Run 3.5 campaign for family for over a decade

>run 3.5 campaign for family for over a decade
>lots of fun,
> I don't like how everyone autohits at higher levels but it deal with it
>love the fluff and chargen options
>start visiting Veeky Forums and get redpilled on 3.5 but it doesn't bug me much
>start playing Pathfinder with new group
>they all bring special snowflake OP characters and powergame
>do rule of cool bullshit
>eventually I mentally check out of the campaign and just decide to have fun seeing how many I can kill off without being blatant
>now I fucking hate pathfinder
>start playing 5e and the rules are better but it's missing so much of the options and fluff that I enjoyed in 3.5
>neither system fulfills me
>have tried not playing d&d but want my d&d did, none of the retroclones are enjoyable to me
>start designing new fantasy world and can't figure out whether to design with 3.5 or 5e in mind

Anyone else know this feel? It's this mix of disillusionment and autistic dissatisfaction. When I ran games for my family they played normal races and classes and even though they used splat book shit it wasn't broken at all. 5th ed is so much more stable and balanced but it also bores the hell out of me. That said i like not having to read a bunch of shit for every new shit class they want to play in pathfinder. I guess i just can't win....

Try 4e

I played it for two years. With the pathfinder group. Thry started out playing 4e , i introduced them to 3.5 and they liked it so we switched whih literally destroyed the campaign. 4e was well made but it felt too different from d&d to give me my d&d fix. I didn't like 4e but once I understood what it tried to be I couldn't hate it. Thanks for The suggestion though.

Tried DW or RQ?

>"redpilled" on 3.5

You deserve the now senseless cynicism that deprives you of all future joy for falling for those trolls' exaggerations.

You're now doomed to wallow in the same empty existence that leads them to endless shitposting on this site. They'll be soon here to welcome you to their fold.

My advice? Drink what's beneath your sink while you still can.

Nah but i have the pdfs. Might be worth a shot.

3.5 is best. You got rused.

Well, i still like the system. I don't even mind the utility level of casters. I don't even mind SoDs to some extent. But the action economy, number balance, etc etc ...it always bothered me a slight amount but I wrote it off as "d&d being d&d". Then I played some other systems and understood it did have to be that way, except no other system had the same attractiveness to me as 3.5 and the dozens of options. It was THE authority to me, homebrewing seemed like taking an unfair shortcut. I spent years trying to perfect a shit6 character concept into a playable build.


Learning that my favorite system was so widely hates, was a crack. Then playing with my pathfinder group who have nuts damage output and negate pretty much everything I do with some mutated basic inspiration bullshit or playing races that are immune to shit,pisses me the fuck off. Or like the time a couple weeks ago an enemy wizard summoned somethimg and then "lol he doesn't speak it's language so he can't command it lolololol fuck you GM"

I mean its more shitty player than shit6 game but the fact that there is even gay shit like that is just annoying. I t tirnes the game into me wanting to kill as many PCs as I can without going more than 2 CRs above them, and hopefully a full party wipe so I can go core only. Which is kust as broken but at least I know the core material cold so I can prepare for it.

I agree. Its pathfinder that pisses me off more than 3.5, and I don't know why. 5e is good in its own right But it's like a side thing , almost a thought experiment. But pathfinder has just made me want to die. I want to go back to regular 3.5 but they have access to the fucking pfsrd so they'll never want to go back now.

>was so widely hates

Falling for the rabid efforts a few fervent trolls and taking their shitposting to heart? You really deserve your joyless future.

You seem like the kind of person who would screech because ToB is 'broken'.

Legend

Play 2nd edition matey, it is the best

Have you tried to playing d&d?

Not playing*

OP, Look into the high fantasy supplement for Mutants and Masterminds. It might hit the right notes for you. It's mostly D20 based, the rules are less of a clusterfuck and it does heroic action fantasy better then any version of D&D in my opinion.

Not broken. There were better ways to balance martials. Better will saves, changing the actions system, Dex to damage on ranges weapons, ability for fighters to maybe gain blindsense or energy resistance due to exposure to such. I don't like the system a huge amount but it's cool and I own the book (I own all the 3.5 supps) and I plan to run a campaign with it someday.

>anyone who criticizes 3.pf is a troll

Oh boy, here we go.

>I need to resort to hyperbole in order to even attempt to make an argument

I found one! I found one of the trolls!

You are literally Hitler.

No, Hitler probably had at least one redeeming quality.

If you like fluff and fucktons of chargen options, but you're annoyed by the nonsensical oddities of high-level 3.5, and don't like the lack of options and detail in 5e. Well, you're probably going to lambast me for this, but I think 4e might be for you.

It's over user, Mystify is all we have left.

I could make it up to you!

I could gas a few sjews!

It's not a coincidence that every T3 beatstick uses ToB or is a gish. None of your suggestions would fix them, either.

You can actually mod 5e a lot without breaking it. Don't like feats? Yank em out and replace them with Mutants and Masterminds superpowers. Don't like Backgrounds? Yank em out and put Fate aspects or 13th Age backgrounds in there.

And hell, have you actually tried not playing D&D? Run some one-shots to taste what else is floating around out there and even if you still think D&D is the cat's pajamas, it'll give you some design insight or houserule material.

Oh man, can't wait for you to reach maximum sperg and pull out copypasta about how 3.PF is, like, the BEST system out there.

I thought you'd want a break after the last two 3.PF hate threads but I guess autism never sleeps.

I'm pretty sure throwing something like ToB or 4E directly into 5E would instantly break the game and both of those are much more sedate than M&M superpowers.

Try looking into entirely different systems. Break free from D&D. It is your time.

>I need to resort to hyperbole in order to even attempt to make an argument

I found one! I found one of the trolls!

Now you're even resorting to using your own copypasta to make an argument.

Take a (you) and kindly remove yourself from this discussion.

Honestly man, if you want to get out of the rut and fill the hole that D&D left in your soul, you're better off branching out of the D&D niche and playing other games until you find what you're looking for.

Like, what is it about D&D that you loved the most?

Then run 3.5 if you liked that system. Plenty of GMs still do.

In terms of trying a system not D&D I think playing a retroclone is a bad idea as it's still got all the D&D baggage.

Play a new system in a different genre. Like a modern gurps game, an apocalypse world game or a superhero game in the marvel system.

GURPS

I like fantasy craft if you want something with 3.pf tier mechanics. The issue is that the rule book has awful pacing and it has some character abilities that freely give NPC contacts and other plot related benefits, but running it feels like 3.PF without the annoying parts to deal with.
Midnight is also really cool but it already has a stabilished setting.

Hey, if the shoe fits, troll, wear it.

>no other system had the same attractiveness to me as 3.5 and the dozens of options

GURPS

GURPS is such a shit system though. It's like someone saw people having fun with a roleplaying game, and thought "How can I make the entire process as tedious and meaningless as possible?"

*yawn*

Your trolling "tactics" lose steam after the third time you see it in 24 hours honestly.

Come back with some fresh material and I'll humor you some more but until then, last (you)'ll hear from me.

This isn't a troll post, honest, it just seems like the right thread.

I'm not a player of RPGs, but what is the appeal in D&D particularly?

Whenever I've looked at it, it seems to me to be about as rigid in rules as a wargame, like 40k. To the point were certain classes, creatures and weapons are OP in the same way certain army lists are. Like OP says you can work in that and just have a jolly time, same way I play stuff like Frostgrave instead of 2000pt tournament games of 40k.

I get roleplaying, creating worlds and characters, certainly with miniatures but even without. I just don't get why people play it to not really "roleplay", but to do an imaginary dungeon crawl of imaginary creatues without much actual "playing of roles".

If you can handle the bullshit minutia of 3.PF, you can fucking handle GURPS.

It's just something that people have fun with.
Crazy, right?
There's people who like justing Bieber, there's people who like sushi, theres people who like ERPing as furry animals wearing diapers, and there's people who like playing dungeon crawlers with their friends. It's not rocket science.

>t. a retard that hasn't even read the manual

This is exactly why many people don't like D&D. Because it disguises itself as an RPG, but it's actually a story-based tacticas game.

How your character acts, what actions he decides to do in a fight is just as much a part of roleplaying as any. Having a robust, but flexible system for it lets you do so with minimal amount of conflict at the table about what can/should happen, and this is important because you are playing a game where the assumption is that you get into a lot of these sorts of situations.

That's as stupid as declaring narrative games as not real rpgs cause they are storygames.

There's also absolutely nothing wrong enjoying the "game" aspect of the thing either.

Wow, look at this troll try his hand at damage control after getting BTFO.

Smartest thing you've ever done is run away. Good show.

You've never played GURPS

>hurr gurps is easy
>you just have to ignore all these rules
>system doesn't explain which ones, waste time learning what not to use

Can you give me a quick tl;dr rundown on how to play GURPS? Because I'm genuinely interested and find simple idle character creation pretty fun on the system.

It has a certain character to it that I grew attached to in my formative years. If you google Elder Evils and look at the cover of the book, you'll see the kind of thing I got attached to. And since D&D mechanics were the first mechanics I ever saw, they were "right", even when I saw better ways of doing things later on, they didn't feel as authoritative as D&D. Dunno how to explain it. And roleplaying game can mean as much as "I am playing an elf wizard therefore I am roleplaying" rather than "deep cahracter study." I've done both, both are great, but the former is easy and the latter is hard.

I always reccomend starting with GURPS lite and using Basic Set characters for player options. Once you get a hold of it add whatever rules you want from Basic Set Campaigns and other modules.

It does tho, GURPS lite states that its the boiled down essence of GURPS and that its for new players so they dont get confused. Considering its free theres no reason for new players not to start with it.

> I don't like how everyone autohits at higher levels but it deal with it
>start visiting Veeky Forums and get redpilled on 3.5 but it doesn't bug me much
>others bring special snowflake OP characters and powergamers
>start playing 5e and the rules are better
>... but it's missing SO MUCH of the options and fluff that I enjoyed in 3.5
>neither system fulfills me
>have tried not playing d&d but want my d&d did, none of the retroclones are enjoyable to me

Oh user. You are another me (except with kids? I guess)

>have tried not playing d&d
God, so many many many RPG I feel just don't come close to hitting the right mechanical mark I want in a game. 40K games are about the closest that I've come (actually surpassing D&D), but I feel when you play 40K games, you better strap in for 40K shit specifically, it's so very geared towards Future Destopia space world and nothing else.


OP, I tired playing Numenera (well The-Strange mostly) and which is NOT d&d, but I find it fills... mostly the same niches I enjoyed about it. And if your' like me and don't enjoy:
> all bring special snowflake OP characters and powergamer
Then perhaps we're on the same level.
Only for me It's really hard to get people to play it. Oh and don't mention that here on Veeky Forums. It's akin to blasphemy or something.

First of all, you need to own the table, man. But if you aren't willing to put your foot down I suggest doing a little commoner campaign. Very low point buy with no limits on classes.

>> I don't like how everyone autohits at higher levels but it deal with it
This is funny because is happening to us right now, we're 8th level in a PF game and everycombat is a race to see who rolls better damage because everybody autohits.

Then I rerolled a wizard and combats became a cake wall, I nullify enemies so hard Gm is not enjoying the game at all

Okay, so does 3.PF, so what's your point?

adnd2e
THAC0 is life

I definitely know the feeling. Sadly, most players are pretty reticent to try new systems.
There are a few good D&D-ish games out there that have some fulfilling options, and them being a bit more familiar will probably help convince them to at least try a session

>True20
Instead of classes there are 3 broad roles (Warrior, Expert, Adept) and you essentially build your own class through feats which can give you things normally locked into class features, like Sneak Attack and Favored Enemy, and you have the option to forego a feat choice to instead get a Power. It's also a generic system with good support for modern/scifi stuff, including handling powers as being tech-based.
It uses a version of Mutants and Mastermind's damage save system, which is suitably flexible.
Ultimately a pretty breezy take on the D20 System. I've actually been itching to run a Mass Effect game with it for a while.

>Rule of Cool's "Legend"
Free, but development is halted. The only thing missing is a bestiary. There are a lot of premade things on the game's forums, which makes that hurt a bit less.
Designed for player characters to eventually develop into mythic heroes in the fashion of Gilgamesh or Hercules. The skill system reinforces this: things start normally, but the highest skill DCs are things like climbing snowflakes as they fall, or swimming within the crest of a tsunami.
Each class has three "tracks" which grant features, and you can swap out one track for another to greatly customize how your character works. Magic items are explicitly granted as an element of character advancement, rather than just implicitly, and might actually just be exposure or access to 'places of power' that give you a permanent boon. Feats are also pretty different, each describing a way that you're unique: things like having Daredevil-like blindsight, or being able absolutely master a new language in only a couple days.

(cont.)

>Fantasy Craft
The second most consistent complaint I've seen is that spellcasters aren't as fun as in most games.
The most consistent is that the rulebook is dense (it is) and third is that the rules are too complex (they'll seem that way at first because the janky rulebook).
Worth at least looking at because it offers some the most baked-in, core-book accessible variety compared to any comparable game.
Among the more typical race choices are things like drakes and ents, and every race can be customized further with "species feats" which effectively balloon the number of race options quite a bit.
Aside from race, ever character's 'origin' also has a 'specialty,' that basically describes your characters background or career before adventuring. The classic D&D classes are all origins now.
Between your class and specialty, everyone will start off with a few core things that make them really stand apart and guarantee they have a role to play into from level 1 onward.

There's also Open Legend, but that's not really an offshoot of the D20 System and if I spend any more time typing this out I'll miss my train.

What about lower powered games but still in a fantasy setting?

>its more shitty player than shit6 game
Your players are playing the game as intended. My definition of a game not being shit would be when the players play as intended and that doesn't happen.

I know that feel, for my story is as yours, minus the new group of pathfinder fuckers. And slightly different in that I personally love AD&D and retro clones but my group just can't seem to into them.

5e is the better game, play-wise, but there's just something about having all the damn 3e splats and having some hilarious, magical mayhem.

Personally, I'd design your world with 5e in mind if the group you play with consists of optimizers (not even munchkins or powergamers willing to abuse or contort for power, just people who find fun in making their character good) since it's the system that holds up better to optimizers poking at it. I'd also design for 5e if you want a more 'earthy' fantasy world, since where 3e shines is in its ability to go to weird and esoteric corners of the universe. So if you want high fantasy and expect people who want to "be weird cool things and have fun" rather than "be powerful hero and kick ass", design for 3e.

If you do go 3e though, consider the following rules
1) Limit multiclassing. I'd suggest that players name a core class their character is and if desired a second core class (to be a roughly balanced X/Y) to take and/or a prestige class they're going for. You do not start prestige classes you do not intend to finish and dips need to be germane to your goals not just moar plusses
2) Allow low-tier core classes to Gestalt with other low tiers as described in the old 3e tier system article. It really, REALLY helps get players operating on par.

So more specifically, what did you have in mind for low-powered stuff?

True20's Conviction mechanic is part of how it manages player ability and resilience, so by limiting the pool size or slowing down how fast it comes back, or changing the ways you can spend it, you could make consequences 'stickier' and situations more perilous. The game also suggest limiting power access based on setting and tone.
That combined with the status effects of its damage system would illustrate what you're asking for.
You could also require in-game training or downtime to level, or have each part of their level up trickle into place one at a time.

Fantasy Craft has a scaling enemy system and per-adventure "threat level" mechanics that should help reinforce players being less overtly powerful if you so choose.
It also has something called "Campaign Qualities" which are modifiers for the GM to help define the tone and scope of adventures, some of them even on a scene-by-scene basis. Plenty of them reign in and moderate the sorts of resources the players have at every level.
You actually have to enable magic use using them, so by default there's no magic-using classes. You can also customize magic so it's an untrustworthy or corrupting force, like you might see in Conan the Barbarian or Dark Sun, amongst other effects.

D'oh, forgot the picture.