What would the warfare look in a D&D5e-based setting if the nobility are mages and armies are capable of fielding up to...

What would the warfare look in a D&D5e-based setting if the nobility are mages and armies are capable of fielding up to 5000 wizards and sorcerers up to level 3, and up to 500 up to level 5? Maybe even a dozen up to 10.

The ceiling numbers are for the great powers, like France was in medieval Europe. The average army would have half if not quarter of it.

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How do they get the required exp?

Malazan, pretty much. Most battles consist of the magic users cancelling each other out, with the occasional volley landing through a squad or platoon of men. When the magic users are unbalanced, battalions are destroyed. When there are no opposing magic users, armies vanish entirely--or more likely simply surrender/run.

Well, an argument could be made that "armies" as we think of them wouldn't happen.

Large-scale battle tactics are largely a function of shields, melee weapons, and personal ranged weapons becoming more effective in formations. To grossly oversimplify, think of two opposing shield walls forming a battle line. There will be attrition over time, but the losers will almost certainly be the first army to break formation or get flanked.

Casters flip this upside down, though. The tighter packed the enemy are the more value they can get out of AoEs, encouraging each side to spread out as much as possible to prevent this. As a result, the "field as many people as you can at once" concept seems less likely to catch on as a valid method.

Personally I think its more likely that you'd see some form of platoon/fireteam structure based on fielding mixed-role units of 8-12 individuals more focused on being able to set up interlocking fields of fire than on advancing a battle line.

So less Agincourt/Gettysburg and more Danang/Baghdad.

602 pages of tax payer funded inspiration: usacac.army.mil/sites/default/files/misc/doctrine/CDG/cdg_resources/manuals/fm/fm3_21x8.pdf

Incidentally, and suggestively, if you shrunk the numbers a bit and tossed in a melee frontliner, medic, and an a scout/infiltrator it starts to look suspiciously like your average adventuring party.

>Incidentally, and suggestively, if you shrunk the numbers a bit and tossed in a melee frontliner, medic, and an a scout/infiltrator it starts to look suspiciously like your average adventuring party.

Because I'm worldbuilding for a military campaign.

Groups of 4 of them kill 36 Orcs over a few days.

>Industrialized Orc hunts like the great Buffalo rangings of old
>Tusked skulls piled as high as houses

Werrll... In my game the reason that most kingdoms avoid using mages in large scale conflicts are, well, PTSD.
Some soldier gets back home and has an "incident" worst case scenario he'll stab the barkeep or slaughter his family. A sorcerer comming back home with a case of PTSD nightmares, there's your next big villain.
Long story short, nothing good comes of putting individuals with great personal destructive capabillities (or necromancers, jesus dont get me started) in situations where they will be trained to kill without empathy.

Also, why would you waste your valuable wizards blasting shit? Some will die, either by counter-archery fire, lucky trebuchet hits or by the hands of enemy infiltrators.
The real value of spellcasters in a war would be to safeguard high ranking officials with scrying spells, gather information via scrying, or to relay information in fast and precise ways via spellcasting, via methods that cant be intercepted.
Not to mention that logically, blasting regiments on the frontlines takes them away from whatever crucial civil magical research they were working on, shit, i dunno, crops resistant to magical blights? New, more effective magical medicines? Novel magical items?
It'd be like sending your top physicists and mathematicians to man the artillery in WW1, they made a law against that you know?

Mages are the high ranking officials, aka monarchs and aristocracy.

Hmmmm... Gotta field the aristocrats, morale and all that. Gonna be bad if they die though, losing your ruling class in a war can be bad for a monarchy.
Especially so since i assume magic takes time to learn. The thing is that having your entire ruling class wiped out in agincourt isnt so bad if you can just replace them with 13 year old heirs.
The situation is different if the aristocrats possess great personal powers that can only be accumulated through time.
That makes them a non renewable ressource.

I'd say i'd rule to keep the aristocrats a long way away from combat if i were king. Or confined to administrative duties.

>wizards
>wiped out
pick one

Think about what spells mages get at level 5. Now think about which spells would be used in battle and how they would affect the battle. That's it.

wizards are hardly invincible at level 3-5

if the battle goes to shit, they will have few spells left and not much in the way of serious teleportation options. it would be wise to put them on horses so they can flee if things go wrong, but if they get flanked the wizards will have a bad time in close combat, especially if we assume there are a similar number of other classes.

>scrolls

Shits expensive at levels 3-5. You're going to outfit half your army with something that costly?

Somewhat related: how practical would it be to arm troops with wands?

Why do everyone wizards are immortal gods? Yes, they have the possibility to become, but cmon.
They're as human as the next guy, an arrow out of the dark, a dagger when they sleep, fast acting poison in their food.
Especially in lvl 1-5, they're basically just commoners with more knowledges and the abillity to grease the floor from a short range.

Not to mention the psychological aspect. Wizards are human, humans can be cheated, baited, intimidated, surprised and attacked psychologically.

Does the mage army level up during the war?
This is important.

basically a nuke

>an arrow out of the dark, a dagger when they sleep, fast acting poison in their food.
Shield, alarm, detect poison/disease

>Alarm
Hope they got every possible exit
>Detect poison/disease
Yes, blow all your spell slots on breakfast and see if you can still survive the battle in the afternoon

This exactly. Mages are ranged superiority. The first total war with a military force you've described would quickly reach World War I trench warfare levels with Magic Missiles being Fire and Forget perfect one-shot-kills. If you can see the enemy, they are dead.

More importantly your mages would actually be trained to fire their weapon and kill, unlike the majority of soldiers in war.

Magic Missile is a first level spell, so even if you have a lot of middling-level intelligence mages you're pumping through your War Wizard college they can all at least learn Magic Missile. This means any force not fielding basic infantry mages with magic missile automatically lose.

You can have dedicated caster units for group protection spells, fireballs, counterspelling, etc. Higher level spells like Cloudkill essentially act exactly like Mustard Gas.

Basically Fantasy World War I, only without the extreme range of artillery but the same massive death tolls and sudden need to adapt to the new face of war.

Both of those are rituals. A wizard could surround themselves in alarms and detect every single bit of food in the camp without touching their slots.

Detect Poison and Disease isn't a ritual.

More alarming is that all these counters to basic human weaknesses are 1st level.
Wizards stop being human by first fucking level.

the spell is a ritual, but it's not a wizard spell, so it's a moot point either way

Not like they can't learn it through magic initiate, ritual casting, MCing, etc.

if we're talking about 5000 wizardruids this is a very different scenario

i think it's a safe assumption that only a minority of low-level wizards also know divine magic

Can you even call it divine magic when learned through a feat? It's not like any spells work differently than others; it's all the same system of magic. This theoretical wizard soldier wouldn't need to worship any god or even have very good wisdom. He'd just need to go to rituals 101 class or participate in the magic initiates program.

Magic Initiate, fluffwise, is literally becoming an initiate in another school of magic, which would certainly mean that any Wizard wanting to learn it would have to go study with a cleric or a druid for a time.

By the rules, there's no restrictions, but by the same token theres no RAW restriction on an entore nation of humans being variant humans and having that feat to know Wizard spells without having to ever study.

>but by the same token theres no RAW restriction on an entore nation of humans being variant humans and having that feat to know Wizard spells without having to ever study.
And so we come to the justification for humans dominating every setting

however you interpret it, it's obviously not a common spell for wizards to have it or it would be part of their list in the first place.

besides, wizards don't get any feats until level 4 so the bulk of our hypothetical wizards wouldn't have it anyway.

>Mages behave like knights, killing peasants is fine, but a defeated mage should be taken prisoner and ransomed or if he is mortally wounded put out of his misery
>Mages train by going on grand hunts where they hunt horrible beasts and subhuman races
>Mages tend to prefer singling out other mages in battles in order to prove their capabilities against worthy opponents

Until they have mages with magic missile and shield, which is a perfect defense against magic missile. At that point, using another spell such as fire bolt or sleep (if in range) would be necessary.

Then the major issues would likely be range-related, with crossbows outranging the spell with disadvantage. Shortbows, longbows and heavy crossbows all CAN out-range the spell, but they aren't as generally accessible, as light crossbows are simple weapons.

>Why do everyone wizards are immortal gods?

They started with 3.5.

I think such massive levels of magic users flinging out spells would completely change the nature of fantasy warfare.

You wouldn't get massed infantry anymore because of all the AoEs.

Ranged combat would be the order of the day. The average soldier would probably know some basic combat Cantrips and level 1 spells. Certain members of the squad might be issued magical items like spell scrolls or wands to allow them to cast higher level spells, like a modern soldier in a fire team being issued a machine gun or grenade launcher. They'd probably operate in squads like modern warfare.

"Artillery" equivalents would arise in the form of constructs like Warhammer Fantasy's Luminark of Hysh (magic laser cannon) as well as entire cabals of spellcasters pooling their strength into big time spells like Meteor Swarm or curses, far behind the front lines. To counter such cabals, each side would probably develop counterspells and defenses, as well as special forces strike teams to infiltrate behind enemy lines and sabotage the rituals.

Mass summoning and construct-building would probably be common. I can picture entire factories of golemancers cranking out golems, shield guardians, warforged, etc., like a magical parallel to modern drones. Demon summoning and necromancy would probably be resorted to after manpower has been depleted and the death toll rises.

If you ignore any fluff behind it, sure.

This concept has always interested me, so let's break it down: The OP assumes that only nobility have the capability of becoming wizards, but the rules don't really reflect this. The only limitation on learning to become a wizard is Intelligence and since an Intelligence of 10 is human average that means that 50% of the population should be capable of becoming middling magi.

If you look at the multiclass rules it states that only people of Intelligence 13 can multiclass into wizard, so that seems to suggest that you want to train your wizards young. This means mass education, which means the economical infrastructure necessary to support a college: wizard professor salaries, spell components, materials for creating spellbooks, etc. All costly, yes, so at first no doubt this will be an avenue only available to the sons/daughters of merchants and nobility.

Still, let's say one progressive, educated kingdom fields a small unit of these special magical officers. As already mentioned in the thread, they will quickly change the face of warfare in the way the longbow or rifle did on our world. Any enemy nation that went up against this special unit would be devastated by 5000 Level 1 wizards wielding only magic missile.

Any country that didn't quickly adapt and begin educating their own populace would be at a severe disadvantage in war. In the same way the English longbow was required teaching to peasants I believe you would begin to have parents sending their children away to make something of themselves as wizards at college. Again: You only have to be average intelligence to be a useful wizard. That's two Level 1 spells per day, plus infinite cantrips as a sort of "sidearm". And what peasant family wouldn't want for their child to do this? It's a chance at prestige, higher pay, a better livelihood once the war is over, and better chance of survival than the same peasant boy would have had as a conscript back in the bad ol' days.

More likely it'd be warlocks, they're a lot more useful in situations like this especially with short rest recharge. Add to that the fact that maybe a solid amount of them have taken Pact of the Blade and can hold their own in close combat.

Opens up a lot of cool ideas for your war, OP. What supernal deity or being is handing out pacts to thousands of battle-ready warlocks? If there's an equivalent number of warlocks on the other side, is this really a war between two gods and not two nations, where humans are used as foot soldiers? Or perhaps one king simply has no choice but to rally his own army of warlocks now that he knows his enemy has one - what (undoubtedly colossal) price is he paying to this demon king to have him back his men in this war? Gold? Arcane secrets? Souls of the damned?

Sounds like you'd end up with something like Bael Turath, as pact-making becomes systematized and half your nation ends up beholden to the devil.

Same fag here.

I also think there'd be massive death and suffering, to an extent that we'd see a magical equivalent to the Geneva Convention arise. They'd probably outlaw shit like demon summoning and necromancy, as well as particularly nasty spells like Cloudkill, etc.

There might also be restrictions on when lethal force is even warranted, (even in combat) considering that there are many non-lethal spells that can neutralize or incapacitate threats (Sleep, Hold Person, various enchantments to affect the mind like charms, etc).

Also, if there are this many spellcasters organized by govts, then you're on the verge of a Magic Industrial Revolution, since a lot of them could probably pool their knowledge to start coming up with new spells and magic items. How long before they start mass production of potions of healing, wands of magic missiles, and other stuff? How long before they start studying magic itself using the scientific method, i.e., using observable evidence, experimentation and peer review?

I agree with most of this, but 5000 level 1 wizards with magic missile, guaranteed hit or not, are not going to devastate their equivalent number in level 2 warriors. Against level 1s, certainly, but Magic Missile by itself, even with two shots, does not do enough damage to do more than kill 1/2 of the opposing force. If we assume the remaining force rallies (or was held in reserve), the wizards will get mopped up, cantrips or no.

A Magic Missile cast by by a 1st Level spellcaster does an average 10 damage, the Fighter Hit Die is 1d10, so the average 2nd Level fighter will have 11 hp. This means that a typical 1st Level Wizard can kill even a 2nd Level fighter in most cases. Yeah, it's not perfect, but when you have 5000 perfect accuracy missiles you have the equivalent of a fantasy machine gun: If you pop up, you die. But that way of thinking will no doubt be the first reaction: Swarm them! Typical WWI meatgrinder tactics. Then when they get even closer you could have a few mages with Sleep which will take down even more of them....

Really the main limitation on all the spells in 5th Edition is their range. 120 ft isn't really that far away. Long bows definitely still outclass that.

A lot of Wizard superiority is caused by NARPs sitting around telling each other greentext stories where the wizard in question always has the right spell, circumstances, resources, and DM rulings necessary for a solo win and completely disregarding how Wizards handle in actual play. Basically the equivalent of someone pretending to be a gambler trying to argue that Craps is the best game because you make infinite money as long as you have an unbroken string of 7s, ignoring that anyone who actually plays knows that's never going to happen in actual play.

It's pretty fucking endemic around here, really.

Whether people want to admit it or not single-classed wizards have no Int requirement, and there's a non-insignificant number of spells that don't use it (thanks in part to EKs.) So you could pretty much turn anyone with non-animal intelligence into an expendable Shield/Missile unit.

It might be fun to do a hook about the divide between the high-intelligence "real" wizards that are intended to go on to deeper study through higher levels and the missilespam grunts.

What about clerics/druids/etc in the grand scheme of this?

Can you upload the pdf to a different site? The page seems to be either blocked from Eurostania or unresponsive...

I planned on running a 3.5 game with a war between an arcane empire and a theocratic sun-goddess worshipping clerical empire at one point, but never got around to it.

I feel like Druids would probably be completely detached and opposed to such a conflict as it would invariably wreck havoc on the landscape, but given their initiation methods they probably don't have the infrastructure to compete against wizard War Colleges and churches.

This all of course assumes the god of said clerics would be willing to give out spells in such an industrialized manner. Most likely a War God.

Sounds like war gods would become extremely popular. Other gods might even become more lax just to retain worshippers.

Bump

Wow...

Since when did Magic Missile, cast by a first level Wizard Average 10HP? That is crazy in comparison to earlier editions.

Okay. I have come to the conclusion that npc level up most on the roleplaying system. They take a long time, but it is steady. Commoner have a lot of chance to become more, while noble are more restricted. They could spend their entire life being 1/4 cr creature. Some creature, such as the Dragon, have the benefit of passage of time with the roleplay mechanic making it able to level up at an incredible rate. It also explain why the higher level you are tougher enemy show up.

...

AoE damage is baby mode. Use something like Confusion on a mass group of enemies, and watch as a third of them start attacking their allies and another third stand around idiotically. That will ruin a medieval battle formation and their soldiers' morale better than a fireball.

>The only limitation on learning to become a wizard is Intelligence and since an Intelligence of 10 is human average that means that 50% of the population should be capable of becoming middling magi.

Wizards learn magic through studying texts, training under teachers, and the like. They're learned people and that education costs time and money and resources that not everybody can afford.

So asking why everyone isn't a Wizard is like asking why every farmer isn't some kind of artisan/scribe/alchemist.

At a point most couldn't afford to learn to read or write, learn advanced algebra, be taught world history or any of the sciences, yet here we are now. Everyone isn't a artist or scientist, but quite a few have a basic competency that was never possible before.

If it's a question of time/money/resources, systems can be put in place. Capability is the only hard restriction from a world building standpoint.

Trying to apply fantasy rules (aka magic) to realistic/historical situations is ultimately worthless and useless because we have no standard to judge them by seeing as magic isn't real.

Yeah, but we only managed that because of advanced printing machines allowing making texts easier and cheaper to acquire.

Also, at the end of the day, would magocracy even want to increase the number of wizards? Wouldn't they be more jealous of their power?

>Also, at the end of the day, would magocracy even want to increase the number of wizards? Wouldn't they be more jealous of their power?
Sure. Then the magocracy that taught it's troops firebolts and shield spells steamrolls the jealous hoarders.

Halruaa

But chances are that after steamrolling jealous hoarders, the progressive magocracy is the next to be steamrolled.

steanrolled by people incorporating the same or better tactics. Point is, magic capable troops are likely to become common place as soon as it's shown to be successful.

Anybody else nerfing barbarians ?

It's pretty absurd that the guy wearing a loincloth has a better AC value than the guy in chainmail.

I've removed the bonus to AC from con but given them twice the con bonus to hp per level. They should be meat tanks not impossible to hit beings made of stone.

...What?

This post is pretty off-topic, but I think you make an interesting alternative to Barbarian tanks. A shitload of HP with only moderate AC. Sounds cool.

Why not just pump con and str and ignore dex? Or remove dex to AC but keep con? It would acheive the same effect without demanding they be MAD