If making undead is evil because of negative energy, then why is it neutral to make shadesteel golems...

Making undead is evil because it perverts the cosmic cycle of life by using demonic magic to tortuously enslave a soul, plus other esoteric stuff.

The negative energy drain is the cherry on top.

> 3.5 was a mistake
> Probably plays 4e

So now you have your explanation for the darksteel golem

What the ever loving fuck is "shadesteel" and is it as retarded as it sounds?

The Orcus shit is 1e/early 2e material.
It's basically irrelevant in late 2e and everything past then.

Because The base setting makes no coherent sense.

It's background common to much fantasy fiction and RL anthropology, as you'd know if you were mythologically literate.

If you want to play a game where spirit cooking up some meat puppets is social progress, go for it, but that's not how most systems work.

No it isn't, now stop posting.

I didn't know Orcus existed in just about every fantasy RPG.

Just because Orcus exists in late 2e and 3e/4e/5e doesn't mean he's the source of all undead there.

Elementals aren't people.

Welcome to like a decade ago user.

Basically this But that doesn't excuse Necromancy if that is what you are getting at.

You'd be fucking surprised, he's even in Mabionogi or Ragnarok.

Hey man, you're the one who said it was 1e-2e stuff in the other thread, when that was only Throne of Bloodstone, and Dead gods and the modron march in 2e, and these events were retold in 4e again as a part of an article in the dragon magazine on Tennebrous, and they out of respect alluded to Gary's origins for him in his d20 work on Slayer's guide to the undead.

That's not what I'm saying you stupid mong.

What I'm saying is that the whole "Orcus is the source of all undead" shit is only in 1e/early 2e.

It doesn't even come up later.

Hell, go look at Libris Mortis (3e) and Open Grave (4e). Orcus is a big dick demon lord, but he's hardly the source of all undeath.

>there's more to why undead is bad, than negative energy.
Yep this.

Negative energy is just energy. If all of it was "Evil" then by the same logic all positive energy creatures are good. 90% of the of creatures in D&D are on the positive side included. This includes: Devils, Demon Lords, and Gods of Destruction.

>Different user
>Orcus isn't the only source of all undead
>early 2e.

If Orcus was the only source of undeath that would make all kinds of nonsense. We know in cannon Orcus started existence as a Human- and well Undead have definitely existed long before humans set foot on the world(s)

Bitch 3.5 carries on from 3e which 2e, it takes place after Vecna's little fun trip to Sigil, and the like of the Demiplane of Dread is still canon, mentioned in Dragon magazine which puts forward what happened to Lord Soth's Domain after he left and got killed off, and directly states Strahd is still in there, to note that the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft module isn't the canon adventure, but a instead, a remake of the first one.

The following with Orcus as I know is as follows-
Human Wizard/Cleric to a Deity of Slaughter, cast a Dweomer that killed everything on his native plane, allegedly resulting in the creation of the undead some time after he became larvae (Slayer's guide to the undead by the Gman)

Orcus then worked his way up the ladder during a period that encompassed the Queen of Chaos's rule and fall, to note, Orcus was alive waaaaaay waaay back when things were highly prehistoric, (He has that skull head for a reason you know) the demonic progression was changed in a later edition (Order of what demons he became before becoming demon lord)

Details of his layer of the Abyss, overwritten by a later change, but environmental details and certain landmarks remained (His Palace, and servants have all remained consistent, in addition to that mountain that is said to be made up of all the skeletons ever) number of layer changed as of note and his chief servant remained up into Dead gods, who you meet at his negative plane stronghold a shadow of it's former self. (Throne of Bloodstone) (Various planar books past this adventure)

His Ascension to godhood due to his cult following, presumably leading to the events of Ghostwalk, before whatsherface drow bitch killed him off took over his layer, and started her civil war in the underdark and set in motion the events of dead gods. (2e, demon worship fiasco that had him killed off ghostwlak 3.5 which actually has him as a deity) Becomes Tennebrous, attains the last word, kills off 3-5 deities, or 3 and an avatar or of set I think, before dying and getting resurrected for 3.5-

(3.5, post Dead gods after his half-Ogre high priest resurrected him after turning to stone to drift on the astral sea, leading to the events of Dungeon 14*) Was Detailed in BOVD and Fiendish Codex Hordes of the Abyss, but both are the same, and the only information that actually matters in those books are details of his layer, cults and servants, his actual accurate stats are in a Dungeon magazine issue, because WOTC came up with the brilliant idea of giving everyone two sources for information on Demon Lords in 3.5 and then just releasing their actual stats in Dragon Magazine issues with the proper details required. In this, he is accounted for his undead-like qualities acquired from his fucking second brush with death, and his last word, next to the reapperance of his Half-Orgre servant from 2e leading one of his armies again.

It goes like this -

1e-3.5
-Human Wiz/Cleric or one of the two
-Dweomer that killed everything on his native plane kickstarting the undead
-Dead
-Demon
-Demon Lord
-God
-Dead, almost erased via memory holing
-Undead God without original name (names are important in D&D)
-Dead/sort of not really dormant because of how deity death works
-Resurrected back on his layer
-Demon Lord with Undead qualities
-Tries to kill Demogorgon with PC help, get's ass kicked

Literally none of this means he has a link to all undead ever.

-4e
Human or ex-deity in Dawn war changed the origin of his wand's head
-Alussion Gygax's interjection to his lore with an unforgivable act (Creation of the undead)
-Dead
-Demon (Different progression)
-Demon Lord
-Godhood, Killed by Drowbitch
-Tennebrous
-Dead, resurrected as Demon Lord
-Trying to Steal him some divinity from Crowbitch

I'm talking about necromancy as demonic and often inherently evil in mythology, user, not about D&D specific fluff.

Necromantic divination had the same problems for the same reasons, btw.

Oh right, gonna dump some Orcus stuff, including his true name next for anyone who needs it for a campaign, just to spite this asshat. I bet you don't know what the fucking Rappan Athuk is.

>Slayer's Guide to Undead

You know this is literally a 3pp book, right?

Ad one of the few d20 books Written by Gary Gygax before he died. 4e's entries on Orcus aludes to it, next to the massive article 4e had for the events of dead gods with tennebrous.

Gary Gygax's writing means shit in the big picture.

Unless you think it's lawful good to kill someone after they convert to LG, so that they can't backslide.

Because alignment is retarded and makes no sense.

Truename

I should mention there are ways to make undead outside of Orcus' influence. There's even A PC method of becoming a lich that avoids going through Orcus for, though he's upset about it.

It's amazing how much autismal effort he put into being wrong.

>hating Gygaxian paladins

Gygaxian morality is as Anglo-Saxon LG as it gets, user. It's practically plagiarized from Blackstone's law dictionary.

If you can't handle true LG because you're a pampered, hypocritical TN first worlder who thinks hard times are high prices at Starbucks during the pride parade, I get it. But Gygaxian morality is your cultural heritage.

And? It's still a 3pp book, you mong.

He's right, you know.

True lawful good is just feudalism, where all who might otherwise fall to sin and death in a cruel world with no strong protecting hand to guide them are serfs, under the guiding light of the church, or benevolent state or what have you.

making undead is evil because fucking with people's corpses is generally regarded as antisocial and weird and disrespectful. all the negative energy/spirit cycle/demon/etc. stuff is just an easy excuse.

I've not stated one can't use necromancy outside of Orcus'sinfluence, and Archlichdom is one of the many triumphs over his high involvement in the "art". But er, following the content's of VR's guide to the Lich, re-iterated in Monsters of Faerun (Lich Salient abilities are converted to 3.5 in there, such as the painwrakc gaze) Lich's get the most out of their abilities if they're evil.
It's the only valid passage in it anyway, even if the alleged Dweomer casting did not take place, Fat Fuck Orcus was a bastard in life, and it's not like all of the events of 1-3.5 edition of D&D are automatically reconnected by the past, ESPECIALLY in the case of FR, and technically the multiverse expanded upon through planescape, because of the canon FR comics which details that when an edition change comes along, it happens in real-time to the active people on the material plane. The Time of troubles changing magic for example, (1e-2e) was something they actuallty detailed as the actual memorized spells in spellbooks changing, which was observed in real-time.

Vecna's little trip to Sigil though, I should note caused a lot of butterfly effect/Mandella effect shit to go off, but a lot of 2e stuff did remain, some of it was either missed out, detailed but technically more of excerpts from older work for example, Kazerabet from the Necromancer's handbook, the Undead Queen reappeared in Heroes of Horror as the example Dread Necro for example.

What the fuck are you even talking about by this point?

This has jack shit to do with Orcus's alleged link to the majority of undead, which doesn't fucking exist.

Orcus + Wand + Juggernaught + His layer + Enough spellcasting undead to buff him hard enough to break the CR.

...

Orcus-Blooded template.

And now for the correct CR 32 D&D 3.5 Orcus, not the fucking BOVD or FCHOTA ones which are missing out his proper spell repository, next to the last word. Technically missing his Bloodstone stuff, but to be honest the Other Demon Lords got this treatment to boot, it's just a shame he didn't get a Dragon Article opposed to where this did show up.

...

Aspect of Orcus now. (not bothering with the CR 20-something Orcus in 3.5, anyone has BOVD or Fiendish Codex 1)

...

...

Fiendish Codex bits, I think the guy had a total of like what, 5 new cults in 3.5, theres two in the books, a Drow one and another one I can't remember.

Because it's not evil to make undead: it's Evil-with-a-capital-E. Just like it's Good-with-a-capital-G to genocide orcs and goblins and other Evil races, because it produces a measurable, quantitative net loss of Evil in the universe.
Since Elementals are Neutral-with-a-capital-N, it's not Evil-with-a-capital-E or Good-with-a-capital-G to enslave and kill them.

The idea that the undead are animated by "negative energy" is dumb in the first place. In my setting, they're animated by restless spirits or demons.

Not that guy, but 3.5 is shit. I prefer 2e.

Because the God's recognize that you're trying to make Necrons and think it's cool as fuck.

Restless spirits ARE negative energy.