Value Town 40k 8th Edition

>Not really, I beat my friends crons 2-0

So apparently necrons aren't massively OP, no matter what the ghost arks cost. It's almost as if looking at the power and points cost of something in a vacuum is fucking retarded, and that at the end of the day you want the various options to have their place in their respective armies, and then the armies themselves to be balanced against each other.

But no, let's bitch and whine that the armies we don't play get this or that shiny toy that we don't, and that the cost of them doesn't fit with our gut feeling of what it should cost (lots and lots and lots).

>and some lascannons

So, the potential to deal up to 24 damage (at absolute maximum) to a high toughness/armor target from 48 inches away?

Yeah, "just some lascannons."

Fuck off.

I'm looking from a design perspective comparing two similarly stat'd units.

Dude, you can bring 2 preds for almost the same cost with double the lascannon fire. 2 twin lascannons are fucking nothing for an army where a 5 man marine squad can take one.

And then have your termies drop almost anywhere on the board for free. Making the LR null.

That'd work if they were two units in the same army, sitting in the same force organisation slot, etc. But they aren't. They are in entirely different armies, filling different functions and interacting with different units and rules there. They are parts of different wholes.

Poeple fight each others with army against army. Thus it is the armies that should be balanced against each other, not the units. Then within the armies unit should be balanced against each other so there's a place for everythign, with no worthless/trap options. And the latter part there isn't just a matter of points, but also of force org concerns, etc.

If you try to balance unit against unit between armies you will unbalance the armies against each other, and unit against units within the armies since you first balance the units in one context (in vacuum against each other), and then put them in an entirely different context (within their army, facing another army) when it's time to actually play.

And to make matters even worse your criteria for points cost here is apparently just whatever you feel like is right. Even when the play-testing you have done apparently suggests the GA isn't overpowered, you still think the advantages it has are huge, and that the lascannons on the land raider isn't. That's not a good way to go about it all.

>assmad mr skeletal doing damage control

Fair points, but I never implied they should be balanced against each other, I implied that the units should be representative of their points value. But I concede the point. For a little extra information, I sat there confident that my opponent would ride his GA into a trap, which happened, and I (not knowing what QS did at that point) put 8 lascannons and 6 meltas and 24 bolters into it, and I did 5 wounds with him regaining 1. I naturally almost conceded the game at that point from salt. Still won tho.

Veeky Forums at its finest, weakass ad hom to avoid having to deal with constructive arguments.

>Ass blasted Smurf fags with their overpriced garbage.

>but I never implied they should be balanced against each other, I implied that the units should be representative of their points value.

Point values aren't there to tell you the powerlevel of shit, they're there to balance armies against each other. (And as a result they kinda tell you what the powerlevel is.)

>(not knowing what QS did at that point) put 8 lascannons and 6 meltas and 24 bolters into it, and I did 5 wounds with him regaining 1. I naturally almost conceded the game at that point from salt.

Yeah, we can tell. You didn't do your homework, probably brought the wrong tool for the job because of that, may have rolled poorly while you were at it, and so things didn't go your way. Unable to deal with that you've decided that the GA is badly undercosted and have come to us to whine about it.

>Point values aren't there to tell you the powerlevel of shit, they're there to balance armies against each other. (And as a result they kinda tell you what the powerlevel is.)
wut?

The goal of the points values is for us to be able to pick evenly matched armies for a fair fight.

They are not meant to be directly representative of the units power level on their own, because if you try to make that happen, then you are balancing units in vacuum against each other, with all that entails of broken balance.

It might take more work, but wouldn't the game be better for it, especially now with bespoke unit rules and stats, a unit with so much value should be representative of it, no matter what, rather than an army as a whole having balances here and there to match it up to other armies, that creates blind spots in the balance of armies. Me and a friend where testing out some units and we tried one of his special necron lords (can't remember which one)against an equal power level of my lords. And he slaughtered them despite the forces being match pointwise/power level wise. That's probably a bad example, but it gets my point across.

So play chess buddy. The only way to balance sides by making units cost the same is to make them identical, and even horus heresy players would find that boring.

Necrons give up a lot of the best stuff in tbe game, and in return their stuff costs less. To make them cost the same either SMs need to give up lascannons, melta and plasma for sticking racks of bolters on shit or Necrons need to get plasma, melta and lascannons on everything.

>give up
Like what?

Perfect example in thread. A landraider that could cost the same as an Ark would have 10 bolters and nothing else as armament, be only able to take tactical marines, and they could not take any equipment or upgrades. 10 basic tacs in a giant box for half the price of a real land raider, it is now balanced.

The Land Raider is certainly overpriced but there are some points like how the Ghosts Arks weapons can't do anything against vehicles or that the Land Raider weapons are pretty good and 2+ save is pretty resilient.

How are you missing that other user's point so hard? GAs cost less than LRs because GW values the rest of the Space Marine's options as more powerful than Necron's.

You might as well ask why Ork Boyz are so cheap when they've got such good melee stats

Where did I say units should cost the same? Cunt learn how to read. How on earth are necrons giving things up that they didn't have (or fucking need). They have plenty of shit that is the equivalent or better than marines, and stuff that marines don't have, like all armies. The problem lies with their bollocks rule ignoring shit that they get for free on all or most of their units, that are already deadly without them. And to top it off, people say they are over costed.

I haven't missed any points, in fact I accepted them, then brought up a new argument.
Here

>gauss
>tesla
>fly

>milk
>donkey
>tower
Hey, I can greentext random words too!

lol you are so fucking mad
enjoy your FAQ

Same problem all space marine players have, they have never played anything else and everyone has played space marines.

Necrons have always lacked decent long range shooting, trabsports for elite units, and specialized weaponry. They get a choice of gauss or tesla, which is good at killing either space marines or light troops and fails at everything else. There is no Necron Devestator equivalent, or knight, or any good artillery options.

In return for shitty midrange shooting and poor melee options, Necrons are cheap and hard to kill.

In neither 7E nor 8E are Necrons a real contender in tournaments, as their abilities never make up for their weaknesses (except in 6E).

You're not making any sense.

GA only has the most basic gauss gun. There is no tesla option. Its WBB buff only affects warriors too :(

This should be obvious, as even within different marine chapters there are point discrepencies. Some chapters get cheaper terminators, some get cheaper bikes, etc... And even when the units are the exact same, the points differ because it's armies balancing against each other. In those armies you'll find things like lack of dedicated transports, higher cost vehicles, lack of psykers, etc... Point values are only there to balance armies - otherwise GW would just use a system similar to the one WoK uses.

Been messing around with trying to stuff a bunch of things into a Tzeentch daemons/thousand sons list. Won't be competitive but oh well. I saw that for horrors you can have any combination of pink/blue/brimstone horrors. Would it be ok if i fielded 3 of brimstone horror units for a total of 60 points to cover the battalion detachment requirements?

>Necrons stuff seems to be pretty severely undercosted to me
HA HA HA. Good one user.

Or bring 2x as many assault marines + supporting characters in your metal box and have them charge as soon as they get out without needing a 9+

>There is no Necron Devestator equivalent

*cough* Heavy destroyers

Shorter range and more expensive without the ability to take transports. Almost like you juat proved my point.

10" move, 3W, T5, reanimation, Reroll 1 to hit

>Four S:9 D6 D guns hitting on 3+
>Can transport anything it damn well pleases
>+2 save

Stop your bitching

>It might take more work, but wouldn't the game be better for it,

No you fucking retard, it'd make the game worse.

You can set the points either for army against army, OR you can set them for unit vs unit. The change in context means changing performance, and with that the points costs will change depending on which model you choose. Or tpo spell it out for the temrinally retarded, you CANNOT set the points cost for both at once.

So you get to choose. Balance the armies, or balance the units? This should be an easy one, you play army against army, not unit against unit. But since a unit you didn't even know the fucking rules for ("Know your enemy" ring a bell?) didn't die as you hoped in your apparently not so clever after all trap, you simply will not accept this.

>Me and a friend where testing out some units and we tried one of his special necron lords (can't remember which one)against an equal power level of my lords.

Well that's certainly illuminating. I mean it isn't like we haven't covered this "it isn't supposed to be unit vs unit" bit already in this thread. Over and over again.

Oh wait, we have!

>That's probably a bad example, but it gets my point across.

Don't you worry. You got the point across in your first fucking post. It's just a really stupid point.

>2+ vs 4+

Land Raiders would save 5/6 (or 10/12) of all unmodified saves and can make saves up to -4 save mod (-5 obviously negates their save entirely).

Ghost Arks would save 1/2 or (6/12) of all unmodified saves and are completely negated by a -3 save mod.

So against the same successful attack a Ghost Ark would lose almost twice as many wounds as a Land Raider; but a Ghost Ark can also re-roll to negate some of those wounds (up to all 14 it has, assuming its Quantum Shielding rule doesn't get patched to fail on a 6). However, lots of D1 attacks will kill it dead without QS ever coming into play (because you can't roll less than 1 on a D6). It's hard to calculate those odds at best; so we ignore them for the time being.

Ghost Arks have weapons, but they've got fewer with shorter range, lower power and less damage than a Land Raider, by significant margins in every case. On a DPT basis, a Land Raider should definitely cost more points than a Ghost Ark, and that's before we get into Power of the Machine Spirit's advantage.

Don't forget 8 toughness compared to 6 I think the GA is.

>Taking Obliterators ever
>When Las-preds and Havocs exist for fucking cheaper
>Even a Forgefiend is more threatening and stronger in CC

Why did they fuck Oblits so hard? even a pts drop won't fix the flavorless shitty lame guns they gave them and lack of power-fists

Will Iron warrior legion tactics fix them somehow? i guess that's the only hope

>and I (not knowing what QS did at that point) put 8 lascannons and 6 meltas and 24 bolters into it

You should have known what qs does after the first shot of whatever since your opponent has to resolve it in front of you. The problem seems to not be with the power of qs but with the stupidity of the player.

You think that's dumb. Power Points are way worse. You can take Abaddon for the cost of 10 Plague Marines and he's built like a fucking light tank and hits like a vindicator.

Pretty sure that's doable

Because everybody has them, because in 7e they were the only good chaos heavy support choice other than Fiend-friends.

Post the rest

What other examples of this are there? and either way that's really lame

did they buff Gorkanauts just to try and sell the fuckers?

Don't got 'em

This is exactly how 7th edition was ruined, balance based around armies rather than the units that make up the armies allows for power creep and shit cause every new release is trying to be "Balanced" around what was previously released. Instead, the units should represent the value they bring to the table over EVERYTHING else, that promotes balanced gameplay. You have repeatedly failed to fucking make a single argument that makes sense, try again cunt.

It's like you're arguing against yourself here by highlighting the point that you can't look at shit like this in a vacuum when there's literally thousands of potential unit interactions and situations to consider when determining relative worth/utility of an individual unit

Describe the fucking utility of a LR. Its a tanky method of transporting your heavy infantry with some heavy weapons glued to the side. Now lets look at LRs in 8th, The firepower side of it is completely void as I stated earlier cause every motherfucker and his gran can take lascannons and with the new guaranteed deep strikes, you have a free way of getting your termies where they need to be when you need them there. So the transportation part is now void, unless for some god forsaken reason you want to transport power armour units, why spend an additional 285 points on that over a rhino. The only thing they have left is tankyness to hold objectives and/or board presence, but you can accomplish both those things with a multitude of other units that are almost always going to be cheaper.

First of all if you expected balance you definitely bought into the wrong game.
GW isn't always doing a stellar job, but that aside they have a game with ~20 factions and special rules for almost every single unit.
They also used to have formations with special rules which were flat out impossible to balance at all.
And they used to have a 4 year cycle of updating stuff, if at all.
Orks and Dark Eldar have gone entirely ignored for decades at a time for example.

Then you also take two units from different army lists and compare them in a vacuum.
Points costs should definitely take the stats of the unit into account, but also the emergent synergies that you get if you are using it with other things in the army.
If you make points cost dependent only on the stats of the unit you are implicitly assuming symmetric gameplay, like you have with chess for example. None of the GW games are like that though. Even chess isn't truly 'balanced' since white has the first move.

They can never be balanced due to the nature of the game itself.

The game is about asymmetrical forces. Some armies get cheap and effective close combat. Others don't have access to it, and their close combat units are shit. Others have access to cheap and powerful vehicles. Others have great infantry. You can't directly compare one unit from one army with one unit from another army because you can't swap like that. The utility provided by rarity is important but you're too dumb to understand. You're upset and want every single army to have identical value choices in all aspects of combat. That's not the point of the game and you're dumb for suggesting it.

Khorne Berserkers go great with sturdy metal boxes like the Land Raider.

It's a battle taxi that is hard to kill and has some decent guns on the side. Yes, you can deep strike your terminators but unless you're grey knights or have some access to more teleporting tricks, your terminators are walking 5" every turn after the initial deep strike. A land raider helps them get to other places after the initial deep strike. While we're on the subject of deep striking, remember that in matched play you can only have half your army come in as reinforcements. Having a land raider allows you to put a squad on the table and have other squads in deepstrike. This is obviously less of a concern if you're not playing matched play or only have like 2 units of terminators. But it does highlight the possibility of land raiders carrying non deep striking units into combat to support your deep striking units.

I'm sure there are other situations where having a metal box that is hard to remove can be handy, but ultimately you have to ask yourself if you have a spot for a land raider in your plans. From the sounds of it, you don't and that is okay. Others might and that's okay too

Where did I say I wanted armies to be identical, where did I say I wanted units to be identical points wise. Why do cunts keep putting fucking words in my mouth and not fucking reading what im saying. Then calling me fucking dumb afterwards. Learn how to fucking read, read through what i put here again and then reply to me. Also do you fucking know what representative means, it certainly doesn't mean conform to every other fucking unit of the same type in the game does it.

good points. In the end its a choice.

You need to sit down for an hour and come back and read what you wrote. You're completely lost in space. Either you legitimately have a learning disability or you are trolling. At this point it's not possible to differentiate.

Generally speaking all the shitty units got better and all the prime suspects of OPness got hit by the nerf bat to some degrees. Off the top of my head units that got hit with the nerf bat are: Magnus, Dreadknight, Wraithknight, Riptide and Oblits.

Lascannon Pred is 200 points, a razorback with a twin hvbolter is 80, multimelta immolator is 95. LR is all of them in one unit. I think its overpriced but I wouldn't use a fucking ghost arc as an example since people will use the "im allowed to have op units because different internal faction balance" crap. Stormraven is better in every way to a LR use that to complain about it.