So here's the thing: I like the idea of a fantastic realm running up against a modern/near future one...

So here's the thing: I like the idea of a fantastic realm running up against a modern/near future one, being in conflict and/or working together.

Problem is, most fantasy fundamentally doesn't measure up to modern tech. The flaming sword won't dent a tank, and unless a dragon is also a God a few missiles would ruin its day. Fireballs and grenades are not equivalents. The few attempts at crossover between these two things never fits right.

So then the solution as I see it is to scale up the fantasy, both in utility and raw power without necessarily just modernizing it. But what would such a fantasy realm look like? Are there any examples?

exalted

>unless a dragon is also a God a few missiles would ruin its day
Protection from Normal Missiles is a first-level spell.

Unless the missiles are enchanted, they won't hit it.

There's a really shitty film called Reign of Fire that deals with dragons attacking the modern age. Might be a starting point.

The Wutai war of FF7 (I'm really reaching here) deals with a far removed and traditional village fighting Shinra, a megacorporation.

All in all, just scale up the magic appropriately.

Just make it actually true to myths a bit more. Roland split mountains with his sword, and blew out his own temples by blowing his horn too hard.

It would look like RIFTS.

Eh, I'd count missiles as ballistae or hurled rocks level of missiles, user.

Wall of Force works much better.

Fantasy has strength in numbers, by orders of magnitude.

Fantasy setting has more dragons than the real world has missiles.

Sounds like a shitty setting.

I think it's kind of retarded how people always imagine these settings with technology and magic opposing each other. Even something like Shadowrun grabs for excuses to make magic and technology almost mutually exclusive.

But why? A sword is technology. If you can enchant a sword, you can enchant a gun. And why wouldn't you? Can you imagine your regular machine gun with a cooling enchant on the barrel? Or modern fighter jets enchanted with magical flight instead of needing wings for lift?

The only setting I ever ran with this theme did it like this. And I had a lot of fun coming up with all sorts of shit. The popular mode of transport were flying ships. I introduced a fighter pilot character by pitting his fighter against a dragon (kind of to drive the point home, too). The demon who stole one character's sister was a suave bastard in a business suit. Ancient battlefields had roaming skeletal soldiers with rusted out rifles that somehow still fired, and they did an honour salute for the character they killed. There was a rare "race" of ancient metal soldiers from the proper Fantasy times who were conjured up to right some threat, and then forgotten. Some people were immune to magic, so they took no damage, but no healing and buffs either. The bad guys were crazy conservative Elven North Korea.

Like I said, I had a lot of fun with it. Shit, this just makes me want to revive it all over again.

Exalted is neat, but also really weird and specific.

There's really little reference to things like that in gaming or otherwise. Good point though.

>RIFTS
You have uncovered ancient traumas within me.

Which of course leads to asymmetrical warfare. Also interesting but not quite what I'm going for.

It's the whole "portal to a fantasy realm" archetype. Fusion is assumed at some point down the line, but what I was reaching for is fantasy elements pushed to the same extremes and pressures to what our technology has been brought to. An arms race between sword, sorcery and monster gone to its furthest extremes.

Look nigger, it's magic. You can literally do anything you want.

To properly compare them, you'd have to stat them out. Without that, there's no frame of reference.

For fighting, magic isn't going to directly outdamage things unless you want it to, and if you want it to, it'll outpace swords and shit more than it already might, depending on your setting. I mean, there are missiles, tanks and jets, but Wall and Cloud spells can fuck those up pretty badly. Cloudkill kills the tank operators. Tank stopped. Wall of Force blocks the missile. Teleport moves the target of the missile. Demiplane scry and fry destroys the entire modern army with no way of being stopped. How high do you want your magic?

>Problem is, most fantasy fundamentally doesn't measure up to modern tech. The flaming sword won't dent a tank, and unless a dragon is also a God a few missiles would ruin its day. Fireballs and grenades are not equivalents. The few attempts at crossover between these two things never fits right.
I don't know what settings or games you have been playing, but magic that can stop time, erase entire cities in an instant, or even kill gods is nothing to sneeze at. I have no idea where this idea of magic commonly being presented as weak compared to modern technology comes from.

>The flaming sword won't dent a tank,
Why not? The parameters of what magic can and cannot do are entirely up to you. You can make a magic flaming sword cut a tank in half. You can make mithril plate armor be immune to artillery blasts.

It's fucking magic.

A fair point, but it's actually another problem. Anything it does better it does unilaterally and without contest. More asymmetrical conflict, tech and fantasy can't be in conflict as near equals on any specific front.

Sure, but being able to take out a tank would have nothing to do with the sword being on fire. It would just be window dressing to the inexplicable "megadamage" going on.

What you want is TORG

>magic vs tech
>conflict where any side absolutely refuses to use anything from the other side

This is literally the worst way to do this kind of shit
It's not even "realistic" or whatever equivalent buzzword you want to hide behind. I can fucking guarantee that within the week of contact there would be troops sending poisonous magical critters at enemy and wizards with guns. Within the year the conflict will turn into magitech vs techmagic. Within ten years you will find it impossible to distinguish which society was originally magical and which was technological.

That is, unless you make magic side literally retarded and then start wanking all over "muhgunz" like people here usually do.

You'd probably end up in a much more asymmetrical war than actual ground combat.

Look at the modern day; Naval warfare is essentially nonexistent because the USA has a more ships than everybody else combined. Air and armored combat don't happen very much because it's way cheaper and more effective to launch missiles and fly drones. Infantry engagements exist, but are few and far between. The battles of today are fought with economics, information, and propaganda.

So what does magic add to that? Well, magic swords aren't gonna do shit, you're right. Magic armor MIGHT, if it can stop bullets. But then, can it stop a tank or a missile? And even if it can, a modern nation will just start using tear gas and the like. I don't think the Geneva convention is going to apply against Magictopia.

So brute Force isn't the answer, probably. What you're looking at is infiltration and subterfuge. Teleportation, illusions, invisibility, mind altering effects. Circumvent ground combat entirely, and start targeting their command structure. The modern world would be completely unprepared for that kind of strategy. Just look at the "war on terror" and how disruptive it can be when your enemy can blend in with the populace, and now consider that this enemy can look like anyone or anyTHING, impersonate anyone, teleport anywhere, disappear, or control someone's mind, and everything falls to chaos.

Agreed, I hate the idea that somehow magic and technology are always in opposition to each other instead of, what I imagine to be more natural, people trying to find ways to combine to the two for greater affect.

I suppose it's just a matter of taste that can't simply be undone though

So that's how I see the majority of the rank and file engagements, but consider the magic "heavy weapons" too. A magical WMD would be more terrifying than a nuke.

That said, if you'reintent on soldier vs soldier fighting, consider shifting from "modern day" to "yesterday". WW1 and 2, magic swords and crossbows would have an easier time and not yet be fully hilariously outclassed. Alternatively, lower the scale. Have the modern day side be a third world or middle eastern type country that doesn't have the oppressive might of American (and friends) air, sea, and armored superiority.

For a third alternative, remove some of their advantages by causing a massive electro-magic disruption that works like a global long term EMP.

OP here, that's actually a process I'd like to see play out. Maybe a little more slowly and awkward, where each is set in their ways and have trouble adapting and learning and for a while some even seeing the need to do so. That's part of the idea of making them equivalent, that giving a wizard a gun isn't necessarily an upgrade.

Magitech is of course fun down the line, but it should be a messy process with lots of jumps and screwups.

...Ech, guess I'm more describing a movie I'd like to see than a game. Putting mechanics to mad magiscience might work somehow though.

Not bad ideas, my only problem is that completely asymmetrical warfare leads to all victories being tactical and maybe eventually political, and force of arms counts for slim to none on either side. It's a fine beast, but a different one.

I've seen the first approach before, and yeah it kinda works. You can pull out straight d&d fare and send it up against nazis with some trouble or napoleon for easy mode. The reverse process is less tread ground, thus my wanting to explore it.

Magic or tech shutting the other down is a bit of a cop out though.

Anima.
Magic vs ubertech vs ubermensch vs psy

You definitely need some sort of cop out to level the playing field unless you want every soldier from magicville to be a high level wizard. There's just no way that primitive tech can go toe to toe with a modern military unless you alter it to the point of no longer being recognizable as medieval tech.

I understand your frustration, but ultimately you're the one who decides exactly how Magic magic is, and you have a few options.

1) Everything from Magic world is just tougher. The 16s and 18s fighters rolled might be average for a fighter, but Herculeneon for modern land.

2) Magic is powerful. The magic sword isn't just a +1 to damage, but effectiveness against armor, density, sharpness, etc. A level 10 with a bunch of +5 equipment would ruin soldiers because the shit he's wearing IS FUCKING MAGIC and can absorb a few tank shells.

3) Make the magic side use more subtle magics. Invisibility, charms, weather control, illusion. Make the tech side use their smarts and not just their guns, and make the magic side have to outwit the obviously more devastating military. It may be easier to pick up a gun than to learn Fireball, but once you've mastered Mind Fuck From 1km Away you can avoid the gun.

4) Magic is supernaturally better and resistant to nonmagic. It is magic and you don't have to explain shit. Dragons fuck the countryside not because the cities can't front enough men, but because they're resistant to anything under a certain magical level. Write the magical world to accommodate the magical things being fuckall powerful.

There was an anime specifically about this recently. And whatever you think of that show or anime, it was DnD vs modern tech, and automatic weapons and ballistic missiles kind of always won against armored dudes and dragons, because it would. Make your setting more magical or fantastical than DnD.

And then most of the theory-crafting is about combat, too. Boring.

If you are a Wizard with glamour and charm effects, and you come into contact with the modern world, why would you ever even bother with sending an underpowered army of Orcs at anyone? Unless you're just doing it so you can profit politically, and usurp power while no-one is watching.

And how many people can you straight up bribe with magical shit? Because most settings are pretty clear that even mundane magic straight up kicks the ass of any disease we might have. These people are going about it all wrong.