DM doesn't allow darkvision because it makes to logical sense

>Thread demands autistic screaming at DM

Darkvision always gets dropped anyways unless the party has really no way to deal with it. Normally someone just Dancing Lights or something else to hand wave it in my experience.

It's definitely a weird line in the sand to draw, but you can just talk to him.

Or not play. Good luck OP

>Practically, though, I think it would just mean players spend a few more dosh on lamps or sunrods or glowsticks or w/e.
This. I don't really get why everyone seems to be so upset that someone would houserule it like that, it feels incredibly minor.

But doesn't darkvision work by recognizing heat sources and not by seeing light, like a snakes heat pits? At least, that's what the drows use in the Drizzit novels.

The problem here isn't removing darkvision, it's the reasoning behind it. "It makes no logical sense?" Bitch, this is D&D. If you're removing rules because they make no logical sense, you might as well set fire to the rulebooks.

Couple things:

1) Night vision goggles amplify small, trace amounts of light until they're bright enough for human eyes to process as "vision". That's what allows them to see in the "dark". You could always argue that's what's happening with D&D darkvision, and that the "dark" is actually just levels of light too small for normal human eyes to pick up.

2) I read some of the Drizz't novels, and they described darkvision as thermal vision; darkvision users, when in low lighting, instead saw things based on heat. The hotter the brighter. As soon as light hits their eyes, they start seeing as we do. This allows darkvision to work even when there's literally zero light.

3) This is a setting with actual magic, and your asshole DM is worried about realism? Tell him how ridiculous he's being.

Infravision was a thing in AD&D 2e and prior, but even then there were creatures(such as fiends and undead) that needed no light or heat to see.

Races with darkvision actually emit light from their eyes, but it's at a wavelength that only that specific individual can perceive, so no one else can see the tiny little flashlights everywhere when a whole bunch of charcters with darkvision are in the same room.

>1337

I've been here too long.

It's an unnecessary rule with poor reasoning and stupid logic behind it.

But this is true. Unless it's magic, of course, if there is literally no light in an area then nobody can see. That's how eyes work, they need light. Again, unless it's magic of course.

But if DM anti-meta in the OP says it NEVER works then he should either ban darkvision races, or stop being a faggot and make a campaign that can't be broken in half by a cat.

Pre-3e the racial ability was "infravision", I.e. infrared/thermal vision. Drizzt was written before 3e came out and could do some cool descriptive things with infravision, unlike darkvision which explicitly clarifies that it's fucking boring.

I could sperg out about the laws of physics as understood in the 21st century, and how "darkvision", as described by non-phsicists is "impossible".

OR

I could just play this silly pretend game and have fun.

Hm. Tough call, to be totally desu.

I consider darkvision to be akin to echo location, the idea that you don't actually see anything but rather determine locations of objects based on vibrations. Similar to the concept in Perception.

youtube.com/watch?v=L_1zUXv5l7M

>I consider darkvision to be akin to echo location, the idea that you don't actually see anything but rather determine locations of objects based on vibrations.
That's explicitly blindsense/blindsight. Like, with darkvision you can still get blinded, can't see in magical darkness, etc.

Darkvision is a carry over from pre 3E when blind fight didn't exists. Also the way I view blindsnese is that you are listening for movement of others rather than the sound of your own echos.

>Darkvision is a carry over from pre 3E when blind fight didn't exists

But blindfighting is literally a skill fighters can take in AD&D.

>What's ultraviolet
>What's infrared
>What's lots of other radiations
Kill him

I think it'd be more fun to have it be shared wavelengths.

DM here, I wanted a campaign where darkness actually mattered so I just house ruled darkvision as Low-Light vision. Pretty much every race in 5e has darkvision anyway, and I feel like it should be something that is less easily available to just negate an entire concept of environmental hazards. Low-light vision allows characters to see dim-light as light, so they don't roll with disadvantage. You could suggest this as a compromise, or maybe darkvision gets replaced with something of equal value, maybe some stat bonuses or something.

Literally everything emits even a small amount of radiation, also it's FUCKING MAGIC.

You are my nigga.

If he thinks darkvision shouldn't be allowed because it isn't logical than he isnt very logical. If he wants no darkvision because of mechanics and wanting the party to have to deal with darkness with more than nothing, then he's fine.

This reminds me of that stupid story about how a kid "outsmarted" his GM by explaining the logic of the invisibility spell.

I would go with this. Maybe actual darkvision for races with sunlight sensitivity.

I'm not familiar with it; care to elaborate?

I can't remember, secretly I was hoping someone else would.

I think it was something about how if a creature is invisible then light couldn't reach its eyes therefore it's blind. Kid - 1, GM - 0, magic = told.

I actually find universal dark vision a relief as I don't have to worry about finicky pointless vision rules that are impossible to get your head around without playing on a battle map.

My group all has dark vision, I actually forgot we had a new player in who didn't and treated it as though he did. Such is the usefulness of that rule.

I don't allow player races with darkvision. I changed all the existing races to have some form of better lowlight vision, but absolutely no playable race can just "see in the dark."

The dark is the domain of monsters and other supernatural entities. Therefore, restricting vision helps the game out thematically. The PCs are the outsiders, they're going into the dark forgotten places bringing light so they can observe what is in there. It makes the players a target, marks them as "the other", it restricts vision allowing for ambushes and making scouting a real decision instead of bs, and related to that and perhaps best of all, it curbs some of the abuse of rogue class mechanics, ESPECIALLY in later editions of DND where rogues can reliably stealth from pretty much anything.

Well, we've established that darkvision is just a mix of various other ways of perceiving around you besides sight. Now we must also accept that being invisible does not in fact render you blind - meaning invisibility spell also allows you to at least briefly tap into these other means of perception.

In conclusion, invisibility grants you darkvision.

That depends on the rather pedestrian assumption that the invisibility spell allows light to pass directly through your body somehow. If you have an invisibility spell that actively processes incoming light and re-emits it on the other side then it's trivial to design one that still allows you to see.

I like to think of invisibility as a really good, really accurate chameleon blending: you take the exact color and texture of whatever's behind you at the time.

The problem with that is "behind" is observer-dependent. You have to know who's observing you and from where, and if there's more than one then you're not invisible anymore; just really well-camouflaged.

Infrared is also light

>cast invisibility
>makes light pass straight through you
>go completely blind
>it's ok, you have darkvision

You guys would hate me then.

I home rule that if you have Darkvision, you can't see worth shit in direct sunlight and receive the same penalty as a person with no Darkvision trying to see in the dark- otherwise I feel Darkvision is just too good and useful.

Keep in mind, though, I'm more of a "The fun comes from it being not fair, you're supposed to fucking THINK and ADVENTURE" kind of DM, so this is pretty par the course for me.

So you just gave all races with Darkvision Light Sensitivity?

Dark vision is horrible. Not because of realism but because it far too easily eliminates a standard human weakness. Especially if it's just a racial trait, it's about as ridiculous as letting someone play a race with flight.

infrared is also spontaneously emitted by all bodies above the absolute zero

Do you also limit regular vision to 60 feet?

No it isn't. You need to get significantly above absolute zero before there's any infrared in form of black body radiation.

The problem is that he's
A) Not being honest about his reasons, and hiding behind this retarded rationale
or
B) Genuinely this retarded.

Personally, if GMs want to edit rules or abilities because they don't like them, I have no issue with it, but at least be upfront and honest about it.

>So you just gave all races with Darkvision Light Sensitivity?

Yes, thank you- I should have just said that.

No, that's actually much worse than regular light sensitivity.

Then those dubs were well earned

Just fucking check them

>isn't it explicitly said in both the phb and the dmg that darkvision isn't vision as such, but rather various other senses working together to form what is effectively sight?
It doesn't say anything about how it works, only that you see in black and white.

Well, it doesn't
I'd ban it just because it prohibits using natural darkness as a challenge. It's not fun to adventure with no challenges.

That's how blindsight works, and why it works even when suffering from the blinded condition, unlike darkvision. Darkvision is sight based and works through some unexplained mechanism that amounts to "it's magic"

Mandate all PCs to be terminally ill and missing a limb of their choise, that's challenging and unfair, too.

To be fair being able to see in darkness is a ridiculous advantage.

To the point nobody would ever want to play a race without it, especially in a game focused on dungeon exploring, if not for the fact that almost all DM's are so shit they make one torch provide perfect daylight.

>What is drow PC
>What is duergar PC
Even with the more common races, you're homebrewing out quite a lot of racial history /specialty, especially those that are racialy connected to underground and those that live in the dark to a lesser extent. You're making fantasy races more mundane/ diurnal. What are you giving them in exchange for maiming racial abilities?

Write better campaigns or play a different game, or make it humans only.

That exists it's called light sensitivity, a lot of races with darkvision have that.

Do you even read the books?

If you are playing 5e, its obnoxious that most of the non-human races have darkvision, even when it doesn't really makes sense for them. It makes keeping track of lighting rather pointless and can ruin horror games.

I forced all my players to be human when we did Ravenloft

Some of you have no business GMing, just write your shitty novels instead or learn the rules better to make more challenging encounters.

Spells can create darkness where even darkvision doesn't work you chumps, there's no need to nerf darkvision.

>53952640 (You)
Sure, fuck over discrete scouting, archery and spellcasting at anything beyond short range for 3/4 of the races if they ever get out of they lighting.
It is not "THINK and ADVENTURE, it's being That Guy GM.
Beings that are living exclusively in the dark tend to have something like blindsense, not darkvision, and actually being blind. Having vision permits some perception in-between light and darkness, like being able to see a bit under the moonlight or after getting your eyes used to the darkness in a ship.

>implying invisibility isn't making the light that bounces off you avoid enemy's eyes

It is infrared vision. No, that is not the same thing as heat vision.

Anyone that has used modern night vision gear knows exactly what dark vision would look like.

>allowing villainous NPC races as PCs

One of the reasons I enjoy human only parties is no darkvision.

It actually requires tactical thinking and stealth.

>Entering a Dragons Lair
>It's a deep dark damp cave
>He's bound to a lot of minions protecting his hoard
>Do you attempt to sneak in or do you accept the fact you're going to need to use a torch/or cast light
>There's a sound in the dark, what is it? Could be harmless...could be the dragon
>AKSHULLY I HAVE DARKVISION AS AN ELVEN RANGER SO I CAN SEE PERFECTLY FINE EVERYONE FOLLOW ME *pushes glasses up nose*

>Human weakness
>In a universe of might, magic and fantasy with a lot of PC non-hominid races.
>Hate for flying races in a fantasy world partly made of the Plane of Air
Darkvision is required for the fantasy adaptation adaptation of a race active in dark places or the night.
Flight-capable races are very rare, and most come from Planes where lack of it would mean death as a specie

I played in a party where everyone had darkvision.
We used it to run around trolling humans.

There are mechanical reasons to play humans and other races without darkvision.
Then you need to compensate the affected races.

give them low light vision, like what they had in every other edition

Elves don't have darkvision in d&d but ok.

Drow race is in the PHB and this is 2017, you quart-sized mong.
An way to go dismissing the rest of the post.

...

Then it'd require a WIS saving throw to disbelieve, even without touching.

What the fuck edition is this?

>shoehorning your PCs into being boring heroic characters when you know they are going to be careless murderhobos 85% of the time

That doesn't require thinking or adventuring, that requires Riddick goggles and tedium.

>allowing drow in any party not totally composed of them
It's like you want to be stabbed to death in your sleep

The current edition user. What the fuck edition do you think it is?

Drow would be allowed darkvision. They need something to compensate for the fact every npc would try to kill them on sight

Who said you/they see in human visable light spectrum, bees don't and neither would a hypothetical elf or other being with it.

Override him or ban him from D&D for life! Serious assumptions require serious penalties!

It sounds like so edition so new you don't know how to run it properly so already you're nerfing things you don't understand instead of finding ways to overcome these meager benefits

Oh....you're both banned for life. Have fun arriving for your next game, honey, because it's not going to happen!

== This user was banned for this post. ==

> I miss the olde days.

>ELVES DON'T HAVE DARKVISION
>Gets proven wrong
>Can't even recognize 5e
>ACTUALLY YOU'RE A SHIT DM
>Implying I'm the same user who nerfs darkvision, I said I enjoy human only parties

Stop replying to me.

This is why Veeky Forums needs IDs...shits embarrassing.

What are you on about?

You might want to reread the lore, user.
Unless you are talking about your homebrew again.

Shut the fuck up and git gud scrub

So...just use Tor?

He needs to make some adjustments to the game to fill the hole it left behind, but I agree with him. It should be reserved for special monsters (mainly the true underdark ones, like beholders) rather than practically everything but humans. I've toyed with the idea of mostly replacing it, making most monsters have to rely on non-sight senses or else get some light, and maybe remaking some monsters to be blind but have echolocation or tremorsense or whatever. Leave the spell darkvision alone; it's fine to get it from a short duration spell (but no permanency).

>actually using "it's current year" argument.
It's like you want people to disregard your post outright.

You're right, user, I shall summarily ban niggers and sandniggers from being PCs.

I think the 5e haters would like it better if they ever bothered to read the books.

He likes being a nigger, and his imaginary players like it when he is, too. The fact that they're all elf lolis that call him "daddy" doesn't matter one bit to this argument.

Sounds like you have the rare breed of GM on which the infamous Peasant Railgun might actually work.

Engineer it, hopefully the absurdity will demonstrate to him why you can't apply real world physics to D&D.

Darkvision was the worst thing post-3rd ed and free cantrips are the worst thing post-pathfinder. Your DM is a man of taste.

>and can ruin horror games
You're already doing that by running them in 5e.