So where are all the badass good wizards?

Dale Cooper
Atticus Finch
Marge from Fargo
Jesus
Galahad
Faramir and arguably Aragorn
Samwise
Wall e

That's just off the top of my head

...

Well written. Not a flat archetype.

Asitaka from princess mononoke (practically all ghibli proroganists desu)
Alysha from brothers karamozov (also a ton of Dostoevsky protagonists)
Sparrowhawk past the first book
Able from wizard knight
Andrei rublev
Max von sydow in the seventh seal
Title character from diary of a country priest

Superman was well written in the source of pic he posted and tons of other runs as well.

Also, Supreme by Alan Moore is another example , and one that was definitely well written

>Dale Cooper
Television
>Atticus Finch
Not a hero
>Marge from Fargo
Television
>Jesus
Conflicted. Did you somehow miss the entire point of Christiaty?
>Galahad
I think you mean Percival, but go read some Arthurian stories. They're all the bad guys. That was the point of Arthurian stories until ~1600
>Faramir and arguably Aragorn
Who ponders killing the good guys to avenge his brother?
>Samwise
Fair point
>Wall e
Movie

I don't think you understand what "written" means. You post characters from television shows and movies.

That luke Skywalker example is fucking terrible

Also you mentioned Achilles but ignored the non-morally ambiguous heroes in the same work (Hector, Patroclus)

Is this whole post a joke? Movies and television shows have writing too

Talk about moving the goalposts

>>Atticus Finch
>Not a hero
nigga what

Do you think those characters just appeared on screen? How do you think scripts and dialogues are first prepared?
I don't think you know what written means.

So you're going to discount movies and tv shows after bringing up Luke Skywalker in your original post?

>Implying that all these movie and tv characters aren't written up and thought out before filming.

>I don't think you understand what "written" means. You post characters from television shows and movies.
I can't believe there is someone who is actually this retarded

By your argument Shakespeare characters are not "written" either since they appeared in plays

So I guess Shakespeare is not a writer

>>Jesus
>Conflicted. Did you somehow miss the entire point of Christiaty?
Jesus is morally conflicted ? I thought he was the physical embodiment of God. I'm not a Christian so I'm actually confused by this

>Name one well-written hero who isn't conflicted and brooding.
Judge Dredd.

The Dresden files have it good with the power creep. I don't think Harry is much stronger in, say, Changes, than he is in Blood Rites. He has more experience, maybe a few new tricks, thats it. Post Changes, though, he's on a whole new level, and now it's the bad guys who need to pick up the pace.

> it's a fag brings up a decent idea but then utterly fails to defend himself episode
Heroes have conflict, it's why they're heroes. They aren't perfect pinnacles of human society or whatever. They just do cool stuff sometimes.

Meant Grave peril, as that's book 3, not Blood rites.

...

heard about aragorn, he is a bit reluctant but the fucking definition of lawful good and also awesome

I made this thread asking why cant we have a wizard that is a badass but still good, I got one good answer and then some idiot started rambling about me being illiterate because I was asking for a non conflicted non brooding hero.

GET BACK TO THE FUCKING POINT

You came to the wrong board if you wanted a thread to stay on topic

You can. Heck, your pic is actually related. Not because of Jace, but because of the fact that MtG has had a wide number of harass planeswalkers and spellcasters across its history, many of which trwnd towards good.

Making a good badass mage is simply a matter of them getting to mid levels without you writing them as smug and amoral. Not that hard to do.

>. I don't think Harry is much stronger in, say, Changes, than he is in Blood Rites.
I think you're actually slightly off there, because post proven guilty/white night Harry picks up the first of two significant power jumps. The shit he gets up to in small favor, and then especially turn coat and changes would have killed earlier Harry. Hellfire/soulfire is a hell of a drug, and demonreach significantly you Harry's game- to the point where Rashad and Grandpa take notice

>Portraying a conflicted character who still inevitably does the right thing makes them not a good person

Holy shit, you're probably the biggest retard I've ever met. Is your handler around? You shouldn't be on here, I know your driver's license says "28" but they shouldn't let anyone with the mental age of a fucking 10 year old on this site.

Because fantasy is defined by its cliches, and every time something breaks them - say, the good wizard being a young lightning-throwing badass - grognards whine about how it's special snowflake Mary Sue bullshit.

It's interesting because part of the common story in fantasy is a sense of weakness in the protagonist that he overcomes. Magic is also one of those things that is frequently unexplained in a story, so it's hard for a character to feel weak when people don't know the "rules" that govern his power, "why doesn't he just make a spell to solve this problem?" is a question that needs to be answered.

On top of that, magical effects can be confusing. Depending on setting a duel between mages can take many forms, whether it's a matter of powerful/tricky ambushes because every mage knows a basic teleport spell to get away, or it's a long drawn out "who can use their power more efficiently", it can be hard to properly portray in a lot of mediums. Tabletop games and videogames can probable handle that kind of thing better than most, because you have an innate understanding of the rules of the game to begin with which adds to the tension since you don't need to have all of the effects of every spell explained (because they're explained instantly when they affect the player) and/or can recognise them quickly.

Why can this wizard cast lightning bolt at varying levels of power, but the fly spell is beyond them to the point they can't even cast it at a lower level to just hover? The "wizard with lots of different spells" type probably doesn't work fantastically unless the writer drops a "character sheet" to remind the reader what spells they are capable of.

If you're fine with variations of "good" and don't mind anime/LN/Manga maybe have a look at A certain magical Index. While a lot of the mages are not necessarily good guys, quite a few have their moments of fighting with the good guys. They aren't exclusively the focus of the series though, and it's a lot of "fuck magic/psychic powers, I'm going to punch you" from the main character who basically can only do anti-magic. (it's also set in "modern" day, if that ruins it for you too).

>but is too old and weak to win the fight himself now.

Yet why is it always the opposite in fiction then, hmm?
Old men are frequently the most badass and capable.

>monomyth
Holy shit kill yourself.

The older the wizard the more powerful he is.

That is the golden rule.

To be fair, young and inexperienced wizards being better than everyone else is an anime thing.

And anime is bad, mmkay.

Anime has its fair share of old people being leagues above their younger counterparts.

>Hector
>Moral
What?

Same goes for witches

Hector is a good man on the "wrong" side of the war because you don't betray family. And if we listen to the Romans, it's not even the wrong side of the war (of course, the aeneid is the original dindu/did nothing wrong, so maybe don't listen to the Romans)

Gawain.

>wizards
ugh

>lancelot
>good guy
lmaoing at your life

t Filthy martial

Why do you insult his choices when you used Papa Smurf as an example here?

Not really meant to be a hero

I got you. Harry Potter.

There, stay rekt

Damn, I learn things everyday here.

This gif is literal cancer. Can you tumblrniggers not realize that you can post larger images on this site?

He is right, you know. Jesus even said to God "Father, why has you abandoned me?"

Jesus really had doubts about his own religion, at one point he almost turned satanic.

so he isn't that far off by saying its conflicting

Does anyone else think Harry Potter has been one of the dullest franchises in the history of movie franchises? Each episode following the boy wizard and his pals from Hogwarts Academy as they fight assorted villains has been indistinguishable from the others. Aside from the gloomy imagery, the series’ only consistency has been its lack of excitement and ineffective use of special effects, all to make magic unmagical, to make action seem inert.

Perhaps the die was cast when Rowling vetoed the idea of Spielberg directing the series; she made sure the series would never be mistaken for a work of art that meant anything to anybody?just ridiculously profitable cross-promotion for her books. The Harry Potter series might be anti-Christian (or not), but it’s certainly the anti-James Bond series in its refusal of wonder, beauty and excitement. No one wants to face that fact. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to.

>a-at least the books were good though r-right
"No!"
The writing is dreadful; the book was terrible. As I read, I noticed that every time a character went for a walk, the author wrote instead that the character "stretched his legs."

I began marking on the back of an envelope every time that phrase was repeated. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several dozen times. I was incredulous. Rowling's mind is so governed by cliches and dead metaphors that she has no other style of writing. Later I read a lavish, loving review of Harry Potter by the same Stephen King. He wrote something to the effect of, "If these kids are reading Harry Potter at 11 or 12, then when they get older they will go on to read Stephen King." And he was quite right. He was not being ironic. When you read "Harry Potter" you are, in fact, trained to read Stephen King.

No matter how you look at it, that guy doesn't know what he's on about.

But he could be getting at the fact that Jesus is also YHWH and his sacrifice is related to his own rules of morality, which some non-theologians interpret as essentially waffling since it was his rules in the first place.

This has got to be an epic pasta

You are literal cancer for complaining about something so minor.

:^)

he is literally right, you should die, tumblrite

It's not a minor thing to post before lurking. You and people like you are the reason this board is currently one of the worst on this site.

well there's this

>every time a character went for a walk, the author wrote instead that the character "stretched his legs."
This is the dumbest complaint I've heard in a while. The meanings of "go for a walk" and "stretch your legs" are connotatively different, and both are normal phrases in ordinary conversation. Why should an author avoid one of them if it's more accurate?

Are tumblrites like body snatchers?

You people are fuckin' paranoid.

Keep digging that hole deeper, you fucking retard. Why are you even here, anyway?

I bet your blood vessels are bursting through your skin.

>Be a retard
>Get called out
>Get on damage control

Dumb nigger

I'm pretty sure the argument is that it shouldn't be the same phrase every time, you should mix it up

If the argument was that then why didn't he say so to begin with?

Oh man, you're just precious.

it's common advice for writers who make dull stories

I knew you tumblr types were toothles retards, but is this the best you can post? You must feel real proud of winning this argument in your head.

Drop generic fantasy, go for urban fantasy - after you'll wade through crap of supernatural romance, you'll find plenty of modern occultists ready to wreck shit without being retardedly overpowered, often with (at least for me) a bonus themes of noir and conspiracy. Though it has to be pointed out that to make it believable they are rarely high-fantasy level strong, more like "I don't need a rocket launcher to take down a building" strong.

Since people throw book titles around:
Dresden Files was mentioned. Kinda a classics and that's why I'll mention it myself again.
There's plenty of powerful characters in Alex Verus, Rivers of London, Laundry Files, Peter Grant and Twenty Palaces series (though rarely the main character, at least not in the beginning) but only in background.
Matthew Swift series is hard to judge - in the beginning it seems to be mostly about subtle, "there is no spoon" mages, but then it turns out that main character is actually possessed by a modern spirit powerhouse. It's better than it sounds.

If you need more generic fantasy, Wheel of Time series has plenty of Jedi-styled but less physical and more "farting fire and lighting" kind of mage-o-psychics. Great, epic series, could easily take out rather popular nowadays ASOIAF
Raymond Feist made classic heroic fantasy series about Krondor and other places in the same universe, with plenty of strong spellcasters (though some need quite some time to grow to power).
Codex alera series (also by Butcher - author of Dresden Files) is more like "Ancient Roman Legionairies Fucked Pokemon and X-men" but again, much better than this description would suggest.
That should be enough for now, I could throw quite many more titles but since I don't know your taste and you don't know mine, this will be enough.

Just what is it you think I'm trying to win?

>urban fantasy
Dumb superheroposter

And I guess I'll also mention since it's pretty awesome, but needs promo:
Multiverse Series by Weber is more like political and military fiction, about two dimension-hopping human civilizations that meet up and fuck up first contact, going to war - one is psychic with primitive but functional firearms, the other is mages with late-medieval stuff. Expect plenty of badassery though, with stuff like augmented, linked dragons providing magical HUD for their pilots and taking a role of IRL jet fighters, battle mages and enchanters being regular part of some military squads, together with maneuvers of the kind of officers telepathically-coordinating machinegun crews and psychically-target painting enemies for artillery strikes.

Check the titles next time before posting, user to see whether they're about mages or really superheroes. Right now you make yourself come off as a clueless idiot.

> modern occultists ready to wreck shit without being retardedly overpowered
>Magic in a modern day setting
>Not retardedly overpowered

Hahahaha. Not only that but the concept of magic in a modern day setting only works when people either are very aware of it. Or there is some limitation on why the military can't be hiring mages to do shit like curse everyone in a war.

>swords in a modern day setting
>not retardedly overpowered

Hahahaha. Not only that but the concept of swords in a modern day setting only works when people either are very aware of it. Or there is some limitation on why the military can't be hiring warriors to do shit like stab everyone in a war.

Elric of Melnibone is crying in a corner at this. Not including the fact all the young and inexperienced wizards in anime tend to be like in slayers or some shit. And so are extremely rare prodigies that only show up in a generation.

>Veeky Forums is one of the worst boards on the site
You don't get out much, do you? Give /tv/ a try.

There is a pretty big difference between using swords in a modern day setting vs some random Wicca college student being able to kill someone from a thousand miles away by dancing nude.

Logically speaking unless there is a method to of self correction that stops people from doing so then given any thousand year old time frame the people that would use magic military wise would win any conflict which would rapidly build up a military doctrine based around how to maximize use of magic. Which makes the urban fantasy stories pretty shitty due to how logically incoherent the idea is.

Elric isn't exactly inexperienced.

You should also watch a bit more anime and see for yourself just how annoying child wizards can be.

>Elric isn't exactly inexperienced.

He isn't exactly old either. He is far bellow the 80+ people tend to go for.

>You should also watch a bit more anime and see for yourself just how annoying child wizards can be.

The big thing is that archetype isn't that rare in fantasy fiction. I've always viewed it more like one of those child surgeons we have in the modern day. I don't mind the concept so much as how shitty people execute it.

Raistlin Majere was pretty damn young too, so even in books for young plebs, it's not an anime thing.

>kill someone from a thousand miles away by dancing nude
>an ability that literally every magic system has
Have you been so bitterly poisoned by fighter vs mage shitstorm threads that you can no longer conceive of magic not being easy and omnipotent?

/tv/ really isn't that bad

>some random Wicca college student being able to kill someone from a thousand miles away by dancing nude.
Laws of Sympathy?

Old wizards could be anywhere between 50 and 100+

Raistlin was at his peak in his fifties. He was also a prodigy.

>The big thing is that archetype isn't that rare in fantasy fiction

That's precisely why it annoys a lot of people. Unless the child is -that- good at what he/she does, it just screams "escapism! look at my fantasy" instead of coherent storytelling.

Reasons should be given for such talent.

Crap, totally forgot about the fires of creation. But it's just an increase in his fire magic, iirc.
And Demonreach is situational, he can't tap into the well whenever he pleases. If he could, it would be a gamebreaker. So far, he could use it two or three times.

1984 is the most overrated book in popular lit, and putting it above BNW is particularly egregious.

Les Mis is a better performed than read. Some people would say that's precisely why it's so important, but eh. Probably shouldn't be up top.

While the moral in Gatsby is good and more important than ever, it's kinda boring as hell to read. Also, most people miss the moral entirely.

Withering heights is so comfy. Would bump up one.

I haven't read all of Harry Potter, but I think most people would recognize it's important mainly as a kid's gateway to reading in general, no?

40k

>some random Wicca college student being able to kill someone from a thousand miles away by dancing nude
And what the fucking difference that is compared to typical magic in typical "regular" fantasy? In most high fantasy magic is much more powerful than in typical urban fantasy with magical attacks over thousand miles being a normal, respectable choice (just not often used because of reasons of plot and actual challenge - in all kinds of books, urban fantasy included), so the point of it being relatively "not overpowered" stands.

>frodo
>the hero
>not sam

>the good wizards are old kindly dudes with gigantic beards and a sort of paternal attitude
those guys are awesome though

Sure they are, but wizards in the making is where it's at. You can't have much character development if you are a few hundred if not thousand years old, have shittons of life and magic experience, etc etc. It makes for a boring main character.