Why Female Space Marines are stupid

>Picture a powerful, prestigious, and highly regarded group of women with special powers. Everyone listens to them and thinks they're awesome and mysterious. They're in fact quite possibly the most powerful faction in their setting. And yes, they're all women.

>Now imagine if a man got to join in.

Cool, I hope the story goes into the different ways people take his inclusion and lets him have some significance through his actions and without some "surprise, men have [special quality] that makes them uniquely specialized for [task within the order's purview]" bit.

Up until Paul you couldn't be a male Bene Gesserit.

>Paul was supposed to be a girl and wed to a harkonnen air, possibly Feyd but most likely Rabban
I'm just getting flashbacks of that one fanfic where they.. affix Paul with Tleilax-made adjustments and basically carry on with he plan.

Given a female space marine probably wouldn't look much different from a male one after all those modifications (space marines are fucking creepy mutants and inhuman abominations, after all) I don't see the issue.

No one wants female space Marines. As a female player, Marines are super gay and I've never met a girl who likes them. We don't want to be part of the homosexual """brotherhood""".

Just give us some girl models here and there like they do for Eldar/Dark Eldar.

I never gave much of a shit about female space marines. I mean you could argue that it's sexist, but in the setting it's not exactly unusual that there would be some sexism going on. Space Marines are warrior elite, soldiers have, historically, been men. All male IG pisses me off though, there should be female IG cause it makes sense within the lore.

The plus side of 80% of my dudes being inside battlesuits is that nobody knows whether their face slit is an I or a Y.

well shit if they just gave paul a butt vagina they could've wed him to vladimir

Okay, a couple points

First, every male who had ever tried to awaken the powers of a reverend mother before Paul had been killed in the process, every single one. It was seen as a law of the setting, and Paul breaking it in-fact a big deal that would have fundamentally changed the setting even if he hadn't subsequently conquered the known universe.

Second, yes, from a meta perspective, adding female space marines after decades of existing universe is not quite the same thing as the shift being in the work that defines the setting to begin with. There are still arguments both ways, but OP drew an analogy to a setting that A: completely undermines his argument and B: shows he knows nothing about Dune from the fact that he thinks it supports his argument.

TLDR: Female Space Marines is still up for debate, but we are beyond that: OP knows nothing of the desert or her ways. May Shai Hulud bless his passing and grant him a swift death for his ignorance.

My main issue with female space marines is that they're based on European Monastic Traditions.

Monks were all male and Nuns were all female.
Space Marines are all Male and Sisters of Battle are all female.

Again, that's a modification of the laws of the characters and their societies because clearly there's no biological impossibility for there to be a male Bene Gesserit otherwise the male wouldn't have been born because it was biologically impossible for him to exist.

That is the comparison that is being made that people don't understand.

GW have said that females biologically are incompatible with the mutations to make space marines. Ergo for a female space marine to exist it would either break the setting, require the setting to be rewritten, or require a concession on behalf of GW to allow them to exist via Chaos shenanigans. As far as Imperials creating female space marines; they don't have the tech level required/the mutations make it impossible. That's a setting level limitation, not a character level limitation.

>the author injected the issue into the series
>unlike 40k
the fuck do you think authors do? They make shit up. That's their job. If anything, 40k is going to be less thematically consistent because its a scifantasy kitchen sink setting made over 31 years by many different authors. You can't violate a setting that was made to play pretend with metal mens representing your jedi inquisitors leading space dwarf bikers against double hell worshiping guitar knights on a planet made of rainbow hue skulls. Female space marines are fine. Calm your autism.

>There's been a lot of discussion about femarines lately
Not there hasn't, "lately".
People have been talking about it since the SJW Boogeymsn was a thing. I know that you're basically a baby and haven't bothered to pay attention to this board for very long, but one of those threads popped up now and then pretty much since people started talking about 40k on this board.
>citing female empowerment or equality or whatever else stupid shit.
That isn't right either.
Usually it's just a question of why, but 70% of the time it's just masturbatory fetish shit in disguise like nearly everything to do with women on this board.

tl;dr: You're wrong about the reasons for and frequency of pretty much everything you said and you either need to pay more attention or just not bother.

>biologically incompatible
>the great archmagos cogfucker has discovered the stc for a hyperuterine gland and forbidden techniques of implantation from the ghoul rim age of darkness
Makes about as much sense as any other shit in the setting, they're advancing the time line already. Get on with your life.

>since the SJW Boogeymsn was a thing
Excuse me, since BEFORE the SJW Boogeyman was a thing.

>ITT:

>40k is going to be less thematically consistent because its a scifantasy kitchen sink setting made over 31 years by many different authors. You can't violate a setting that was made to play pretend with metal mens representing your jedi inquisitors leading space dwarf bikers against double hell worshiping guitar knights on a planet made of rainbow hue skulls.

I'm glad there are people out there who still get 40k.

GW already have their all-female army and have made it very clear that they give zero fucks about them. Space marines are all likely to keep their dicks, unused as they are. Not counting out Cawl fuckery and female primaris marines in the future though.

If they have any feminine features at all it will make them less intimidating and masculine is the issue.
We already have the sob, they tough but they have their own style and flavour. i don't see why they aren't enough.

Space Marines have retarded selection process and they're a janky conception of what makes a good super soldier, but that's what they're about- being hueg and stronk and hit bad things hard.

Lore stuff about the geneseed needing an X chromosome etc is superfluous, because I'm extremely confident that women wouldn't ever get through the selection processes, the same way on Earth the 1st rank female competitors in athletics or combat sports are equivalent to 50-100th rank male competitors.

Of course, femarines would bother be about as much as Necrons using the Warp or Tau having non-warp based FTL, so.

And that seals the deal. To accomodate female space marines they'd need to change the rules of the setting. You prove me right with every word.

The rules of the setting are they can have whatever rules they want, and are not required to make them consistent. You actually have autism. Get help.

user look
Shit changes all the time.

Here is a thing they said once:
>the Warp is anathema to the Necrons
>they are mostly soulless constructs
Here is what happened next:
>Hey fellow Necrons, let's ride our hoverbikes in the webway

He probably thinks that there's a "BIG BOOK OF SETTING RULES" that all the writers follow.

>>the great archmagos cogfucker has discovered the stc for a hyperuterine gland and forbidden techniques of implantation from the ghoul rim age of darkness
Hey, guys, you know that one switch on the Mankind's Most Glorious Astartes Making Machine that shall always be set in the left position and never ever switched from there because that's how scripture describes the standard making process? How about we declare it non heresy to turn it to the right?

See, I always thought that the Emp never made FemMarines because he didn't want to risk having the marines start breeding.

>they're based on European Monastic Traditions
Some are, not all of them. Space Wolves (aka Space Vikings) could easily justify FSM via Shield Maidens.

So they rewrote the setting to allow Necrons to use the webway and not be 5th dimensional eldritch robots and instead be characterised by more concrete concepts we grasp easier. What is your point? That's not a change of characterisation, it's an overarching change of the setting because it means that all previous interactions of other races to Necrons have to be retconned to conform to the new canon. All future interactions between races need to conform to the new canon.

Again, a change of setting. Not a change of characters. If necrons suddenly go back to the way they were BUT all races still remember them as how they are in 6th/7th/8th as space egyptians with dynasties etc then that's a change of characterisation not setting because the setting hasn't been changed to accomodate the new characters.

Get it?

Noone ever said it can't change you fucking idiot. The point is: GW haven't changed it to allow female marines yet. Learn to read ya fucktard hick.

I'm guessing GW will be introducing femarines soon. Cawl's science fuckery is limitless and GW's already doing it with Sigmarines. It's only a matter of tme.

I'd say marines are based upon historical warrior cultures from various parts of the world, which are always masculine as fuck to the point of homo-eroticism (just like space marines)

I always thought that was a moot point because Space Marines were infertile- to prevent them from breeding- but then that got clarified in HH books to "nah we just don't do it much"

You better believe in troll threads etc

Anyway, we're probably gonna talk about how to make femarines now.

I hope we'll get male Sisters of Battle as well to compensate.

GW's very close to being fully converged so we'll probably see it unfortunately. I'll never forget McNeil sneaking it in in Storm of Iron - the female guard officer (see, they already managed it with the Imperial Guard) being absorbed into the csm power armor and, in effect, becoming a Chaos space marine. I knew exactly what that SJW snake was trying to do.

>if I type retarded shit I somehow win the argument

Stop wasting everyone's oxygen and neck yourself already.

>You better believe in troll threads etc
Good on you.

>I'm guessing GW will be introducing femarines soon
It's not impossible to see it happening though whether it's outright replacing SOB or being their tabletop replacement is a totally different question.

>Stop wasting everyone's oxygen and neck yourself already.
>I can't connect dots and draw conclusions based on easily proven logic therefore I must tell the other guy to kill himself.
>I'm assblasted at being called a hick

fuck's sake...

SOB are probably on the way out

Frankly i'd be fine seeing an ECCLESIARCHY army with (beefed up) SOB's as elite choices.

because then, Swiss Guard... Guard

I wouldn't say no but I think it's more likely SoB get integrated into the SM so that GW doesn't have to create new SoB models. They would probably get a upgrade sprue like Black Templars foe that "faith and fire" look.

user, that would require Sisters getting new models.

What's the point of going after female space marines if sisters of battle already exist?

No more creepy sex-fetish models.

>warhammer
>no creepy sex-fetish models

This problem would be solved instantly if the only all female faction in 40k was actually treated as something better than the IoM's jobbing faction.

Of course people want to have a faction in a game they can easily identify with that at the same time successful in what they do, which is certainly what Space Marines are. Perhaps if Sisters were treated less as living bags of Carroburg Crimson, and more as The Emperor's angels of mercy, hope, and divine heroism, these threads wouldn't flood the board.

They got rid of nippledaemonettes for a reason. Too bad they didn't think about the problem of
>alienating your old consumers
>failing to gain new consumers with the replacement product

and that's led them to slowly erase slaanesh completely because they don't understand that nipple daemons actually were popular because they were different, not just thematically but aesthetically as well. The new daemonettes are awful and should never have been produced.

That.
Is.
The.
Plot.
Of.
DUNE.

The Kwitsatz Haderach, the Male Bene Gesserit.

On the other hand, if there's more than one woman allowed in, it starts to fall apart yeah.

>On the other hand, if there's more than one woman allowed in, it starts to fall apart yeah.
Sort of like in the later books, when the Tleilaxu start popping out Kwisatz Haderach clones like they're candy and..... it all starts to fall apart (the sequels beyond messiah are shit but we all knew that.)

Or how about you just KYS for bring it up, again.

...

...

I used to fap to that image set all the time. Good shit.

...

>shield maidens
>a fairy tale used as a justification

>What is 40k

>Space Wolves (aka Furfags)
fixed

...

>Why don't you want me to be a Space Marine, Senpai?

There are. Last chancers models had female IG, however horrendously old and shitty those sculpts were.

There are two in-universe reasons for not having female Space Marines:

1. The process of turning into a Space Marine is essentially the process of becoming the shitty clone of one of the Primarchs. That's why Salamanders are always slow and good at forging things, or why the Night Lords like hiding and terrorizing things. Thousand Sons are usually psykers because Magnus was a psyker. The Iron Hands have an affinity for machines because Ferrus Manus had an affinity for machines. Gene seed implantation is retroactive cloning.

There was never an instance where, upon finding their missing Primarch, the Legion and the Primarch were completely different from one another. Sure, Corax told the Terran Raven Guard to fuck off because he thought they were too brutal, thereby creating the Space Sharks, but even when they were separated the Terran Raven Guard used guerrilla tactics on Terra at the same time Corax was using guerrilla tactics on Deliverance.

2. Emps was terrified of the idea of mutants ruling over humanity. That's why, at every point, he and Guilliman made Space Marines dependent on baseline humans. Space Marines can't breed, except by implanting the gene-seed in a young man. Space Marines can't eat, except by what their chapter serfs provide them. Thanks to Guilliman, Space Marines can take territory, but they can't hold it. If they had the means of becoming self-reliant, all that would change -- then why would you have humans?

Space Marines also have access to the greatest scientists humanity has to offer. If female Space Marines existed, they'd find a way to be able to pass on THEIR DNA instead of the Primarch's DNA. Instead of having a noble warrior-elite that served as the Emperor's speartip, who have sacrificed even the humblest of means of self-expression through procreation, you'd have a race of super-men who were by any measure better than baseline humans.

Out of universe reason:

40k is for 12 year old boys.

mixing male and female battalions is a bad idea though.

You know what, I wouldn't mind female space marines, but here's the thing 100% of the people asking for them don't get, they.won't.look.like.women, they'll be roided hulklings indistinguishable from males but for her sexual organs (which they'll lack).

every day I find out new reasons to never read the books not done by Herbert

No, there's 1 reason: Gene-seeds are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Also, do give a sauce for retroactive cloning. Because if gene-seeds made you similar to your primarch, how come all successor chapters aren't identical with the 1st founding ones, rather than having their own ways and traits?

>Space Marines can't breed

We don't know that. There's nothing in the gene-seeds that indicates they rewrite the person's DNA anymore than a pig's heart in a human would. Their sexual drive might be reduced (in some chapters), but I haven't seen anything final about their ability to breed.

>If they had the means of becoming self-reliant, all that would change -- then why would you have humans?

Mommy marine and daddy marine would not produce a babby marine, they'd produce a human equal to a baby if they weren't marines (again, no indication of DNA rewriting). And seeing that you need humans to implant gene-seeds into and it's a long and resource intensive process that not everyone can survive or even begin to undertake, a society run by marines would still be majority human with only the ruling class being made up of marines.

It took him 10,000 years to make marines a little better with extra organs. He hasn't made it possible to put the original organs into women yet. Maybe in 100,000 years?

(You) didn't give a single reason you manbaby

There's not really anything stopping men from joining the Sororitas other than petty church politics that could literally be changed at any time for any reason.

I for one would be more than onboard with feminine, longhaired bishie guys wearing corsets and heels with their armour. 40k needs more traps in it.

GW can do anything they want, if they want female marines they'll come up with a reason or retcon it in.
If GW wants to maintain the status quo, they'll do that.
Existing lore isn't going to stop them one way or another and shitty fan theories won't do it either.

Do you people think women are fucking aliens? Genetic modification would still work the same on women as they do on men, organ transplants are compatible between men and women, men and women can produce the same hormones naturally, just in different ratios.

And what the fuck is up with this theory that the Emperor didn't want them to breed and that's why he didn't make female marines? It doesn't make any fucking sense and even if it did, they can't sterilize them during the process? Seems pretty easy to remove a uterus when your implanting organs.

And even if for some reason he wanted to keep his marines all completely fertile, what about cloning?
What about the fact that scientists today care trying to make egg and sperm out of fucking skin cells? When your dealing with mad super science, a man and a woman isn't required to start reproducing.

>Because if gene-seeds made you similar to your primarch, how come all successor chapters aren't identical with the 1st founding ones, rather than having their own ways and traits?

Genetic drift and the initial gene-seed having broad possibilities for interpretation. With Blood Angels you get the Red Thirst mutating in weird ways. With Iron Fists you get different focuses on pain and siegecraft.

> We don't know that. There's nothing in the gene-seeds that indicates they rewrite the person's DNA anymore than a pig's heart in a human would. Their sexual drive might be reduced (in some chapters), but I haven't seen anything final about their ability to breed.

I read Fulgrim the other day, and one of the POV Marine characters mentions in an internal monologue that he hadn't felt physical arousal since before his transformation into a Space Marine -- and that's after months of corruption. When Space Marines do start fucking, it's because of daemon magic, not a lack of inhibitions.

>With Blood Angels you get the Red Thirst mutating in weird ways. With Iron Fists you get different focuses on pain and siegecraft.

Well, you are introducing a whole load of new organs that are pumping your body full of hormones and fusing with your nervous system.

>I read Fulgrim the other day, and one of the POV Marine characters mentions in an internal monologue that he hadn't felt physical arousal since before his transformation into a Space Marine -- and that's after months of corruption. When Space Marines do start fucking, it's because of daemon magic, not a lack of inhibitions.

Yeah, but stick a rod up his ass and put a few volts through his junk, and he'll fill a cup no problem. Then you're just a turkey baster away from impregnating a woman.

>organ transplants are compatible between men and women
Actually no
Cornea transplant for example, it fails a lot of the time if isn't made between same genders. The more you know.

Malcador legit asked this question and the emps response was "SHUT UP OLD FRIEND I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING"

its legit the emperors autism that caused him to make the process only work one way because he wanted his all boys club

Internal organs have a higher failure rate between the sexes as well, but they can be compatible. That could have been translated into the creation of Space Marines as a higher failure rate for female marines. 100% no women is more like an decree from the Emperor than a failure of science.

I honestly have zero problems with femarines. In fact, I would even welcome them, in either waifu or roided up female man-thing form. At this point, I just hope they never happen to spite the faggots who clamor for them.

Well, seeing that marines burn through recruits trying to find ones compatible, ones who accept the organs, ones whose organs develop normally, and ones that pass the training. Adding a whole set of problems with incompatibility and development, seems wasteful. Marines are suppose to be full of hormones, their own bodies pumping out way more than normal to boost their development during puberty. Women don't take as kindly to getting pumped full of male hormones and going through as physical training.

this
make sound marines have guitar guns again

this we need brothers of battle.
battle brothers if you will

>Achieved pretty 100% compatibility with all subjects
>Practically eliminated geneseed rejection
>Eliminated gene flaws, all Primaris have the full set of enhancements
>Implying he can't get it to work with an extra X chromosome

Nigga he's done the fucking hard work, baseline humanity is basic as shit from a genetic standpoint compared to Astartes physiology.

You said it yourself, they burn through recruits, I don't think wasting human life is a big concern for most Space Marines.

But let's be real for a second, if GW were to go through with it, the logistical difficulties of creating a female SM are never going to be touched.

>Do you people think women are fucking aliens?

Since the main demographic that really REEEEEs about this topic is 'no grills allowed' r9k faggots, probably.

Space Marines are genetically human. Their genetic structure and DNA are not changed. Rather, they are mutated by foreign DNA taken from the Primarchs. The gene seed contains Primarch DNA that is used to grow and implant the various organs and enhancements that are used in the creation of a Space Marine. Think of it as a normal man with a shitload of implants. The implants alter his body and mind, but not his DNA or genes. If a Space Marine was to have a child, it would be a normal human, because it would not contain any Primarch DNA.

>but I haven't seen anything final about their ability to breed.
Horus Heresy vol VII Inferno says both Astartes and Custodes are infertile and have their sex drives suppressed and redirected.

this.
40k is a good argument for why fans are the shittiest part of any setting. The original material was made by people who liked things. They liked music, they liked movies and art and comic books. They grabbed stuff they thought was cool and threw it all into a giant mess of shit that would be fun. The lore existence to justify a style and an experience. the result was unpolished but filled with personality.

It was early 2000AD in table top form. It was a series of colourful, irreverent adventures loosely connected by bits of lore. But the lore itself was always flexible enough to justify more zany bullshit. It was grimdark, fantastical and totally implausible. The fact that it was so intense was what made it fun.

I was going to make some point about how now it's all inbred and focus on fans projecting into it rather than using it to tell stories and something about grimbright be limp-wristed moralisation of purposefully twisted satire of our base desires. A nazi hug box that effectively treating pro-wrestling storylines as moral tales of contemporary politics. Really the sort of thing the game was taking the piss out of to begin with. DEATH AND GLORY is exciting fun but also pretty dumb. We should be able to respect our fun as fun and not some alternate universe to live in.
But I'm going to leave it at that. This post is way too long and I have more enjoyable shit to work on.

40k as fun setting is dead. It might live on at few tables but for the most part it's zombie made out of memes, overpriced miniatures and shitty novels.
We shouldn't morn it but try to make cool new worlds. They will never be a giant bloated franchise but I don't think they ever needed to be. Most of the time a couple friends playing with tiny men and laughing over Heavy Metal characters is enough.

I think the idea is more that while male to female organ transplants don't have a 0% chance of success, marines are already dealing with 1000 recruits to just get 1 success.

Marine implants are very strict, and it's an entire series of them rather than just one.

Female marines might be a 1 in 100000 thing, but who's going to spend the resources on the novelty of that when you can just use dudes?

Marines are a fucking terrible military force. Only 1 million marines to protect 1 million worlds, 0.1% success rate for new recruits, and they can still die relatively easily.

Maybe 40k does need a hard reset.

Don't think of marines as soldiers, think of them as nukes. They are a nuclear deterrent. Wars have ended and enemies surrendered just from a marine ship warping into the system.

There's a reason the Imperium relies more on the IG.

That was Gaius Helen. Lady Jessica is his daughter through her which makes Paul his grandson (even though he and Leto are cousins by blood)

Here's the flaw.

Name one reason why under sensible logistics women should at all be involved in combat that does not involve some emotional response.

Female Sigmarines were mentioned though in the Lore Day 1 of their introduction so bad example.

>They are a nuclear deterrent. Wars have ended and enemies surrendered just from a marine ship warping into the system.
Nukes are plentiful though. Hell, Exterminatus weapons are probably more numerous than Marines. Systems might surrender if they see a Marine ship, but that's probably more because of propaganda than the actual effectiveness of Space Marines.

I mean, chapters get wiped out or nearly wiped out on a regular basis and it takes centuries for them to replace those losses if the geneseed is lost, which also happens on a semi-regular basis. That's inefficient as fuck.

You could have 10 times as many marines and they still wouldn't be an effective galactic military force. At best they're support for the Imperial Guard who do scale well with the rest of the galaxy and honestly, the IG could do their job. Less efficiently, but with x1000000 the numbers they can afford to do it themselves.

But this is 40k we're talking about. Marines need to be the center of the spotlight and are as effective as the plot requires, even if any sort of logical thought destroys their relevance. So what's the point of excluding female marines based on something as unimportant as logic?

>Systems might surrender if they see a Marine ship, but that's probably more because of propaganda than the actual effectiveness of Space Marines.
>I mean, chapters get wiped out or nearly wiped out on a regular basis
They don't get wiped out by rebeling systems, you know