Which classs draws more special snowflakes, gunslingers or monks?

Which classs draws more special snowflakes, gunslingers or monks?

Gunslinging monks
When you run out of ammo, switch to unarmed

Guns.
A session with those faggots make me understand why so many other people have a no-guns policy.

Why are 'gunslingers' even a thing in non-western settings. Like, a guy with a bandolier of flintlock pistols is one thing, but dual-wielding inexplicably modern guns in a fantasy setting is pure cancer.

Is it special snowflake to play a gunslinger and constantly mention how your character uses Center Axis Relock?

Am I the only one here who hates monks? I just can't stand them, fuck monks.

Monks.

Players can usually just be happy with "Bad ass gun man". Mostly it's boring rather than snowflake.

But with monks there is a SPECIFIC kind of thing they are going for (or emulating)

China did have its own "Wild West" Wild East? period in Manchuria for a while. Otherwise, John Woo.

Gunslingers. Because they keep insisting on having guns in settings without guns. Don't get me wrong, wuxia monks don't really fit in most typical fantasy settings either, but "magic guy who punches stuff" is a hell of alot less immersion-breaking than "LOL I'M BLACK WIDOW FROM TEH AVENGERS MOVIE!"

I honestly really like this idea

A character who uses some kinda chakra gun, so they fire a mystical flintlock powered by their Chi

brb writing setting

I dunno about snowflakes but I'm yet to deal with a gunslinger player who wasn't an insufferable twat.

Our campaign is a western themed adventure. With the "guns everywhere" special rule. Basically everyone has firearm proficiency, ammunition costs way less, and if you take a level of gunslinger you can add your dex mod to damage rolls.

Basically everyone has a level of gunslinger

I now want to play a musketeer...

Monks.
>All cringey
>Mostly trying to be tuff guys or anime based
>Never have a creative take
Gunslingers
>Most bad
>Most trying to be: Cowboys, Snipers, Commandos, or Pirates
>I've seen one that made it interesting, druid with a gorilla. Both used shotguns, the gorilla later adopted siege weapons and the druid took up revolver sniping.

Yes.

>non-western guns aren't a thing
Shamefur dispray

>>I've seen one that made it interesting, druid with a gorilla. Both used shotguns, the gorilla later adopted siege weapons and the druid took up revolver sniping.

That honestly sounds alot more retarded than an "anime-based" monk.

The only reason the Japanese would use Japanese made guns was if they couldn't afford European guns.

No, but it's stupid since CAR training wouldn't be very helpful using an old-fashioned revolver; you don't shoot them the same way and they aren't good at the same things.

Or because they wanted to promote Japanese nationalism. In any case, the myth that the samurai didn't use guns because "muh honor" is retarded.

That sounds like an anime based gunslinger.

Not anime-based, no. Still pretty fucking retarded though.

Those are just imitations of western guns, though, based on Spanish and Portugese imports. If you wanted a legitimately non-western gun, some of the more archaic Chinese and Indian matchlocks would make more sense.

I've seen some weeb shit with Monk, but I have seen some real fuckin' unnecessarily over the top edgelord shit with gunslinger.

All I want is to play a Wild West PF game where I'm a hillbilly orc using his punt gun to bust holes in everything, damn it.

And European use of gunpowder only came about because of contact with the Chinese, so western use of firearms can trace its origins all the way back to the far east.

Sounds more like a 14 year old playing Skyrim with Mods than anime DESU, which is somehow an even WORSE form of cancer.

Gunslingers tend to be tedious rules-lawyers

Well, you said guns, not necessarily firearms, and guns in the sense it is used today denotes a developmental geneology that is almost entirely western in root outside of very distant relations.

Not to say the Far East didn't make significant or excellent developments (their development of rocketry certainly surpassed the west well into the 18th century), but Far Eastern guns reached a dead end and were surpassed by Western ones long ago, something both the Japanese and eventually the Chinese recognized.

we had a ranger with a gorilla companion that carried a cannon

Gunslingers should just be rogues and rangers. They solve a problem that doesn't exist.

My point was that guns can make sense in non-western settings, but I will say that if the GM wants to use a setting where guns are not a thing then the players should respect that, not throw an autistic hissy fit because they couldn't get their way.

>playing a low technology magic fantasy setting
>want to play a guy with a gun

>playing a high tech modern setting
>want to play a guy with magic

why?

Nah monks are shit

If there are no guns, then there shouldn't be plate armor either.

Why are monks acceptable at all? I don't remember any story, even the most faux-medieval ones, featuring martial artist monks punching people. Why are they even a thing? At least gunslingers can be muskeeters, it fits a renaissance setting so long you ban the most modern guns.

Warnachine - arcane tempest gun mages

>More special snowflakes
Gunslingers by a mile. Gunslingers are almost always homebrew, dumb finnicky shit introduced because the player pestered the DM into allowing it despite he's the only guy in the setting with a gun

>Shitty T5 classes that are inferior to Barbs and Casters in almost anyway
>snowflake
Suuuuure

Rogues. Search your heart you know it to be true. Fuck rogues.

>despite he's the only guy in the setting with a gun
That's really more the fault of fantasy writers not knowing that full plate came after gonnes

How does it clash more than monks? Monks are the mos weeb shit I can imagine. They are even worse than ninjas.

Gunslingers. Monks are only technically locked into hand to hand, and can usually convince a GM to let them use Monk-ish weapons like staves and fist loads. Gunslingers are limited to "gun", which unless the setting has reasonable levels of repeater or revolver tech, is a literal one-shot wonder. Hand crossbows are shit and always will be.

>magic guns

wow so original

fucking dogshit idea

Asceticism and unarmed combat has been a thing I'm Western history and culture you know. Knights would learn grappling, Scotts had wrestling, Mediterranean had Pankration, Scandis had Glima, etc. Meanwhile the actual Christian monk enclaves and orders that weren't constantly drunk did practice asceticism, prayer, and finding inner peace and knowing oneself and other lame stuff like that. Further other ascetics like Hermits and Mendicants have always been staples of western fantasy.

how are either of those particularly conducive to special snowflakes?

Female martials

The thing is, you call them monks, not grappling knights or anything. You also use terms like Zen and Chi energy. They are clearly designed to shoehorn weeb shit into fantasy western setting.

Then just rename it as mana, prana, of, or some other western magical bullshit. Further their abilities are no different than those super holy friars and Irish mythology heroes supposedly had.
Complaining about monks being hamfisted bullshit is no better than saying than saying that Alchemists are shoehorned Arab bullshit, or that Magi are shoehorned Zoroastrian bullshit.

Plus, the phrase "monk" is a Greek term anyway, and just means hermit

Reread my post and point out where exactly I mentioned 'clashing' anywhere you dumb nigger
Guy who punches shit is nowhere near as close to breaking the setting as a guy who develops technology that took us multiple generations of scientists in the fields of metallurgy and alchemistry, plus a few hundred years to develop flintlocks but is still young enough to adventure and be a crack shot
>yeah but im gonna pretend that officially sanctioned classes that can you can literally just homebrew out all the mysticism elements is LESS snowflake than my finnicky, rules-lawyering OC

In a magical world everything presumably has some sort of magical life force that flows through them. If it didn't, it doesn't make much sense that other magic works at all either. Why wouldn't there be people who used physical training to harness this power in the body directly rather than using magic to call upon other sources?

In a real world sense, imagine such a person decided to leave the far east and travel to the west. They're the master of kicking ass, so why wouldn't they be able to make it there and decide to teach people some things?

If you're simply bias against asian theology and mysticism, then in that case just make your setting have no asian shit and make it something functionally similar.

Most settings are not even medieval. Cities, standing armies, powerful kings is something of the renaissance/early modern era, they are not medieval at all. They are late medieval at most when the first gunpowder weapons entered into the scene. Full plate armour wasn't even a thing until the late middle ages/early modern.

Gunslingers.

No one actually plays monks.

I mean hey, you're free to badger the DM about how his or the official settings are W R O N G and how they should totally introduce guns.

That doesn't stop your time-wasting, OC maintenance mechanics and unbalanced homebrew from being an annoying special snowflake

>prana
>western magical bullshit

one is literally wannabe goku and the only weeb based core class
the other is either going to be some han solo motherfucker who thinks he's the hottest shit since that efreeti ate red hot spicy curry or the punisher/some other grimdark dude whose name is not important, but what is important is what he's going to do.

Unknown. If the gun being used is appropriate, the amount of narration is roughly equivalent to the other player's descriptions, and the circumstances of the action are informed by CAR (usually cornering, retention, and reloading) then no.

If its an inappropriate gun, repetitive or excessive description, or out of fucking nowhere then yes.

Relative to 5e: gunslinger. By definition you're dragging in a totally new supplement just for your character and the vast majority of them are Matt Mercer fandrones who want to play the CR at-home game.

The Japs had some of the best marksmen of the Renaissance and managed to perfect a gunline that could put a tercio to shame. Hell, they had the most guns per capita in the world up until the Meiji period. The Japanese used matchlocks for 300 fucking years. They managed to perfect them (which doesn't really mean much when going up against flintlocks or percussion caps, but bear with me for the sake of drama).

Once the Nanban trade started the Samurai went fucking crazy over guns. They loved the damn things. Cheap to maintain, easy to use, and loud as all fuck. What isn't there to love.

Wizards and Druids

It also meant they didn't have to rely on bows and arrows in combat, which despite the popular image of the katana was the samurai's primary weapon of choice. Swords were more of a status symbol and practicing with swords was a philosophical pursuit, when war broke out they went with the weapons that actually worked.

"I am focused on using one weapon" (guns and fists in this case) as a class concept is almost as retarded as "I can do literally everything with magic".

Why do people have a problem with guns in a world where a magically inclined person can learn how to chuck fireballs, summon demons from another plane, and stop time?

honestly flintlock mcpirateface feels a lot more fantasy-appropriate than crouching tiger hidden autism.

Play anima and enjoy gunhell or make your own gunhell.

So it's basically pirates vs ninjas.

>homebrew
lel

because it violates their fantasy tropes. which themselves are anachronistic. full plate armor and handheld firearms showed up at the same time.

They're the exact same level of bullshit, monks only get a pass because they've been in D&D longer

People in this thread are unironically saying that a class that can punch people in plate armor barehanded and run up walls is somehow fitting in a western fantasy game, this is your brain on D&D

>People in this thread are unironically saying that a class that can punch people in plate armor barehanded and run up walls is somehow fitting in a western fantasy game, this is your brain on D&D
Druids have been in D&D for a long time, what's the problem with them? Or you meant Wizards? or was it Clerics? sorry, they all can do that so easily is kinda hard to guess which one you meant

My biggest problem with monks is that I don't -want- to play an over-the-top magic-fist-man. The closest thing to magic I want available is the ability to effectively fight people in armor with a walking stick.

I don't wanna run up walls, or sense chi surging through all living things, see visions of the future, stop aging, or shoot hadoukens from my mouth. I just wanna be an angry old drunk who can Segal people to death while ranting about the lack of discipline people have these days.

user, they said BARE hands, not BEAR hands.

Sorcerers or maguses.

dude, there were greek settlements in india hundreds of years before the roman empire, and east asian nomads invaded europe at least twice.

it's not a great stretch in a world with teleportation to imagine there may be some cultural exchange going on.

Don't worry, you'll suck at both in most systems.

I feel you though, when PF released Brawler I was pretty hyped, I like the idea of the badass normal dude, it ended being almost as bad as monk though. Umonk is also not so great either T4 at best (arguably you can make some PHB archetyped monks be better than Umonk).

Anima is great for this though, everybody has ki, or vitae or whatever (depending on the region it has a name) it's basically martial knowledge and you can do lots of stuff with it if you train it. Yep, even wizards have it. But you can focus on martial arts and being tough if you prefer instead of hadoukens.

Jesus yes

>People are fine with mounted archerty and recurve bows in D/D but not with monks
Flash news, both come from Asia

Based on the two provided options, Monk.

Otherwise I'd say anything Psionic. That includes monks anyway due to the whole inner power concept, which D&D 4e codified by making monks a psionic striker. Psionics tends to include classes which do the same thing as basic classes but with "cool" mind powers, lots of glowing, and no silly gestures or gibberish unless you're copying some anime bullshit. Add in that nearly every established setting makes psionics stupidly rare and virtually unknown and you have a formula for characters with "mysterious" unique abilities that just beg for someone to ask how they did all those magical feats without actually using magic.

Not that I dislike psionics. It can work well without being cringy but like the Warlock it tends to attract certain kinds of players that just have to be more special than everyone else at the table.

As if there was anything wrong with that.
Fantasy settings are a collective mythology. Many people associate guns to a later period, and pushing it into a setting for the sake of historical accuracy is dumb since we're talking about fantasy.
If you want to run a fantasy game where guns are omnipresent and oh-so-superior to mere archaic bow and arrow and penetrating any armor, feel free to do so. Just don't bother other people and their settings with it.

Same can be said of monks

Arguable, since to my mind, them being there since the 1st edition of DnD makes them more part of the whole thing.
But it all can be resolved by "don't be a twat with your class", so...

It ended up being pretty funny. Guerrilla warfare puns happened a lot.
They kept the shotguns and actually were pretty handy to have with climb speeds and all, the gorilla especially ended up getting a lot of good shots off. Like the time the druid rode him into battle, druid geysered someone up into the air and the gorilla managed to crit the guy.

You can't tell me the image of a druid pushing someone into the air with scalding water only to be shot back up by a shotgun held by a gorilla isn't cool. Cooler than 'Lol I punch u' and it's many samey spins.

Sounds like something an eight year old would make and/or find entertaining

I didn't know that the chinese could literally run up walls and punch through walls barehanded. If a world with teleportation is an excuse to have shaolin monks in your setting vaugely based on lord of the rings, why can't it justify technology advancing enough to have guns (especially since it's already advanced enough to have plate armor and all kinds of other stuff)

I appropriate this clown for at least being honest that it's only different because monks have been along the whole time (because back inn the 80's people thought martial arts movies were the coolest)

>I didn't know that the chinese could literally run up walls and punch through walls barehanded.

do you have a problem with that happening in fantasy china? if not, then why couldn't some people come from fantasy china to fantasy europe?

No warrior from mythology had Full Plate Armor.

What is Gulliver's Travels?

I meant Western as in 'the wild west', you cock mongling mongoloid. I was specifically criticizing the trope of the gunslinger, which implies cowboy aesthetics, and it's use in non-profit settings.

I am everything you guys hate, apparently.

I'm far more fond of "psychic powers" than standard magic, and I love "wild west" gunslinging.

I do admit, though, that it's all because I'm a huge fan of "genre mashup", and prefer blended genres over something like straight fantasy. Specifically sci-fi tropes (like "psionics") and western tropes (like "western guns").

Neither fits well in "normal fantasy" (I'd include eastern-style martial arts as well), but I personally find that I like things better with them blended in.

so using ground-up diamonds to bring a person to life is fair game but running up a wall, something physically capable by a very small amount of athletes, is stupid to you?

That's called fisticuffs
I dig it

Monks for Gods sake anyone who says otherwise is lying, extremely lucky, or has made several monks.

This.

Druids, without a doubt

You're not alone in that sentiment.

Depends on the player

>playing pirate campaign
>one guy is a pirate cowboy
>rides a horse across the deck

Unless you count Arthurian tales and their more modern interpretations.

>I didn't know that the chinese could literally run up walls and punch through walls barehanded. If a world with teleportation is an excuse to have shaolin monks in your setting vaugely based on lord of the rings, why can't it justify technology advancing enough to have guns (especially since it's already advanced enough to have plate armor and all kinds of other stuff)

Fantasy setting is the word you are looking for. Seriously, y'all should stop with the plate armour argument. If you remove it from most medieval setting is it makes literally no difference. It's a question of aesthetics.

>I appropriate this clown for at least being honest that it's only different because monks have been along the whole time (because back inn the 80's people thought martial arts movies were the coolest)

And that was exactly the point of the discussion you asshat. The reason monks are more acceptable is that they fit better in a magic world where guns are a disliked possibility, and where plate armour is a forgivable anomaly. If you want to use experts in the medieval-renaissance period to make your own RPG I sure as hell will play it, but using historical accuracy in a world based on what looks cool is just dumb.

> Naval Cavalry
> Navalry

>Fantasy/magic means that people can punch giant dragons with their barehands but it doesn't mean people can invent guns or a gun-analog