So why did none of the other Chaos gods really do anything with the Eldar gods before Slaanesh came along?

Saying they aren't sapient goes way too far, they all plot and plan ahead, albeit Khorne's plots typically aren't very complex. They make decisions based on what they've learned, and they have learned. You're correct in that they're all slaves to their nature, though.

Time isn't strictly linear inside the Warp, but time inside the material universe is linear, so the rate at which emotions feed into the warp is linear. The notion that Slaanesh always existed and thus was able to birth itself kind of doesn't make sense.

Yeah, it's dumb. The necrontyr should've spawned Nurgle and maybe Khorne after the Old Ones fucked up and weakened the barrier between the Materium and the Warp.

But why slaneesh also effects human if it was created by Eldar?
Why there are shrines to the Caos Gods even in xeno worlds?
Why other Chaos gods such as Gork and Mork or Khaine don't affect humans?

Because they have psychic resonance as well? I don't know why you'd take away the idea that Chaos is a human-only event.

>Saying they aren't sapient goes way too far, they all plot and plan ahead,
I don't think they do. If they can be said to exist at all, then they're just elaborate machines which spit out responses based on the psychic input of the galaxy. Any sapience that seems to be observed is a byproduct of the anthropomorphization. I don't think they even really exist at all, except as figments of the galactic imagination - of course that actually means something because psychic energy has power in 40k, but let's see, how to put this...

The Immaterium is a pond surface and all the psychic, emotional energy of sapient beings is like rain to that pond. Each raindrop contacts the pond's surface, disrupting it and sending ripples out where it touched - the Chaos 'gods' are nexûs of those ripplings. Enough energy may produce something that /resembles/ independent action - a whirlpool or wave, in this example - but it's really just a culmination of the downpour of so many droplets.

>Gork and Mork or Khaine
These are not Chaos gods the big 5 are the only ones. Gork and Mork are manifestations of the Ork WAAAGH, and Khaine is a direct eldar god who seem to be pure eldar in their creation.

The ruinous powers are consistently described as plotting, scheming, thinking beings in codexes, books, and video games. That "I believe" shit is just your head-canon, broski.

Khaine & Khorne regularly dated.

> Nurgle only arises because of the Black Death on Earth where the Emperor was
> Tzeentch only arises because of medieval politicking on Earth where the Emperor was
> Khorne only arises because of the Crusades on Earth where the Emperor was

> Slaanesh starts arising right around the time humanity and the Eldar come into contact with one another, when the Emperor was bouncing around the galaxy like a goddamn pinball during the Dark Age of Technology

DURR I WONDER WHY

Because they didn't had the critical mass, i suppose. The birth of Slaanesh surely also fueled the other 3 freaks as well in the process. The gestation of Slaanesh fucked up the warp, created a direct and permanent warp rift in the material realm. The other 3 surely benefited from that. Before Slaanesh the warp meddling in the material universe were much, much smaller.

They are sapient, fully conscious and with minds waay above genius level intellect. The thing is that they are monomaniacs. They can't go, think and act outside their natures due it being well, their very natures and constitution as beings. That's why the are less gods and more "monomaniacal alien consciousness"

>Why other Chaos gods such as Gork and Mork or Khaine don't affect humans?
>Gork and Mork
>Chaos gods
>don't affect humans

1) Gork and Mork aren't 'Chaos Gods'. They are, however, the first 'God entities' to naturally form in the Warp (the Eldar pantheon was artificially created by the Old Ones). They may be some of the oldest 'Warp Gods', but they're certainly not 'Chaos Gods'.
2) Considering a bunch of Space Marine Librarians went full Ork when they tried to locate the Beast on Ullanor in the Beast Arises series because of the WAAAGH! field, I'd say that Gork and Mork can affect humans under certain conditions.

it would be extremely interesting to have a plot about how Isha and Nurgle percieve each other. Isha could have developed some sort of stockholm syndrome maybe. Nurgle, altough being a nightmarish chaos god, is known for being quite loving in his own disturbed way. I think this could play out interestingly.

Khaine was shattered into a bazillion pieces remember? The eldar must perform a specific ritual to summon just one those fragments. Khaine can't influence even the eldar directly, without the summoning of an avatar, even less humans.

Demons similar to the ones of the big 3 already existed before the eldar were made,so the Old Ones made the eldar(and their gods) immune to them.

Before the humans became psychic the warp was a calm place that the elder used to create whatever they wanted and live forever in.
The elder made warp gods when they needed them for whatever they needed. The elder just all unified their will and manifested whatever suited their needs.

Eventually the mohn-keys screwed everything up with their primitive emotional spasms feeding the big three. they say the eldar got lazy and created slaanesh but I'm not totally convinced that isn't mohn-key propaganda.

don't remind me of Gramaticus user ;-;

I don't. It's typical wish fulfillment where if the fat, unwashed neet persists enough, the girl that's out of his league will love him. Not just cringey but contradictory, considering Isha actively helps Nurgle's intended victims from captivity.

I wouldnt fuck with gork n mork either desu

The thing you have to realize that at that time the Eldar were the sole super power in the galaxy, in a way not really seen since. There power was essentially limitless. No war means no Khorne no diesease/real death means a weakened Nurgle, and the design of the warp ways worked as stint against Tzeenchian influence as well.

>No war means no Khorne
I'm pretty sure the Krork/Orks would like a word with you about that. The Eldar might have been powerful at their zenith, but a rule of thumb in 40k is essentially: "there's always more greenskins."

Hell, since Khorne was the first Chaos God to achieve sentient status, I'd wager the Blood God's awakening was caused in large part due to the constant warring of Krorks/Orks with... well everything, for several million years until he 'woke up'.

The orks don't fuel khorne, them fighting fuels gork and mork, khorne was most created from human wars.

>Countless xenos empires throughout the galaxy
>many of them had psykers
>untold trillions of eldar committing heinous acts of excess over thousands of years needed to awaken slaanesh
>the emotions of one primitive race on some backwater planet fueled the creation of the 3 most powerful warp beings in existence

This is absolutely retarded, I hope they come up with better explanation for them in 8h

>Considering a bunch of Space Marine Librarians went full Ork when they tried to locate the Beast on Ullanor in the Beast Arises series because of the WAAAGH! field, I'd say that Gork and Mork can affect humans under certain conditions.
Holy shit, gimme citation, I want to see it

I want to know too, were the Librarians driven mad by the WAAAGH! Field or did it cause them to defect?

Are there any canon Eldar that actually serve Chaos? I know Oathbreakers aren't a real thing, but the idea of Eldar selling their souls to one of the other three to escape Slaanesh has always appealed to me.

> sell soul...
> to escape losing soul
This makes sounds as good as that looks.
Ie like complete shit

No its not
Humans are one of the strongest psyker race in universe after eldar. But eldar would balance their powers, while humans would go sperging constantly, so...

Oathbreakers were incredibly wanky and speculative. The only reason they made any sense at all is because serving Nurgle can also be indirectly serving Isha, one of their own gods. Plus the fact that Nurgle kicked Slaanesh's ass and all of his rotting corpse imagery brainwashed a bunch of the sad fucks into thinking he was Ynnead all along.

Either way, Drawbba's art is awful and you should feel bad for posting it.

Chaos Eldar used to be one of those mentioned-in-a-tiny-bit-of-fluff things way back in some old edition or another, but they weren't like cultists or anything, more like powerful, fucked-up, potentially sexy chaos spawn. I don't know if they could possibly be a thing nowadays, but they at least probably wouldn't be like cultists or CSM and so on.

Closest thing you can get would be actual Daemonettes, who may as well be Eldar souls chewed up and jizzed out by Slaanesh in a mockery of their former species.

In Warhammer 40k sentient beings have always been responsible for their respective gods, and even in Fantasy Gayge of Shitmar get out the world's gods rely heavily on having worshipers to keep them sustained. Tzeentch for example fears that the Horned Rat may one day become more powerful than any other god because of how many Skaven there are and how rapidly they keep coming, because such an immense amount of worshipers would overshadow all other gods.

In 40k the Chaos Gods didn't really come to power until around the Horus Heresy. Most of that time was spent fighting other Warp entities of similar natures for power. Khorne, in this example, was truly born from a mix of Mongol conquests and general war on Earth, but other wars came and created similar beings, and Khorne had to fight them for dominance so that by at most the year 30,000 he was the unmatched Blood God.

The Eldar gods were on par with the Chaos gods in terms of power until Slaanesh was born by their own corruption. The deaths of so many Eldar simultaneously when he was born led to a massive defecit in worshipers, and all the Eldar gods were severely weakened and rendered helpless against him save for Khaine and Cegorach, the former just barely managing to hold his own through sheer anger at Slaanesh in a fight with him before Khorne showed up to fuck both of them over, and the latter either too clever or himself too powerful, or at least powerful enough, that he escaped Slaanesh and spent the rest of history from that point until now running around his Warp domain killing his daemons and literally playing pranks on and laughing at him, and Slaanesh could do nothing about it.

Croneworld Eldar have always been a thing though it has never been developed beyond 'Eldar that live in the Eye of Terror and worship Chaos'

Stop headcanoning. There isn't a single line in your post that is supported by any piece of fluff.

The Eldar Gods were not at any point equal to the Chaos Gods.

>the first 'God entities' to naturally form in the Warp

False. Be'lakor predates Gork and Mork by millions of years. A thousand space civilisations worshipped him as god.

And the Liber Chaotica states that the Eldar Gods were the first gods of the Warp which is not canon now considering that the Chaos Gods always existed in their powerful state.

Anyways, a shard of Khaine affected the Orks of Octarius and nearly merged with them.

>The notion that Slaanesh always existed and thus was able to birth itself kind of doesn't make sense.

You are a moron. Refer to Drach'nyen's birth and Be'lakor's million year rampage across the galaxy.

And quit moaning about the Old Ones. Even back in their time, daemon invasions was a thing.

Isn't using the Black Library books about as good as using fanfiction to establish Warhammer canon? Heck, isn't using the actual codices as good as using fanfiction? I thought the rule was that everything you read is from the eyes of an unreliable narrator.

Robin Cruddace wrote nothing but losing battles for the Tyranids in their 5th edition codex, for example, because "You wouldn't hear about battles that went well for them because there'd be no survivors". So even using a codex to gauge the history, power, and activities of the race would be pointless because it's all from the wank of "this is the worst faction stop playing it".

No.

You Iz dumb. Go away.

soon

I remember reading somewhere that the other 3 Chaos Gods actively helped Cegorach, Isha and Khaine escape Slaanesh's massacre. According to it, Khorne got pissed off when Slaanesh tried to munch on Khaine and intervened and slapped Slaanesh's shit around but not before Slaanesh and Khorne's child-like "NO IT'S MINE" tug-of-war caused Khaine to shatter.

Different user, but I think there's some good room for potential. Just don't do spergy rape fantasies.

Maybe Isha hasn't been rescued because whenever someone gets close, she explains that she can help more by undermining Nurgle while staying by his side. Or she's been smuggling her tears out and with them more and more of her 'soul,' but she has to slow that down because now her presence is too weak and if she actually leaves Nurgle will lose the inadvertent fetter that she's become.

Because yeah, that neet fantasy blows, but there's room for an interesting story in there.

They didnt help, they just wanted them for themselves. Khorne wanted to fuck Khaine himself instead of letting trannygod rape him and Nurgle just wanted Isha because she's a never-ending source of decay or just out of a sick twisted version of compassion.

Cegorach survived simply because the god of arts, laughter and fun had more faith put in him than the rest of the pantheon, the tale of Slaanesh is both an allegory to the Eldar's decadence and lack of faith in their gods destroying them AND a real account of how it happened.

Fuck off you degenerate Carneyfag.

I think this is the fourth or fifth Chaos-related discussion thread Carnac's shat up.

for those who don't know, Carnac is a resident shitposter who may have an unhealthy love for Chaos and calls everything in fluff that isn't favorable to Chaos 'fanfiction' while calling fluff favorable to Chaos the only 'true' canon, while also spouting his own fanfiction that's usually something about Belakor

>fanfiction

Sorry, he calls it 'headcanon', but the sentiment's the same.

Didn't Khorne arise because of Genghis Khan's rampage?

Either Genghis Khan or Atilla. Usually Veeky Forums follows the fluff of the Mongols though I do think at some point way way back a 40k publication mentioned the Hun invasions as part of Khorne's birth. His actual creation into existence, albeit in a near-lifeless state, was from Mesoamerican blood sacrifices as well.

Headcanon:
Cause humanity won.
When big 3 formed by humanity they where minor demons at most, that fed at emotions of humans, and there was not much competition at time.
Powerful Eldar gods kept to Eldar, gods of Old Ones and Necrons were long dead, Gork and Mork had their orks as ever, minor xeno races were minor xeno races and demons that fed on them were probably comparative in power.

But them humanity went into crazy tech progress and reached the stars, multiplying beyond belief. And with more "worshipers" 3 human gods grown on emotion fuel like crazy.
So by the time of The Fall 3 human gods were most powerful entities in warp after Eldar ones, or similar in power.

When Eldar fallen, most of them died so power base of other Eldar gods were weakened greatly so human 3 could take their place. That is why Khrone got Khaine, he could not do it while Khaine was fueled by entire Eldar Empire.
As for Slannessh, maybe we never engaged in mass scale deviant shit so as there was no human god, and he received massive power boost from dead eldar so he become only one in this field.
And big 4 stomps any upstarted demon that could become god in their own right.

You make a good point so let me clarify. Isha being Nurgle's captive and her attempts to influence the conflicts in realspace make for an interesting premise. Hopefully, if it's ever explored further in canon, it won't be some weirdo with a rape fantasy writing it.

The eldar had a nice thing going and the webway kept them mostly safe from warp fuckery

Then the birth of slannesh itself killed most eldar, and the gods became weak easy prey for slannesh as they had far less eldar to empower them and the rest of the warp went to shit

I was think of making Tzeentch the Old Ones fault rather that Khorne due to there mastery of the then gentle Immaterium. Admittedly this is me injecting some Chozo in to them.

Oh look no sources or anything just adhoms vs actual sources and points.

>“Straining, raging, thrashing,’ Vaniel rasped. His voice was becoming more guttural, his demeanour darkened. He bared his teeth, heavy gasps punctuating his snarled words. ‘The great green powers us. The great green becomes us. We are the great green.’
The grunts and groans were not limited to the “Ultramarines Chief Librarian. The other psykers channelled the primal spirit of the orks, their faces masks of bestial hate, hands forming claws or fists. Redolphio was banging the heels of his hands against his chest, each impact sending a jolt of energy through the others. Thane noticed that the Blood Angel’s incisors seemed long, fang-like.
>“the Beast arises!’ Vaniel hunched, arms hanging like an ape’s limbs, lips drawn back to reveal teeth and gums darkened by psychic power. He threw back his head and lifted his hands high, a wordless howl bursting forth. ‘Waaaaagh!’
Several of the others raised their voices in unison, creating a primordial shout that shook the hall physically and psychically.”

From "the beast must die"

Cant w8 for that.
I want Chaos Eldar in my life. It would be cool if Isha would give in to Nurgle for chance to save some of them and had them under her/his comand.

Eldar created one chaos god while being in the trillions. Humans somehow created 3 while under one billion. By events that touched less than 30% of that...

>Eldar created one chaos god while being in the trillions. Humans somehow created 3 while under one billion. By events that touched less than 30% of that...

maybe eldar leak 0.0001% of their "emotion" into the warp and humans leak closer to 95%.

Nurgle tortures her by inflicting every new disease on her and seeing how hard it is for her to heal herself, and she fights him and undoes his works as much as she can. There is no love relationship. Fuck off back to your adult diaper den.

Nurgle was fapping to isha

tzeentch was watching lost in space

Khrone was still healing from his back caused by the DoomGuy

>humans created the first of the big three during the Middle Ages/renaissance
Why are people still clinging to this outdated lore, it's basically shaman emperor levels of no longer canon

Because 99.99% of Warhammer lore made after 2008 is complete goatshit.

I think the opposite is true. All Eldar are psykers, and therefore warp-attuned.

Which makes sense to me. Terra keeps ticking despite birthing three Chaos Gods, the Eldar make one god and blow a giant hole in realspace that lasts 13k years

Where is this from? Never read that before.

Unless he sold himself to Tzeentch.

Khorne Eldar would be da shit !
After all Khorne embodies both rage, justice and honor in a sort of fucked up way.

There has to be a sect of eldar whom got so enraged and demented at the injustice of there dying race that would sale there souls for a chance at sweet revenge.

Think of it differently. Human events spawned three very minor demons. As humanity grew, so did they. They were nicely generic and had broad portfolios and so could absorb or merge with other similar daemons that formed around other races; so in the Age of the Imperium, other chaos "gods" of other races are basically local franchises of one of the Big Four. Humanity managed enough psychic pollution to create them, but not enough that they would be able to do anything in realspace or challenge the more powerful Warp beings of the Eldar, Orks, and other major races.

The Eldar were violating their own natures by the end. They HAD deities, Warp entities that could safely embody most natural Eldar impulses. But their UNnatural experimentation and hedonism, combined with their psychic potential, means that they could cook up a major chaos Power in short order, have it overcome the whole psychic weight of millions of years of culture and history, and then blow a hole between realspace and the Warp. PLUS on top of that trigger an age of Warp storms and easy daemonic-realspace interaction, galaxy-wide. That's pretty damn impressive.

So it's the difference between slowly reading three crocodiles from the egg on one hand, and magicking one into full adulthood while blowing up your house, all on the weight of a night of sheer orgiastic lewdness.

The difference is that eldar at the time had the majority of their psychic presence going to their gods, humanity had all going to the big 3.

OK so canon in 40k is like Doctor Who. Subject to frequent retcons, applies except when it doesn't, often contradicts itself, and doesn't take itself too seriously. Doctor Who's excuse is time travel, while 40k's excuse is "warp is weird".

Let's just get that out of the way. There's some stuff that's very well established in canon. Lots of stuff that's mentioned once and so may or may not be canon-- fans often cherry pick some items to be Holy Writ, and others to ignore. Much of that is contradicted by other canon sources or comes from an unreliable narrator or got retconned. There's considerable extrapolating and fan-fic-writing that surrounds canon like a halo. And then there's pure-on fan conspiracy theories, like Malcador being the real prehistoric psyker lord and the "emperor" being an Age of Strife warlord, possibly created with implanted memories specifically to unite and rule humanity.

OK so this whole debate borrows liberally from all that shit. And really who cares? It could all be rewritten with a new edition or even a black library novel.

Now, my headcanon in particular?

The Warp has always had daemons. Some are local and species-specific (like local daemon lords of non-spacefaring races). Thor is pretty powerful and well-defined, but only in a very brief era and in a very small region of one planet. Some are more broad and cover a portfolio that isn't tied to particular species or cultures or eras. That breadth gives them less identity but a larger footprint.

Then you have the Ork deities and the Eldar pantheon. These were created species, designed to have an influence on the Warp and with a very specific pantheon that they cart around with them. Gork and Mork have power whereever there are orks, and they're very strong there, but that's it. The Eldar, though, are powerful psykers and have a very strong culture.

So back before the Fall, they were powerful enough to impose their pantheon on the whole Galaxy. Fortunately, 1) the eldar deities didn't care about any other races, so it didn't matter, 2) the Warp was calm and such deities couldn't affect the physical universe even if they wanted to, and 3) the Eldar themselves rarely ventured into the Warp, so they sustained these beings that kept the Warp calm, but didn't directly interact with them.

Then comes the Fall.

So now three things change. Let's put aside the Fall itself, the birth of Slaanesh, and the destruction of the Eldar and their pantheon. We've talked that one through.

So the next thing that happened was actually something that had already been happening for thousands of years. The Warp had gone from its 20th century state of placidity, with a strong barrier between worlds, to a very thin barrier holding off a very hostile tempestuous Immaterium. Ooops. On this side you have psykers and sorcerers. On the other side, warp beings from daemons of all power levels to the pantheons of various races including the Eldar could suddenly impinge on the real universe, at least in places and with help, and were more powerful.

The third thing was that the daemons of Chaos organized themselves into a "least common denominator pantheon" based around basic fears and threats to intelligent life of all kinds: treachery/intrigue, disease/pollution, war, and degeneracy/decadence/overindulgence.

Historically, when two groups of RL humans merged, their pantheons would as well. If two deities were similar enough, they'd be combined into an entity and retconned as two sets of legends and names for the same being. Sometimes, one deity would become a subordinate to another (which would sometimes get a broader portfolio as a result) this especially if the civs merged via one conquering the other. And sometimes if the culture clash was nasty enough and one wanted to prove that it had WON, then its deity defeated or consumed the other. If a deity was unique enough, it would stand on its own.

OK so let's just remember that everything from eldar "gods" to the Four Powers to Phil the Prince of Insufficient Light are all just warp daemons. They differ in intellect, goals, portfolio, and power level but ultimately they're just sapient eddies in the Warp made by realspace intelligences feeling strong emotions.

Post-Fall, the Warp daemons got much more powerful, especially in their ability to affect realspace. Meanwhile, humanity had just spent five thousand AoS years totally fragmented and rendered primitive and very desperate. Not to mention all the local alien pantheons.

So IMO the Chaos Powers are just broad groups that coalesced naturally by their own relatedness, and which attained sapience when realspace beings started to recognize those distinctions (thus making them physically real). Local deities were merged into larger Powers, or made subordinate to a Power, or consumed by them, or survived as minor unaffiliated daemons. A literal equivalent to the cultural process of myth-merging in history.

Eventually you have four Powers. Since humans are dominant at the moment, their nature emphasizes their human-relatable characteristics, including backstory and such. Slaanesh is a special case, probably because its sapience is so strongly associated with one event and it got so much power all at once. In addition, whatever else you say about them, Eldar are sexy. how much slashfic lewdness comes out of Veeky Forums about them? So it's understandable if even humans associate Eldar with slaanesh-appealing emotions, even if the Fall hadn't been powerful enough to give it an eldar provance in the first place.

But that three (or four) power taxonomy has probably always existed in some form. The Old Ones created the pantheons to keep those effects at bay, but even they couldn't stop it from ultimately happening. Those powers in other epochs of galactic history may have related to other races and appeared very different, while still being recognizeably the same beings, just re-imagined for totally different contexts. However, while the Warp was quiet, the whole problem was academic.

It's that the Warp beings are running amok AND have the ability to affect large swaths of the real world pretty easily that's the big problem now, and which gives the Powers a degree of power and solidity that they might not have had in the past.

BTW this all happened at least once before. After the War in Heaven, the warp had gone nuts as well. The remaining Old Ones were forced to depart. The necrons were forced underground to wait the whole thing out. The survivors who stayed were massacred and their civilizations pummeled, driving the whole story into myth. Only once enough realspace intelligences were dead did the psychic storm finally start the long slow process of winding down.

That process seems to be happening again. The Eldar bear the brunt of the blame, but the Emperor's attempts to fix things ended up doing far more harm than good and ended up ruining everyone.

Why do people debate and theorize over fictional fluff written to sell toy models.

Retardation. Profound retardation. If they didn't suffer from it they would have left this shit game 6 editions ago.

What else would you do with fluff, recite it like dogma?

No, his point is that he is very above it all and this is all petty and trivial, and he can't understand how people can possibly express interest in something in a way he does not. So he makes a smug comment to make sure everyone knows he disapproves, because how could we possibly go on without knowing that?

Stories have logical implications beyond what is written or fully fleshed out. It can be fun to try to extend the narrative based on what is already written.

Disagreements can come from different opinions on what is the most logical path for the narrative.