How did he feel about the Primarchs that joined him? Was he disappointed in the turn out or was it what he expected?

Magnus hates everyone

Yeah, in The Siege of Holy Terra by William King, Magnus is there personally leading his sorcerers, as are Angron and Mortarion. IDK if Fulgrim was there but the Emperors Children were basically useless and focused on soft targets anyway

Wait I remember now, Fulgrim and the EC's were there. But again, spent most of their time terrorizing the city rather than sieging the palace after the initial landing

Magnus not immediately trying to choke Horus out upon first meeting him post-prospero is one if the things that's always bothered me. In fact I'm pretty sure Magnus has never confronted Horus about it at all the fluff.

Like, I get that Magnus is pissed at the Emperor and to a certain extent Russ, but he KNOWS Horus manipulated events in order to either corrupt Magnus or at least take him out of the fight, if there is never any sense of animosity toward Horus that we see. No sense of resentment.

>We're supposed to believe that the Heresy was down-to-the-wire civil war with the winner being anyones' guess, but Horus really did get fucked in terms of team-stacking.
It really was though. The traitors almost succeeded and would have won if Horus wasn't killed by the Emperor or his forces didn't fall apart afterwards. It helps that the Raven Guard, Salamanders, Ultramarines, and to a lesser extent Dark Angels and Iron Hands didn't really participate in the Heresy at all. They were either outright destroyed or trapped behind the ruinstorm doing their own thing.

Magnus entire arc in the BL novels is a shit show because A Thousand Sons was written before things were properly figured out. This means that there are a tonne of inconsistencies and skub that surround the legion.

It doesnt help that they keep giving the Magnus/TSons books to authors who dont like them. Thats how you get the Crimson King which is just a retelling of French's novels.

Its the plot hole created by BL retcon, old fluff before this was the Emperor ordering Russ to capture him and Russ convincing Emps to order the death of Magnus.

What?

No. It was ALWAYS Horus tricking Russ.

I dont do a lot of HH reading (aka none at all) but my buddy was telling me that Dorn was dared to fill a giant ditch with his own men so he could punch a traitor primarch in the face in the fort he'd built. Only when he finally got in there the traitor primarch wasn't there and that fort was a bomb. Doesn't sound like a pinnacle of humanity genius there.

This falls under the bigger issue with BL where they can't seemed to be bothered with making a simple outline to keep consistency and instead opt to let the authors do whatever they want and put their own personal issues into a novel.

The initial reason for Horus' mano e mano duel with the Emperor was reinforcements from the unengaged legions arriving in a day or two, which Horus knew would stall his already bogged down siege and completely overwhelm him. The Emperor had no idea, but if he had just sat and waited a little longer, salvation would have come

Newfag.

I'd like to think it was post heresy blind rage that lead Dorn to making this decision, basically that part of Dorn that the Black Templars take after.

He was bitter that he wound up with the autists and retards, to the point that a complete loser like Mortarion wound up his go-to guy simply because he actually listened to him and didn't do obviously stupid shit for no reason.

Yes, he was persuaded Magnus was the traitor - and was SENT TO APPREHEND HIM. NOT DESTROY PROSPERO

>and was SENT TO APPREHEND HIM. NOT DESTROY PROSPERO
Not in the old lore champ.

Thats why Magnus/Russ threads are so skub. It's been retconned so many times people come at it form different angles.

That would have to be really old lore cause this goes back to like 4th edition

Not that we need more Veeky Forums alternate time lines, but a bit if writefaggotry where Magnus goes and fights Boris as soon as he recovers from Prosperous would be cool.
Have this instead of him going all chaos emotionally, he just takes his full anger out because on him and sees how it goes.
"look what you made me do and look what happened to everything I loved because of it."

>Not being around for second edition
Just joking mate. Mind you this is printed in other recent GW material

Yeah Dorn basically went insane with guilt and despair after the Emperor was killed and charged into Perturabo's trap. He was one of the more competent Primarchs until then though.

You don't use an attack dog to play fetch. He'll rip the stick to shreds

Russ was a good boy he dindu nuffin wrong he just wasn't raised and trained properly

Horus was killed by the Emperor because they fought. They fought because Horus baited the Emperor into fighting him. Horus baited the Emperor into fighting him because he had run out of time in sieging the palace and knew that he was boned if the Wolves, UM and DA got there and he hadn't won yet.

Despite ALL the massive advantages Horus had throughout the Heresy in manpower, logistics and positioning, in the end he was still forced to make a desperate gamble to turn the tide of a battle he was slowly losing- and he still lost.

'There are no Wolves on Fenris' is still the best insult in the series IMO.

A lot of people think its Ferrus against Lorgar but thats too easy a target.

>SENT TO APPREHEND HIM. NOT DESTROY PROSPERO

That bit of fluff has Russ mustering his legion FOR WAR! Not police action, not a meeting of brothers to apprehend someone but to wage war on Magnus and his legion, Prospero be damned.

Yeah, but it was still a close thing. Terra was ridiculously well fortified and, as previously mentioned, Horus's forces were subpar.

Yeah, the Crimson King is really bad.

The way I see it, Magnus has just given up. Like, he knows he's been bamboozled, and there's literally nothing left for him to do. I don't know about the shard shit, but the fact is that on the grand scale of things, he's stuck on the side of Horus.

Horus would have fucked him. The Warp itself would have turned against Magnus. Basically, he would have got his ass kicked.

>Magnus has just given up.
Its not Magnus thats given up it the BL authors. No matter what shit they put out B&C lap it up.

>B&C lap it up
Laurie Goulding and John French said in an interview that B&C were too critical of BL and that its community was shit.

I really feel like more companies need to put a lid on their employees communicating with the community.

Seems almost counter-intuitive, but when has it ever done a company good to talk shit about fans they don't like? It didn't help EA games, it didn't help Karen Traviss and it sure as fuck isn't helping ADB and all the other retards who go on internet forums to "defend their honor". Jesus, just shut the fuck up and let your writing speak for itself.

Tahts because we go over their and shitpost.

I know I did till I got banned.

Once upon a time that was standard, sadly social media has made communication instant and hard to contain

But yeah, companies need to get a handle on not letting anyone but PR talk to fans

ADB in particular gets really worked out shape online. He's written angry triggered walls of text numerous times. Communicating with the community is good but there's no point in arguing with someone who didn't like your book. It just makes him look petty.

>ADB in particular gets really worked out shape online. He's written angry triggered walls of text numerous times.

Show examples.

>Yeah, but it was still a close thing.

When you consider all the additional HH fluff which has been added since, it was ridiculously and hilariously a foregone conclusion from the very beginning sans MUH TRAP CARD. Then again, the failure of the Siege of Terra can be primarily attributed to

>and then everyone stopped listening to Horus after the first 30 minutes and did their own thing

Hell, the White Scars even left the fortress walls to chase themselves some EC rapists and Horus and Perty still couldn't breach the walls on Dorn's watch.

I have personally argued with him on dakka. I wish I could find the thread. His user wasn't just his name, it was like, "something"-clown.

>Perty still couldn't breach the walls on Dorn's watch
Pert busted open the palace then fucked off like Fulgrim and the EC.

Go look at the Master of Mankind thread. It got shut down multiple times when everyone called him out on his shit.

Nah, best line is the Khan to Fulgrim.

>"I heard from a contact on Mars, Jaghatai, that you do strange things to your ships."
>"I heard from a contact that you do strange things to your warriors."

Master of Mankind was fine. People got way too triggered by it.
>waaaah this 40,000 godlike being doesn't love his Primarchs like a regular father
>waaaah the situation is bleak and hopeless
This is Warhammer. What do they want? GI Joe? Oh wait, that's about the level current 40k lore is at so I take it back.

...

Point of order, 40k is bleak and hopeless because of the failure of the great crusade

Like if you start off there, there isn't any narrative journey

That's the problem with having a dozen different authors though

>Like if you start off there, there isn't any narrative journey
It didn't start there. Master of Mankind was book 41. There were forty (40!) novels leading up to that point. The Horus Heresy series is all about why shit is fucked and will always be fucked.

Tzeentch always plans against himself. No matter what, he always ends up ahead.

Magnus was more bitter about the Emperor okay'ing the attack in the first place and signed up with Horus as the only real option left- this dates back to Collected visions too.

The Horus Heresy isnt a tragedy if Emps wasnt invested in the Primarchs. And it directly retcons DECADES of earlier writing.

>None had ever seen such a dreadful apparition, the true heart of a being so mighty that it could only beat while encased in super-engineered flesh.
>The Emperor alone recognised this rapturous angel, and his heart broke to see it.
> “Magnus,” he said.
>“Father,” replied Magnus.
>Their minds met, and in that moment of frozen connection the galaxy changed forever.

...

The most interesting thing about that convo is how thin-skinned Fulgrim was the whole time.

You'd think that for a Bantz master he'd be able to handle it a little better.

The issue is not that he doesn't love them it's that it retconned him loving him. How is the final confrontation with Horus going to go now that he has no reason to hold back?

I just want to blow a shit ton of money at this point buying GW stock so I can go in and fucking tell these shitbirds how real publishing houses deal with multi-author series. I mean there's Doctor Who bad, and then there's BL bad. I understand how you might want to go deeper into it than King did, but you can still use his overall themes without copying his words.

Fulgrim was always kind of stuck up though. He can dish it out, but he can't take it. He completely loses his shit when Rowboat manages to land a hit on him in Dark Imperium too, bitching about how nobody is allowed to insult him like that.

What's the deal with the webway project?

I thought it was a new ish retcon to explain Emps going nuts on Magnus. Has it always been part of the fluff?

Khan absolutely annihilates Mortarion.

>You never hid what you wanted. I can guess how you thought it would go. First hobble the sorcerers. Silence the witches. Drive them out and rule passes to the uncorrupted. The healthy. That was your great project. You even TOLD me of it, that day on Ullanor. I thought back then they were empty threats but I should have known. You do not make empty threats... But it has gone wrong hasn't it? You have completed your great mission but there are more sorcerers than ever. Horus has sponsored them, Lorgar has shown them new tricks. If Magnus has not already made up his mind then he soon will and then you will be surrounded. You've destroyed the Librarius only to find the witches are now untrammelled. They played you well. You've done their work for them and soon you will be dragged into it yourself, as warp-sick as they are.

The Horus Heresy is a tragedy because it destroyed the hope of a bright future for humanity not because sons turned on their father.

They're going to have chaosed-up Horus be able to legitimately take on the Emperor.

>The Horus Heresy series is all about why shit is fucked

Chaos is why shit is fucked. That story has been the same since the beginning. Everything else is basically a literary circus, which is where Forgeworld comes in.

People say (now) that its the Emperor's fault for being blind or devoid of humane characteristics, but in truth the Emperor (was) merely a supermortal trying to achieve the impossible and couldn't possibly achieve the best possible outcome every second of every day.

People say its some other traitor's fault for the heresy, but they were tempted, coaxed, or bought by the Ruinous Powers through some dark bargain - which all goes back to Chaos constantly fucking with mankind.

People say its actually politics and secrets of the day, but again thats all just spice and flavor on what was once the flatbread of 40k lore.

No, HH lore should be about all the struggles and tales of heroism and battles which occurred during this time period. These tales help us better envision and characterize the heroes, villains, and victims of this era. This is why we on Veeky Forums often muse that 'BL doesn't count, only the FW black books count' because those collections read more or less like military history books.

Why is the Khan so fucking based?

Oh shit they actually fight on DI?

Here let me explain it to you.

>They're going to have chaosed-up Horus be able to legitimately take on the Emperor.
Then how does he destroy Horus' soul if Horus was able to take him on, either the Emperor is holding back or Horus kills him because he is more powerful?

>No matter what, he always ends up ahead.

No, that's Ferrus.

Because Chris Wraight is a good writer and he's had a complete monopoly on Khan's characterization in the series so far.

Its funny how in Dark Millenium, Mortarion basically embraces everything hes come to hate - sorcery, mutation, working with Typhon, being someone else's bitch, keeping dictator daddy company, etc.

Yeah, we see what actually happened in the fight that left Guilliman in a stasis field.

Fulgrim absolutely fucks him up minus maybe one or two hits total, Guilliman knows by the third hit that nah, he's gonna fucking lose (after Fulgrim completely outplayed him strategically and tactically too) and most of the 1st + 2nd companies of the Ultramarines have to spit themselves on Fulgrim's swords and daemon primarch powers just to buy enough time to get Guilliman away safely after Fulgrim gives him a mortal wound, literally buying time to escape with their lives. Guilliman actually dies, but he senses a "golden light" in the Warp that gives him just enough of a push back to the realm of the living that he could be put into stasis, implied to be the Emperor saving him.

>Then how does he destroy Horus' soul if Horus was able to take him on
Ollanius Pious is heading to Terra with a sword that can kill gods. I think he's going to wound Horus on the Vengeful Spirit and give the Emperor an opening.

Kinda. It's pretty short. It's more 'Guilliman's last moments before the deep freeze'.

>not because sons turned on their father.

That retcon of the battle was such total bullshit. It makes Guilliman look like a fucking idiot, completely unable to wage a war outside of Legion strength.

Well to be fair, it's Fulgrim, who was always super autist duelist. Now backed up by Chaos and with like six arms and a cock that shoots acid

For a fellow who ascended to daemonhood and knows full well he could manhandle the fuck out of normal BobbyG, he sure did love to talk his ass off.

>Ollanius Pious
Out of all retcons him being a perpetual was the worst, and probably misses the point the most too.

Guilliman being an idiot who stole all his best ideas from the real strategists isn't news.

But it was Fulgrim with his shattered legion, who nevertheless leads Guilliman on a wild goose chase with the equivalent of the Battlestar Galactica fleet and nevertheless devastates the loyalist fleet, sends Guilliman to the verge of death, and practically ambushes and annihilates 1st and 2nd companies. Oh, and then they retreated into the Warp because they were being hunted down by something?

I think he goes by "A Dead Blue Clown" there.

Seeing ADB more or less run Black Library makes me yearn for the days of Matt Ward. If those pro-Chaos faggots over at BL keep ruining HH like this, I'll use a monkey's paw wish just to have Matt Ward take over 40k codex lore again so he can write as de facto truth

>oh and all this previously written HH shit was actually propaganda the truth is Horus and the traitors are faggots and the loyalists are totally pure and awesome also all the Primarchs hated Guilliman because he was so smart but he didn't need their friendship cuz all the Imperial citizens in the Imperium were his friends

No, it's more like Magnus ran up and accidentally knocked the Emperor off his bike.

It's almost like the codex astartes was a mistake

He didn't really like the Ultramarines as a chapter anyway. He wanted the good old days of legions and Crusading.

That is how you have a good primarch, that is kind of why i want him to be pretty much ignored.

You were dropped on your head quite a bit, weren't you?

>it's a loyalistfag gets triggered when someone portrays traitors with some depth instead of writing cartoon morning villains

The joke is that the Emperor saw his sons as tools.

Also your post reminded me of this.

The best insult of the series is when angron basically tell girlyman that he's daddy's favorite and never had to work hard (compared to angron) his whole life.

>It's Carnac
Literally no one else likes all this disgusting Chaos wank, not even a Black Legion player like me.

Angron got fucking told and I have no idea how you think he came out positively from that encounter.

Angron made a speech and rowboat said "well your still a slave! Ha! I'm better!"

He was also going bonkers and complaining about it to Ferrus.

youtube.com/watch?v=44SJ81X0NfQ

>Chaos wank
ADB's stories never try to justify the traitor's action just explain their motivations. Everyone is the hero of their own story. It's boring if everyone is just mindlessly evil for no reason.
>someone disagrees with me he must be Carnac

No he said
>Wow what a bitch
>Learn to take responsibly for your actions like an adult
>Meanwhile Angron went
>REEEEEEEEEEEE

>entire speech negated by Guilliman calling him a bitch
>somehow wins the argument

>I had a hard life so it's okay for me to butcher billions of people and doom humanity forever
>this is what Angron really believes

>ADB's stories never try to justify the traitor's action just explain their motivations.
ADB retconned preexisting lore to make the Emperor a ridiculous cruel and irrational sociopath solely so his baby-eating space terrorists don't look as bad. And on top of all of that made the actions of all loyalist and traitor Astartes completely pointless, because "lol Chaos has already won forever because reasons".