/cvmg/ - Casters Vs Martials General

>pick the mundane fighting man whose only skill is hitting things very hard with sharp sticks
>complain that you can't do all the cool stuff that the magic man can do

What did martialfags mean by this?

It means you're a fucking fag who has a shit life, having nothing to do but to shitpost on Veeky Forums with shitty reposts.

I would take three quest threads, one with furrfags posting their own homeade fart porn, and a filename thread over another one of these shit threads. I'm not joking.

I second this motion.

Thirded.

Give us porn back too while there.

I accept that casters are bound to have more options, but the fighting man has no recourse as long as initiative and spellcasting works the way that it does.

1e gets it right by adding spellcasting time onto the initiative score.

You fundamentally misunderstand the problem. Both casters and martials are presented as equally viable options when they aren't. The system outright lies to you, and then you get told to suck it up by casterfags when you make the wrong choice.

can't you spot bait when you see it you retard

I'm sorry. I can't help it. I just like discussing this type of thing because the people defending it are hilariously delusional.

They are equally viable options in every edition except for 3.PF

Note that while they are equally viable, casters will always have more options due to the fact that magic can accomplish almost anything whilst martials can only perform feats of physical prowess.

As soon as you point this out, martialfags go ballistic.

It would at least be nice if martial characters had any other worthwhile options than hitting a guy a bit harder, or hitting a couple of guys at once.

Like what?

What abilities do you want martials to have beyond hitting people?

Do you want martials to be able to teleport, read minds, summon monsters, stop time, levitate?

At what point do they just become casters with swords?

>What abilities do you want martials to have beyond hitting people?
Shooting fireballs.
>Do you want martials to be able to teleport, read minds, summon monsters, stop time, levitate?
Yes.
>At what point do they just become casters with swords?
Just ditch the sword, you won't need it.

Fourthed. Even throw in some ponies, at least they can make a decent game.

You troll but there are plenty of people who roll fighters and then complain that they can't cast spells.

I Wayne this motion.

Alright folks, Namefag is in the thread. This thread is now /cancer/ and should be evacuated immediately. I will be continually posting until the thread is absolutely unbearable. Sage.

Sorry user, you made your bed of shitposts, now you have to sleep in it.
This is what happens when you cave to people who made a decade long hobby out of shitposting.

Fuck off back to /qst/ thanks, no one cares how salty you feel.

>All who predicted this happening must be questfags
>Only questfags are upset about board quality dipping as a result of caving to shitposters
Like, I get you are all asspained about the long quest contention, and are used to arguing about this for hours on end, but it's really obvious that if you cave to people who have a hobby of shitposting, they're not going to stop shitposting.

>Be me
>Running a game of Mutants and Masterminds 3e in a fantasy setting
>Both "martial" characters are capable of crazy shit like dealing damage to enemies that hit them with explosive runes, taking out an entire swarm of enemies with a flying hammer, all unnecessary to dig dungeons through for because said equipment is a part of their character.
>The elemental summoner's life was saved from a life ending crit thanks to the tanky martial's advantage Interpose, taking the attack hit on reaction in place.
>Everyone is having a fucking blast

Feels good to play a system that allows fun.

Quests belong back on Veeky Forums, and all other boards as well. And I'm not saying that just because a cancerous namefag promoting quests helps make this thread more delectable. Sage.

>play a game where everyone is basically a caster
>martialcucks don't complain

This is one of the reasons why martialcucks like 4e. Because every class works like casters.

...

This is my favorite meme, please never stop posting.

Why do newfags use the word cuck, anyway?
We solved that on Veeky Forums long ago.
Is it just a lack of lurking? Or plain trolling?

Because thinking 'interesting abilities = being a spellcaster' is a bit of D&D induced brain damage. Almost no other systems fall into the same stupid trap.

The other problem with most martials is that instead of class giving them competence in all martial styles and then loading them up with nice things on top of that they get to spend a ton of resources to get even one combat style going.

Like you need 6 levels of fighter to get somewhat decent at doing one thing. An each next style takes around the same number of levels (optimisation allows to cut it to around 4 levels). So at best at level 20 you have 5 neat tricks that are worth using. At best. And you probably could not pull it off with melee and ranged weapons at the same time.

Fighter should have started with competence in all combat styles that would be enough to fight and win against level appropriate monsters. And every his class feature and feat should have allowed him to do more.

>it's another "martials need to become demigods to compete with casters" episode

Protip:
All famous casters were demigods.

>frogs
>cucks
Can't tell if /pol/ or someone pretending to be /pol/

There are plenty of technically completely mundane knights and warriors in that image too. People did not stop to think "yeah but what does this mean for the WIZARDS" when telling myths and legends

It's probably the same guy who has been making these threads for the past week

Maybe through in a Russ thread too.

seeWhat "interesting abilities" do you want martials to have apart from hiting things with their sword?

>Fighter should have started with competence in all combat styles that would be enough to fight and win against level appropriate monsters
I disagree. Not because I don't want fighters to be stronger but because that just makes them even more boring.

There should be distinctions between different types of fighters like heavily armored knights, graceful fencers, axe-wielding barbarians, etc...

Man, Veeky Forums has really turned to shit since quests left.
I don't want to blame it on the lack of questfags, but jesus christ you people, pull it the hell together or you're going to prove them right.

I like this way of doubling down on the bait

Gestalt martial characters could almost fix this in 3.5, if the classes picked had good synergies. Duelist/Rogue and Barb/Rogue were never good enough to compete with Sorcs and CoDzilla, but they could hang around with Tier 3 casters like Warlocks and Beguilers and not get outshone.

>What "interesting abilities" do you want martials to have apart from hitting things with their sword?
Leading armies.
Ruling kingdoms.

It's just weird to see the shocking increase in shitposting since the whole quest removal thing.

What's preventing martials from doing this right now?

Unless you mean gaining followers like in OD&D?

And there would be. Just not like now when trying to use any weapon beyond The One is almost suicide.

Instead it would be the difference between a professional and a master. Professional can reliably do the work but he may be sometimes sloppy and overall the result while up to standards is not ideal. Master does the same work and it is a thing of beauty with a cherry on top.

There is some classes that care less about what they use, but even they need optimisation to do it reliably.

No skills, no rules, no abilities.

It was exactly the same. It's been almost a year, get better bait

Yeah, gestalt martials is somewhere on par with ToB or even a little better if you know what you are doing.

How is this shitposting?

We're actually discussing an important aspect of D&D which is a traditional game.

If you don't like it go back to your respective generals.

Movement based abilities, buffs, debuffs, conditions, the ability to do special damage or ignore certain kinds of defences.

Just, y'know, abilities. Things to do. Actual choices to make other than 'I attack'.

I don't see why you're going into denial over this.

This whole thread is shitposting. It's a fact of the debate. Nobody is going to change their mind, the only people posting here are just too stupid to realise that. Me included.

Shitposting is up on a scale of weeks.
Quests have been gone for many months.
The two are unrelated.

He's in denial because what you're asserting is not true. The split with /qst/ happened in September of 2016. This thread, or something very close to it, has been reposted daily since February of 2016. You cannot blame this on the lack of quest threads.

Shitposting sort of steadily went up after the quest removal though, and then it spiked again with the /pol/ invasion, and it has never gone back down to pre-quest-removal levels.

I don't see what denying this accomplishes. Like, what is the point of that cognitive dissonance?

[Supercalafragalistic]

Ohhhhhh I am a young Shitposter
I've got nothing left to say
But since I am a Shitposter
I'll say it anyway.

Now if you pay attention to me
I'll never go away!
Oh, I am a young Shitposter
And this is what I say:

Of female rights and male abuse
I'll set the board arage
And Quests and General Threads accuse
Of ruining the first page

And impotent martial power
I'll gloat towards as a mage
Oh, I am a young Shitposter
I'll never go away!

Now, of Gurps and D&D shitposting
There's a never-ending supply
And though you'll wish it upon me
I'll never ever die

So pack your bags and leave the board
I've made it go to Shit!
I am a young Shitposter
I'll never ever quit!

Those don't really seem like martial abilities.

Buffs and debuffs are more of a Cleric/Warlock thing.

It comes back to the whole "why not just roll a caster" argument since you seem to want to do things that casters do rather than hit things with your sword which is what martials do.

>this thread, or something close to it
See, and here you're purposefully having cognitive dissonance. Martial and caster fights have happened for all of Veeky Forums, sure, but never have they been so brazenly shitposts as they are now.
Just because shitposting did exist in the past doesn't mean it hasn't gotten worse.

>Hitting someone with a sword can't debuff them

This is what casterfags actually believe

Nah, it's been pretty solidly up for months now. At -least- since the election. There's no denying that while maintaining credibility.

How can it debuff them?

Unless you mean reducing their movement speed by cutting off their legs. But that only works against humanoids.

He's baiting.

A blow to the head giving someone a Dazed or Stunned type condition. A clever blow giving a temporary penalty to attack rolls as you mess with their limbs or whatever. It only takes a tiny bit of thought to see just how many things are possible within the purview of 'I hit things with my sword', despite casterfags insistence it only ever use the most simple and basic mechanics possible.

Honestly, all of this is probably a ploy to try to get this kind of discussion banned even when it's legitimate. This is a thing that happened to all content that was removed from Veeky Forums over its entire history.

>never have they been so brazenly shitposts as they are now
Completely unsubstantiated. Besides, the real reason you're shitposting about this is to false flag about questfags

If you just ignored these threads they'd go away.

Cut legs, hands, gouge eyes, crush trachea, cut abdomen open spilling guts, break limbs, concussions, damage to critical ligaments and tendons. And so on.

If it is good riddance. I don't remember ever seeing a casters vs martials shitpost and thinking "gee, we need more of these threads in Veeky Forums"

>severed tendons limit range of motion
>broken limbs impair movement
>cut muscles reducing strength
>blood loss impairing consciousness, for blurred vision, reduced intelligence and blackouts
>how can damage debuff??

user...

I mean if you're swinging your sword at someone's head then you're generally trying to kill them, not just stun them.

No matter how you look at it, martials' abilities all come down to "I swing my weapon to do physical damage to my opponent".

Nah, just enjoying that I totally called this would happen, and what do you know, it's happening.
I'm not really all that shocked you're denying it though, it's part of the life of a cassandra.

>No matter how you look at it, martials' abilities all come down to "I swing my weapon to do physical damage to my opponent".

This is what casterfags actually believe

>No matter how you look at it, martials' abilities all come down to "I swing my weapon to do physical damage to my opponent".

what about rogues?

You either use HP as it is and add conditions or you go the realistic route. And anyone without training and armor becomes a client of gravedigger after single hit.

You sort of lose some credibility if you are actually trying to claim this shit isn't a newer, more awful development.
I support people who want to have the discussion, even if I don't want to participate in it myself. It's Veeky Forums related and a thing people will always bitch about.
I just don't appreciate people fake-bitching about it like the OP. We don't need fakers to go into the pit of people already bitching unironically.

Here's one last (You) for the road

No, I'm purposefully speaking with precision. Yes, martial and caster fights have happened all throughout Veeky Forums, no, the shitposts have not suddenly get more blatant in the last half year. It was February of 2016 or thereabouts that one faggot or collection of faggots started making a slew of threads with headers like "Should martials be allowed?" or whatever. It was concurrent with the trend of posting that opening image of a red d20 and the caption "The moment that you realized d20 was shit", and the revival of the "Whatever happened to classic fantasy? Nobody wants to play humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings any more..." copypasta.

Just because you weren't paying attention when the problem arose doesn't make it a recent problem.

Well, see you later I guess. It's not like you denying or not denying the board's problems will change anything, anyhoo. It's just nice to be right.

You seem to not recognize that escalation exists.
This will make any conversation difficult.

Super channer, fag, autistic XP-hunter, shitposter.

...

>implying that the posters won't repeatedly shitpost int he threads to make them last longer
You seem to have an distorted view ofn how dedicated shitposters are.

Antiquest shitposters worked for 8 years to get quests removed. That's 8 years of dedicated shitposting to the detriment of a group of people who were having badwrongfun. This is just a more subtle anti D&D type of shitposting and they're no less dedicated, and you can tell by the 10 years of anti D&D shitposting.

So, an after image dodge, the concept of yomi, spirit animals or guides, lightning reflexes or bullet time, and something something meditation. While not exactly those things, fighters in various media have been able to do similar things without magic, maybe with chi or spiritual energy sure, but still without magic.
Maybe some more super human options would be neat to compare to actual magic.

Where did we get such dedicated shitposters, anyway?
How do we even make them stop? I mean, they will literally keep shitposting with no benefit for decades.

>with no benefit
They got what they wanted. The mods caved in once, now it's only a matter of time before they do it again.

>Antiquest shitposters worked for 8 years to get quests removed.
hell of a persecution complex you're rocking there senpai

Okay, they'll keep shitposting for like seven years with no benefit.
Nah, that part is plain on the archive record. Earliest instances of antiquest shitposters turned up around there. I am not sure which quest we were checking that in though. Rubyquest?

And you blithely asserting that the escalation happened quite recently. What I'm saying, Mr. Rose Tinted Glasses, is that the escalation happened in late winter of 2016 and this has been the status quo since spring of 2016.

Just comb the world records and set the expectations for martials in such a way that around level 6 they should be able to beat any of the records they want to beat. Someone who is going for strength? At level 6 he should be stronger than any strong man in the world. Someone is going for speed? Faster. And so on.

Knock

>he doesn't even recognize the permanent raise in default shitposting levels that happened after the election
I mean, I know you are trying to cover your ass here, but come on.

It was right and good for quests to move to a different board so that Veeky Forums could be for discussion again.

It is right and good that D&D be decried for its design philosophy in regards to magic.

This is not shitposting, this is just you being wrong. Now close the thread.

creates a loud noise in 5e and it's a bit of a waste of a slot if you're somewhere with a lot of locked objects or multiple locks per dor

>Shitposting is OK if I do it
I will never understand you lifetime-shitposters.

Now Weeaboos especially
Are fun to poke with a stick
They claim the site's their property
And arguing with them's like with a brick.

Their Smug Loli Greentexts
Phase me not even one lick!
Oh I am a young Shitposter
I'll fuck with you 'til you're sick!

Fetish-posting's quite some fun
It puts posters in a bind
On whether or not to join in
Though it ruined those who like to Path-find

But greenskins, shortstacks and armor
Get the board all hard
And thus another thread is ruined
Since we're horny as a bard!

Next we have Numenera
Which has me in quite a fit
It's spammed and posted consistently
Though the OP would never suggest it.

The threads are almost as bad as D&D
Though they're not posted quite as often

Oh, Super channer, fag, autistic XP-hunter, shitposter.

It was Rubyquest.

>chalking the loss of his imagined golden age to another boogeyman
It's odd you haven't blamed summer yet. Usually that's the first scapegoat you nostalgiafags turn to when bemoaning the fall of your secret internet clubhouse.

So, Veeky Forums seems to be dying the same way as /v/ did.
What can be done about it?
What did people who liked videogames do when /v/ turned shit?
I heard that there was great success shipping all the actual discussion to a new board, and leaving the shitposters to rot.

>Not only not noticing, but denying it
That explains so much.

Did you not notice the incredible spike in shitpostfrogs and "cuck" nonsense?
I mean, Veeky Forums solved cuck long ago, and we went for a pleasant age without it.

Does any DM that isn't a shit head actually have a problem with caster vs martial shit?

Stop giving your player characters overpowered spells. Shit like teleport, fly, dimension door are too powerful and break the campaign. Even spells like Sleep are usually way too good in context, even with daily limits.

Rewrite your spells to be more reasonable and avoid linear spell scaling with level.

1) no one cares about your plight
2) constant shitposting followed immediately by questshilling makes is making it reeeeeal obvious who's doing the shitposting

I like how you immediately attempt to attack my character when I bring up that shitposters will literally keep it up for decades.
I also like how you are dead set on blaming shitposting on the guys who got shitposted at instead of the guys who have a confirmed eight year history of shitposting.

You might as well learn a couple of other systems, will take less time than fixing 3.PF