He think a guy with a sharp stick should be as powerful as the guy who can bend the very fabric of the reality to his...

I don't see meme wizards teleporting people to hell, user. I see them making a handful of subtle changes to things like the political climate.

>let's compare a level 1 wizard to an epic level fighter xD

Oh, but it is fine to make the comparisons with the roles reversed!

Always felt that Wizards sacrifice themselves to their magic. The magic they were in control of, the less they were actually in control. Their magic is more of a weakness than any against a swordsman.

But he's not.

Unless the 20th level fighter crits you're just... taking a lot of damage.

Meanwhile, a mid-level spellcaster can quite easily kill you outright if you get unlucky with saves.

why cant he tear apart reality with his stick?

>he thinks the stalest, most retarded bait on Veeky Forums is worth posting

sage mothafucka!

>damage doesn't kill people
Killing people isn't the problem, and never has been.

What's the problem then?

The problem is that I haven't yet come into this thread pretending to be an egotistical attention whore to derail this bullshit and get the thread to 404 in the morning. What did you guys think I was doing? No one is that aware of their own behavior and posts about it while they're doing it.

a fighter with action surge and maneuvers can pull of 8 attacks worth 2d6 each, and with it 8 superiority dice worth d12 each
this is 148 damage, or about equal to the average damage of meteor swarm
as an attack instead of a save you can crit, but you can miss instead of guaranteed half damage
it is affected by resistance to non-magical attacks, although even a +1 weapon will negate this weakness

a wizards other level 20 options are foresight, powerful but not game breaking unless combines with other party members like the aforementioned fighter to get more crits, imprisonment which hits one person albeit permanently
and wish, although using the wish outside of its normal bounds, like "i want the lich to be dead" invited the DM to screw you for abusing wish, like the lich remarking he is already dead

the wizard is powerful, but the fighter is not totally without options, as action surge is a very potent ability

also, if forced into encounters that last the whole day, fighters have better use of short rests than wizards, and are less susceptible to using their best abilities on a "Bait" encounter

What are you trying to say user?

So caster supremacy is a meme according to you?

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, typo or not.

>That wizard from that scary Regular Show Episode

That was from the episode where some wizard fucked up their house greatly right? If so. Stat him?

>wastes his life on Veeky Forums

I'm saying everyone is an idiot, everyone should admit it, this argument is especially pointless because it's been done to death, and the only way I've ever managed to stop you idiots from doing this is ass-pulling the most cancerous bullshit and derailing the thread to the point that the mods are forced to delete the thread because it's beyond coherence.

>So caster supremacy is a meme according to you?

Caster supremacy exists in 3.5. It isn't as big of an issue in 5e. Damage is one of the biggest regards where Wizards don't win out in either case, since killing shit is not a problem the fighter has.

Of course, that's all beside the point. OP is implying that Caster Supremacy is a good thing because logically, a Wizard can only be as powerful as a god and not any weaker, and a fighter can only be as powerful as a fat NEET with a foam sword and no stronger, thus it's fair.

Despite the fact that one could easily make a system where the opposite is true and Fighters are juggling boulders while wizards are struggling to make coins appear behind people's ears.

It's all relative, and there's nothing about bending the fabric of reality that's inherently better. If I had the power to 'bend reality', but the only thing I could do with it was teleport my heart out of my chest, I wouldn't be some all powerful master of the universe, would I?

>he thinks a thinly veiled bait thread will get replies
>it does

in 5e at least, a caster is not going to run circles around the entire party under normal circumstances

casters can be broken with a munchkin mindset, but this requires willful action on the part of the person trying to break the game

casters do have way more utility in out of combat encounters, like wizards knowing fabricate and various divination spells, but as with combat, this is only if the player is seriously going out of his way to maximize their character

and a lot of the shenanigans can be put to an end early by a observant DM
like wish going awry because he wished to be immortal and turned into a jellyfish

on a semi-related note, the most hypothetical damage in a single turn is done by a vengeance paladin

Ex-fucking-xactly! Come on people! This bait is more obvious than most of mine and I quite literally say that I'm baiting every other post!

Watch it reach bump limit ;)

>wake up
>thanks christ for the wars of the cross and the inquisition
>sissy wizards and techubermensch lost to retards with pointy sticks

DEUS VULT.
Remember to train your ki!

Found the fat sweaty nerd.

>he think a guy
>"Wizards are an INT class"

>he thinks a guy with a magic lighter should be as powerful as the guy who can casually blow up the planet

Doesn't seem like Christianity won anything really since the church has zero influence in people's lives.

Deus kiss my ass more like it.

t. Elizabeth not an actual empress
Go be useful and give giovanni a heir you dumb slut.

>He's never seen Fate/Zero or Fate/StayNight
>When you're so good with a sword the very fabric of reality changes itself to accommodate you.

>he thinks a guy who can make pretty fireworks should be as powerful as Hercules
Powerlevels are arbitrary. Only DnD does magic without any kind of hardships or consequences.

If DnD used magic as plot device (ritual circles, hard-to-get ingredients that exist solely as reasons for lengthy fetch quests, sacrificing your own limbs and organs to power particularly powerful spells etc.), we wouldn't have this problem of retards thinking that wizards should always be more powerful than everyone else.

>he thinks a guy that can cast fireworks and polimorph some peasants should be as powerful as the guy who can tank cannonballs, move and fight at supersonic speeds, dash through stone walls and hurl massive boulders

Fucking Fake Assassin was something else. Everyone has bullshit magic powers from all sorts of hacks, like being descended from a God or having a legendary artifact.

That fucker just kept trying to kill a fucking bird until the universe overloaded from him trying to kill a fucking bird and let him break time and space to kill a fucking bird.

>Fake Assassin
truly best boy of our time
i have such a hard-on for people who transcend the mundane nature of their art into the realm of supernatural purely via honing their skill

Martials are fucking retarded and magic should be in almost ever case by its nature extremely broken. Like some of the most basic shock spells should be more than enough to kill almost literally anything that is alive. You're throwing lightning for fuck's sake.

But whatever.

Nice critical thinking. I hereby set you free from Veeky Forums.

What system are you playing?

>retarded anime bullshit

>implying that wizards are capable of casting lighting
>not just capable of casting memes

>Wizard doesn't cast fireball
>Just convinces you he cast fireball.

>Not wanting them both to be ultra-powerful together so they can just team up to fuck up things
Look man, I just want us to get along. Just make my sword into space-fuckyourshit-fire-death-void material so I can jump inside the monster while you bombard it with crazy bullshit

Yeah, I see it now. tl;dr is 'more magic, bigger the sacrifice'.

>OP is implying that Caster Supremacy is a good thing because logically, a Wizard can only be as powerful as a god and not any weaker, and a fighter can only be as powerful as a fat NEET with a foam sword and no stronger

Which only makes sense. Magicians SHOULD be stronger than martials.

>the series where the strongest servant is a caster
>the series where the strongest mage isn't even a servant

lel

>>retarded anime bullshit
>implying people transcending the mundane nature of their art is solely anime thing

>who is Pygmallion who made a human being by sculpting really hard
>who are Redguards from TES who split atoms by swording really hard
>who are a bunch of people from Norse mythology
shiggy

>who are Redguards from TES who split atoms by swording really hard

Just a minor nitpick
The Panktratosword was an act of magic, not transcending the mundane.

>>the series where the strongest servant is a caster
Doesn't Gil just throw swords at people? Don't know if I'd call him much of a caster.

He's talking about Zero Caster, probably.

But he's not talking about Gilgamesh.

>He's talking about Zero Caster, probably.
You mean the guy who loses? He's like the first or second servant to bite it.

Because everyone gangs up on him, duh.

You're not wrong, but it's pretty apparent that Gil isn't giving much of a fuck during the fight. He's the guy cracked a reality marble with a single attack, he could probably handle Caster.

Besides that, Saber could have taken him out either way. The only thing everyone else was there for was to keep Caster from cratering the town.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying that there's no way Medea is the strongest Servant in FS/N, so he was probably talking about Gilles de Rais.

>so he was probably talking about Gilles de Rais.

I was not alluding to good ol' Bluebeard. More so the extended Fate series as a whole.

They gang up on him because he's threatening the secrecy of magic and the lives of millions of people, not because he's strong. Dude was easily the weakest Servant in that war.

>Dude was easily the weakest Servant in that war.
Not THE weakest, but he was down there.

I wouldn't say Gilles was the weakest Servant, to be honest.
He was a late-game Servant, due to how his Noble Phantasm works, which is why he lost - because he got taken out early in the game.

The winning strategy for Gilles was to sit tight somewhere, amassing power from his book and waiting until the other contesters for the Grail take each other out, then use his amassed power to finish off the survivors.

He was probably referring to Solomon and the guy from Tsukihime

>not anima
We quadric fighters.
Casterlets need no apply.

Did you really get so assblasted about getting blown the fuck out in the last thread that you had to make a new one and hope for a better result?

>He gives his mages exorbant amounts of spells, let's him cast without spell components or modified casting times
>Implying the mage will be bending reality to his/her will at low levels, and only grasping it at mid point
>Thinks that mages aren't affected by environment, people viewing his casting, dangers of loosing his spellbook, or miscasting accidents
>Thinks that people aren't trained to target him for what he can do in a fight, putting him at the most risk.
>Thinks that his poor Armour isn't because he can't wear anything that restricts his hand signs for casting

as long as my old wizard can kick your young warrior's ass into oblivion, i'm happy

it is a fantasy game.
the system is made up from the ground.
how can you possibly argue in favour of skewed class power in a multiplayer-oriented genre?

Fighters vs. Wizards is like Superman vs. Batman.

Batman wins only if he has enough prep time.

Balance is a myth

>comparing fighters to superman

Please, do fuck off.

sounds like it would fit perfectly into a fantasy RPG then.

the quest to find out why wizards > martials ?

Fighters are Superman. They are people with immediate access to certain limited amount of abilities.
Meanwhile, wizards are Batman. They are pure utility, with access to limitless amount of abilities, but it isn't immediate.

The issue of balancing fighters vs. wizards is the amount of prep time a wizard needs to kick the fighter's ass.

In DnD the amount of prep time required is negligible, and thus wizards are superior to fighters.
In games like Exalted, or games with magic as plot point, the amount of prep time required is impractically long, and thus wizards are inferior to fighters.

>he actually thinks that magic within fantasy game should be able to do anything on spot save utility cantrips or at best, some mediocre combat tricks able to take out random mooks but not really well trained fighters, and that real powerful effects shouldn't require hours-long rituals including rare and hard to get components, with a big chance of inducing lovecraftian madness in your brains when it backfires.

>Exalted
>wizards are inferior to fighters.

That is debateable.
Though the gap is so much thinner.

>the quest to find out why wizards > martials ?
no, balance.

On the same note, i always wonder what kind of people actually want strong mages. i never understood the appeal of being OP by default.

Only OP in comparison to martials

:^)

...

>he's not playing exalted

kek

so whats the appeal of roleplaying a mage in a system that clearly favours it?
whenever we realise that balance is off we just nerf/buff whatever we feel fit.

Wizards still rule at the higher end of cheese in Exalted. At least they're closer in power thanks to annoying anime influenced logic.

never saw that one before

i like it

Not favors it, just stronger than stupid fucking barbarians.

Not every roleplaying game is devoted to combat.

>implying you should be able to bend reality to such an extent on the fly when I could just stab you before you finish.
vancian magic is dumb.

Are people really this biased over martials

> Fighters vs. Wizards is like Superman vs. Batman.
It also causes the same amount of butthurt as Superman vs. Batman debates and meaningless arguments on both sides, so, yeah, seems legit.

Play anima if you want full on martial cheese and triggering of D&D players.

ok, so lets say you have a system not devoted to combat.
how about we balance out of combat abilities the same way as combat abilities?
why should casting a fireball, something that is impossible in reality, be as easy as something you could actually do, like making a stew or swinging a sword?

people complain that martials are vastly weaker at the same level

then when you suggest that martials should have the same overall utility as a mage, they complain some more

the idea that all characters are somewhat equally useful or fill an important niche is too much of a stretch for them

Also, Doomguy - the guy who killed demons so hard he became an immortal demon-hating murder machine.

I have a reasonable argument against wizards being overpowered. In real life we have theoretical physicists who have the knowledge to create weapons that would destroy the entire planet in a single blow. but how many of them actually do shit like that? none, because even though they know how to do it they can't because it's really fucking hard, requires loads of personnel and resources that a single man would never have access to. goverments? sure but a lone man locked away in a tower would never accomplish these things. theoretical physicist gets BTFO by some dickhead with a gun.

It's much easier to justify all this reality warping bullshit on wizards because it's just magic, as opposed to fighters who are always a bit grounded in reality. Even at their best fighters are about on the level of Hercules, which is still a fair step down from the near-literal God a wizard could become and no one would bat an eye. If you un-ground fighters and put them on the same level, you get shit like Tome of Battle or 4e, which everyone agrees is at the very least kind of ridiculous.

But the fact remains that players are allowed to, and would like to, play as both martials and casters. Focusing on balance too much is certainly a thing - you can't put all your attentions into making the system as fair and as equal to everyone as possible - but you also can't allow wizards a free reign while fighters get to just smash things really hard, because guess what? Then it's not fun to be a fighter.

The only solution is to tone back the wizards. Make them rare, bring their power to manageable levels - make their tools less powerful and make it so that no wizard can have them all - and make magic a dangerous thing to wield, like a sword with its hilt replaced with another blade. Even 5e doesn't really do this too much, and so for all the shit it claims on being more balanced than 3.5e, it's only a matter of time before they start to give way more toys to casters than martials, bringing us right back to the starting point all over again.

Yeah except wizards can do that shit with the snap of their fingers

But his point is that they shouldn't. Can't you read?

Again, prep time.
The amount of time required for a theoretical physicist to make a superweapon on his own, without any support, is unfeasibly long.

Which is why ritual magic and magic as plot point (requiring multiple casters to perform the spell, gathering the required ingredients, drawing complicated ritual circles and generally requiring resources and preparation) is the superior kind of magic.

Depends on the system.

only because the setting says so. it's the game designers fault. not an intrinsic fact of RPG reality.