't like a lesser of two evils.

So much this.

You have some players who willingly enjoy playing SS-commandos? NICE.

Use that.

Your Empire is winning big time. But hey your Demon possesed King isn't stopping there. He is starting new wars Left and right because the Demons doesn't fucking Care about winning. He wants Maximum carnage and leaving his Mark on history.

Their missions become gradually more Evil. At some Point they should round up Innocent civilians dir having the wrong Faith or whatever. While they are off doing genocide things (cause they are the elite) the war goes South for their side. The empire isn't telling them and they have to slowly figure that out themselves.

After that they have to Save their asses. Gather Money, acquire contacts and someone who can smuggle them out.

After that you have SS-members After WW2. They have to Keep a Low Profile. Everybody hunts them . But there is a new war dawning and their skills are valuable....

Their demonic master is still out there too.

it's tough to write a new campaign i know but that's DMing! Deal with it. Make cool stuff. Leave your comfort zone but don't write what you can't stand.

I fucking LOVE the SS members after ww2 idea DO THIS PLEASE, send them off on a dungeon mission and they come back and the war is LOST

dat booty

Does it really matter if the king is possessed if your side wins the war?

Ah yes the "welcome back to mai-lai situation. That could be really cool, especially if the resistance doesnt like them either. They are so deadly nobody trusts them, but too deadly not to unleash on your enemies. If the players have the "everybodys a gook" attitude then they become some preverted a team offshoot that works for money/revenge and figures if everyone is out to fuck them in the ass then they better fuck em first then you add a gritty tension.

Then they dont know WHAT to do. They can use either side, because they will earn a reputation (not respect, just recognition) so that some of the kingdom loyalists will want them as incredibly efficient and deadly assets, and the resistance want them because they know how the inner machinations of the empire work. Both sides also want them dead, at least in the back of their minds, because they all realize that the players are just TOO deadly and the world would be tougher, but safer without them in it.

Make it so convoluted that eventually they mockingjay it and kill everybody in charge so that noone is in charge. Thats the best part about being surrounded anyway, pick any side and you have a fight to win.

cool idea desu

Maybe quit the "muh evil empire must help the resistence" cliche shit and just go along with the sort of campaign they want.
What's wrong with being the bad guys?
You stumbled into an opportunity for something interesting but you'd rather railroad your players into doing what you want.
I mean you even said you want to get them back on "Track". Fucking really?

There is a Ton of good scenarios there:

>slowly start giving the players an overview over the whole war effort (if you aren't already you doing that)

>at some point stop this

>the players Pull off an incredible Mission to Save an Army

>when they return to the Base they are greeted by a Drunk General that sarcastically awards them medals while revealing that the 6th Army in fantasygrad was encircled and destroyed while the whole southern Front collapses

>there is a conspiracy to Kill the King and sue for peace (ofc npcs the players like See involved)

>Orders See Getting more and more senseless and desperate and less and less about the actual war

>freeing a captured general, upon returning this General is executed for cowardice

>they are tasked with helping a high Ranking Officer Holding a position
>upon Arrival they Realize a much younger and unexperienced Officer is in charge because the older One died when the position was lost

>partisans are popping up everyhwhere

>old contacts are acting more and more Distant and will backstab the group After the war

>Ah yes the "welcome back to mai-lai situation. That could be really cool, especially if the resistance doesnt like them either. They are so deadly nobody trusts them, but too deadly not to unleash on your enemies.

If you have never read the illiad, you should. Because your situation and OPs players sound like the Achillian soldiers in that story. They pledge no allegiance to the Greeks, and have no love for the trojans.

This is perfect if they want a "we could win it all" attitude but noone likes them and they dont give a shit about the morality of any of it, just the act of commiting war.

OP go full Achilles with your players, it woild be tight shit to see what they do.

Maybe they see no point in switching because the other side is also kind of evil.

The other side is less evil, because no demons.

So, skewered by a demon or a soldier, guy is dead.
Is it such a difference if a demon or a general commands to flood the trenches with sarin gas?
Maybe the players don't feel like a change of 0,3 hitlers is worth being traitors.
As the saying goes never trust a traitor, not even one you made.

Not him, but tone is the one thing that GMs should have control over, though its fairly easy to get your players into that mindset. I just have them watch a movie then say "thats what we're playing".

>Oh, I know something's probably up, but I don't really care. I'm not interested in helping them in any way, I just want to win the war
fucking based

This one:
>Also, answer this question honestly, OP: is there some aspect or defining trait to the "good" empire that is or can easily be seen as your fetish?

You sound a lot like that one greentext where the GM was surprised his players didn't help the furry rebellion.

youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

That is a true man amongst men. Peace and understanding is for fucking hippies.

Now you got yourself a kickass evil campaign. Not my usual kind of game, but it can be refreshing.

Source me on that one, sounds hilarious.

let the player power grow, they gain a following, wich after a while becomes big enough to worry the emperor (like they become a simbol of power etc) and then let the empite betray your party group.. but i guess it would take a while to set it up?

Well OP It sounds like you either need to stop DMing this particular game or let go of your investment in the NPCs in that other nation.

If I were you I'd have the devil start giving the king objectively bad advice for wining the war, probably to achieve some objective it wants. The PCs who want to win the war have reason to question the leadership.

>This is a problem,
No it ain't.
I wish I had players with a clear Idea of what they want to do instead of me having to clobber them over the head with the plot hammer.

Stop railroading. Your players want to be evil? Just run with it. Create some new storylines and challenges. If you've already got plans for the demon guys in charge of the kingdom being the BBEG and all that, just write it into your story.

Here's a quick idea:

>Although the evil kingdom no doubt sanctioned the nefarious missions carried out by the crackteam of PCs, once their immoral deeds come to light they seek to officially dissociate themselves with the actions undertaken by the 'rogue group of criminals' to appease neighbouring countries and their own civilian population who would protest such things. The PCs are now outcast criminals from the kingdom they belonged to while being hunted down by everyone else. Now they can work on taking down the designated bad guys, although it won't be because they've decided to do good(tm), it'll be for revenge.