What is with the hateboner that some people have for homebrewing?

This is fucking stupid.

In all seriousness fuck anyone who demands every game be a tolkein flavored meatgrinder and nothing more.

Also fuck anyone who limits races to human, short human or thin human. Have some fucking imagination.

Would you like an essay?

This is the crux of it. The OSR community has long since achieved enlightenment and a lot of tables will run a mishmash of 2+ systems with a shitload of homebrew and houserules without anyone batting an eye - the systems accommodated homebrew better to begin with, there was little to no new "official" content for years before the community caught momentum, and all the people who really cared about that stuff moved to newer editions.

Contrast to 5e, where many players all but physically puke at the mention of homebrew - even if the system is barely supported, it's new and they still prefer to wait for official content, which is monthly releases of whatever the devs picked from between their teeth and a book or two per year. This is despite there being an official platform for homebrew

this tbqh

You're making a lot of assumptions to that post out of fucking nowhere, but in general I disagree that a lizard-human is fundamentally more creative than a thin-magic-human or a short-human, and instead they just don't look as stupid

>overly niche

Found the pleb. Enjoy your generic fantasy shit, pleb.

we'd like the honest story

That has not been my experience with 5e at all, but I am also not in any hardcore D&D communities.

My DM just lets us use anything he doesn't think is too op, and we don't min max.

I feel the same way. I get that it's a little more work to try to get across to your players what your setting's races are like, but that can also be a good thing. Unusual or created races mean that they won't be coming to them with preconceived notions that may not be true for your elves/dwarves/etc.

Besides, it's fiction. Who wants to just rip off other people's ideas?

This is a more common complaint among people who view rpgs as games to be beaten, and D&D is specifically made for those people. Given that I'd say you weren't in the wrong necessarily, but your players probably should have been informed about that shit like that could happen.

Any other system and I'd have called the players shiteating retards, no questions asked.

I'm no Buddhist, but I'm pretty sure the last step to "enlightenment" is fucking off

>random unreasoning hateboner for homebrew
>has to pull a "o-o-obviously you're not telling the whole story" to feel safe in his opinion
>non-sequiturs that to why people don't like homebrew

Yeah, nah. You're a moron.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, but I would like to posit that midgets exist in real life and lizardmen don't, so lizardmen are inherently more creative than short humans in my humble opinion.

I feel as most of the responses are bate. Except for the ones who aren't arguing like autists.

But Veeky Forums do as you do.

Don't get me wrong, I love tolkien-esque high fantasy, but seriously have some imagination.
It's like people forget that role-playing is an interactive story created from the mind of the dm and the players. It's literally created on the base of the DM creating a world.

It doesn't matter if your DM is cool with it and you don't tangle with the broader rpg community, but even right here on /5eg/ reception towards the usage of homebrew is almost always negative

Homebrew feels wrong.

Gamers tend to operate off gut instinct and tummyfeels.

Homebrew gives bad tummyfeels, so homebrew is bad.

I was being facetious, user. No need to get your booty flustered

>Get a quest to slay a red dragon
>Spend a good amount of time hashing out a plan, gathering info, buying gear, etc.
>I drop a lot on a REALLY good potion of fire resistance and some magic arrows to ground it.
>Track the foul beast to it's lair
>IT_IS_TIME.tap
>Get blasted with acid by a burrowing flightless "dragon"
>GM: Dragons in my setting are flightless diggers with different breath weapons! Aren't my subversions clever?
>It's apparently common knowledge that we were never told about in-character or out-of-character.
>All our planning was a waste of time and resources while the GM smugly sat on his side of the screen and never once felt like clueing us in on something that's common knowledge in the setting.

>The otyugh can't be reasoned with and fucked instead of killing it
Surest sign of an absolute shit-tier DM desu, I'd quit too

Well generally you have to flesh out lizard people a little more, which makes them more interesting. A lot of people will take the traditional fantasy races and say "oh they're elves you know what they're like" or " these are like dwarves but have golden eyes and talons!", and rely on fantasy tropes to fill in the blanks

Wtaf m8 u wot

This is Veeky Forums, OP could give us pictures, diagrams, audio recordings, and a 500 word essay on how much of an ass his player was, and we'd still call it fake.

Almost every game I've ever played had a bunch of homebrewed stuff in it. Everyone I've ever played with treated the stuff in the published books as examples to base your own stuff on.

I mean, it's a creative hobby. I guess some people are bad at homebrewing, so some might have had bad experiences. But really, if you're doing anything other than playing published modules exactly as written, you're homebrewing.

Not siding with your dm but im about 60/40 on who's fault this actually is
At anypoint you could have turned and said "yo can i make a lore check on the strengths/weakeness of this dragon as i have a bunch of time and money to gather said information"But he is a dick for not saying shit that would be 100% obvious to your characters after a lot of fucking time and assumed information gathering

I'm running a 3.5 campaign with some friends, and pulled in another guy from the shop we frequent. Before he even rolled a character, I told him that I was a low-fsntasy setting and that I was forgoing a lot of what was already established in favor of homebrew. He agreed to this.

In the opening, a dragon attacks the starting city, but it's driven off using ballistas. The viscount offers any willing men money and land if they track it down and finish it off before it can nurse itself back to health and come back for round two.

During the fight, I threw the playbook out of the window to avoid having a long, boring, drawn out roll fest. Instead, I tried inserting some cinematic flair by having the dragon tail whip people, breathe fire at the group (prompting a reflex save), etc. Before the fight even began, the player in question tried to reason with it, even after being told that the dragon was bestial, because "dragons are intelligent creatures."

So, assuming that a wounded dragon would likely lash out at anything that got too close, I had the player roll a reflex save to avoid the fire. He failed, but passed the fort save, so he didn't outright die. He declared that it was bullshit homebrew, because dragons are conventionally sentient, etc. After the session, he said he wouldn't be back.

When creating a UNIVERSE perhaps the hardest thing to make you need to be pretty fucking smart to have it not be contradictory and shit. And people are fucking stupid. Also magical realm

You give a shit when Veeky Forums hates something? How do you play anything?

Take the feedback and input but some nameless faggots on the internet shouldn't stop you from liking something.

even if the dragon was sentient does he think he is gonna diplomacy a fucking dragon on session 1?

This was four sessions in, to be fair.

No difference

I feel like it's due 3.pf, which was and is awash in bad homebrew and third party nonsense. I'm pretty sure everyone who ever played either game had someone bring some inane or overpowered bull to the table. I know I did. I even liked some of it, but looking back a lot of it was goddawful and I could see how it would sour someone on it

There are also a lot of people who paradoxically try to do ttrpgs by the book with no deviations, so obviously shit you made yourself goes against their sola scriptura attitude

I can see the mix-up there, was he told the dragon was bestial in-character? And even if he wasn't "bestial" does not concretely confirm it is not sapient, he might have been holding out that what he was told was wrong as he "knew" how dragons work.

Either way I bet you can still patch things up by asking how you could do better or what he wants to see in the campaign. If you guys can come to an agreement on the expectations of the encounters I'm sure things can be worked out.

>4 sessions in
Oh man that really changes everything good thing by session 4 everybody is level 10 and has the abillity to charm a injured reclusive creature into calming down while its literaly still being fired on
If that guy attempts to come back dont let him
i would have given him a chance if and its a huge if
He managed to first calm down the towns people from literaly firing on him
Which would be a fucking check in its own right that they have no reason to agree to

If the dragon is a young one already grievously wounded I could see it being convinced.

>I had a player quit my group last night because the dragon I had them fight wasn't sentient and didn't have a type.
good riddance to them, I'm a firm believer that the rules shouldn't get in the way of fun.

To answer you question tho some people like to know everything about the monster, and become annoyed when they don't know it's weakness and or ability's.
Or they where molested by a home-brewer.

It sounds like it retreated and was at it's lair, not mid combat

I wonder how much work it'd take to scrub all the filth from one.

So a drake, wyvern, linhorn or any of the 1001 dumb dragons? why is that "homebrewing"?

Nothing of value was lost.

Yeah i just realized that
Still
Gravely wounded from balistas
Attacked a town for Seemingly no reason
bunch of armored fags show up and are like "yo wanna do diplomacy and shit"

Was the PC stupid? did he know dragons are non sentient in your setting?

Here comes another problem of "homerules", GMs don't mention them beforehanded and players stumble into them the bad way

>Oh sorry, I know you rolled a rogue, but this game is full constructs, undeads, plants, oozes and elementals. No, you can't change. What? why are you like that? this is my homerule

>You give a shit when Veeky Forums hates something?
I don't, but I'm answering to the topic at hand, which is why people a lot of people don't like homebrew

ah, I see.
he thought he(the player) knew better his character.
>que the "Don't mix OOC and IC. Ever." debate.

Enjoy being a special snowflake, shit ord.

Sure.

Like "Yo, bro, we know you're a budding red eager to prove yourself but ya can't be taking such risks dawg, there's better ways of going about this than attacking at random. Why don't you pretend to be the kingdom's ally for a couple hundred years, knock over caravans of the next kingdom over and get gold from them and tribute from the king for his "protection." That way you get a steady supply of gold and everyone thinks you're a badass for setting wagons on fire. They're like thatched roof cottages but have more valuable stuff inside!"

The term is houserule, friend

...

Maybe is a flat, or a loft

thats actually a really good plan but
they still most likely went in 100% armoured id have sent in the base tankiest person without arms or armor but who is not the main tank
to barter properly
i doubt this dragon was exactly the smartest one but that is a great offer

You can be armored but still have weapons sheathed and at a distance to talk rather than strike.

Says you.

w-why do I have a boner?
Why do I want to put my hand on its head?

When you want to fuck dragons you often think about how to keep those greedy fucks alive and not on a path of self destruction.

They certainly do not make it easy most of the time, but it makes the smarter ones all the more appealing.

Speaking of dragons and homebrew, I always get rid of metallic dragons and make chromatic dragon alignment dependant on the individual dragon. I also make it so the smarter dragons usually spent their early years being raised by a wizard of some type, perhaps as a familiar, though some were failed students or learned how the world works on their own.

I also never let them have the power to shapeshift, both because this is my magical realm and I think that creatures so defined by greed and vanity should view their true form as the perfect representation of themselves, and implications that they would be better suited by another form is a fucking insult.

>"What do you mean, I cannot fit in the doors of the grand hall? I was under the impression that accomodations would be made for your most esteemed guest, my 'friend'..."

If I was the GM in that case, I'd allow sneak attacks on said creatures that don't allow sneak attacks.

How does it work? Well you're still finding a weak point and striking it. Maybe he'd gain the ability after fighting them for a while.

>>The dragon can't be reasoned with and fucked instead of killing it

Holy shit,
99% of my game is homebrew. There are some very basic assumptions (elves dwarves humans, undead, magic, gunpowder, late medieval) but then the whole world and it's inhabitants are Homebrew. The players knew this going in and helped me flesh out the world as it went. Session zero and a few weeks thereafter were world building. Each of the players asked background questions, and I answered on the fly, writing as I went. More rules about how magic worked were set down the day a wizard joined, than in any other day of play.

And they love it so far.
A year of play, and the only hiccup was a guy asking about Dwarven burial rites and 500 year old history.

Holy shit. Maybe it's just because this is a gurps game but fuck you guys, Homebrew rocks

Take yourself and your double dubs to /trash/ and look for the scalie thread.

You're fine. Player's a bitch. Sounds like they didn't like homebrew because it was counter to their metagaming expectations. People try to talk to wild animals and get fucked up all the time.

Diplomacy is not a charm spell.

>not patting the dragon
You're not new here too, are you?

You can pat many dragons there, my melanin enriched compatriot

>while he is distracted, I stab him with my sword.

That user had a perfectly valid reason to argue, even while being a massive jerk.
You see, it's fine calling upon your wisdom and experiences to provide insight into a problem, but OP quite clearly provided a minimal info; just the fact that a player had left because of a single homebrew change. Sure, getting mad about one homebrew change seems and totally is dumb, but what we cannot tell from what the OP said is:
>Was it the only homebrew rule that player raged about?
>Did simply mentioning the rule cause the player to leave there and then right on the spot as it came from OPs mouth or was there a set of events leading up to it?
>Was the player even made aware of the homebrew rules before starting the game and encountering the dragon?
Without this information, it looks cherrypicked as hell. We can't say if the OP is being genuine or is actually hiding the truth just so they can get a whole load of aprovals from these anons that OP has never met.
So we should always ask for more information when we need it if we want to offer our insight, otherwise we risk offering the wrong advice to the wrong people.

This is what asking for more information can look like:
And there we have it. We now know the player knew about homebrew before the session began. We now know the player left after a single session. A bunch more can be taken from this expand that a bunch of other anons have now given insight on.

OPs 721 answer could all be made up, sure, but going off what we have and assuming OP isn't lying, we can now give better feedback and answer OPs question more wisely and less loosely.

And remember: Just because someone writes or speaks like a massive asshole, doesn't mean they're wrong to probe. OP knew that.

dragons have giant fucking bonuses to their saves and im mildly sure past a certain age they are immune to charm spells like most other things

Oh, I will.

Yeah, nah. You're a tryhard.

See, what I was calling user out for wasn't asking for more info, it was flipping in spite of having inadequate info, and then for illogically connecting the concept of a cherry-picked story with all homebrewers and saying that's why people hate homebrew.

So yeah, he's a moron, and you're a tryhard.

>he's a moron, and you're a tryhard
And you're an asshole, and I'm a fool for even answering you.

>In your case, metagaming faggots go full autism when they see a new creature and they don't know AC, HP and the likes.
It sounds like bullshit, but it's true. In 20+ years of D&D I've met four of them, and they quit groups for similar reasons. They treat this shit like a videogame, and react like the DM is cheating when something's stats don't match what they memorized in the Monster Manual.

>Otherwise Homebrews tend to be overpowered or overly niche shit.
This is also true. I've found homebrew stuff is very rarely balanced, but it's just as likely to swing toward underpowered as it is to overpowered.

>moving through a forest, our paladin falls into a pitfall trap
>DM:you take X fall damage, and now you're covered in dirt. What'cha gonna do now?
>P:well, no biggie, can I get out of it?
>DM:Sure.
>Rogue: I'll throw a rope down there
>DM: Nah, it's not that deep
>P:Then I'll climb out of it
>DM: Come on, guys
>P: uuh... is the dirt too loose to climb?
>DM:Really?
>R: I offer my hand to pull him out
>DM: I can think of, like, 4 different ways to get out of there and all you're doing is this
>P: We're doing what we can with what we're given, how big is the hole?
>DM: ugh, whatever, the paladin gets out of the hole, move on
Every time this happens I feel like I lose a little piece of myself

I have barded this way and I make no apologies for it.

>dm cries later while stroking perfectly drawn picture of a 3 foot deep hole

Daily reminder that scalies are just smug furries.

i often see people with not much creativety thinking that rpg's are strict ruled games. i think it is related

Absolutely.

There's a sort of person that is extremely authoritarian that seems to think that if it's not from the word of god (in this case wizards or paizo) it shouldn't be allowed, up to and including stuff that's not on your sheet (I.E. Ziplining isn't a skill so you can't do it.)

Good riddance

Wait, the dragon had a "save or die" breath weapon? Yeah. I would have walked too.

And you said earlier it didn't have a type... was that because he tried to cast a spell on it that would have helped and you rule 0'd it because you're an asshole? Or so you could prevent him from rolling the lore skill he took with his skill points?

And was this "cinematic flair" random out-of-action attacks by the dragon while he was in the middle of his full attack sequence?

I still think it's 70/30 you're the fuckwit, not him.

the most broken shit in 3.5 is all in the phb tho

As long as you make it work in setting, and still have dragons be awesome dangerous things to fight, I'm cool. Non-sentient isn't really my thing, but I can work with typeless as long as they're badass.

If you're not hyping the dragon enough before the fight tho, I'm probably out. If a dragon drops out of the sky on the party and my first thought is not "JESUS CHRIST RUN" you fucked up.

I'm way late, but /thread

I'm unsure if you've fucked the combat up or went razzle dazzle with the rules. I can understand someone being angry at combat rules being used wrong. Don't mess with the base combat rules or very early warn that you're going to, because players that like combat usually know the rules and plan their shit accordingly. If you mess with the combat, the whole imaginary world/game becomes hostile, scary and unknown to them, and this isn't what you want (they usually want the joyride not the grind).

Combats are usually long drawn out diceroll fests because HP; and that's just the short story. HP is a barrier between states alive and dead, in a way it could be a "round timer" of how much time something has to live in an average combat session. If the party does average20damage, a 100 hp creature is expected to last for 5 rounds. Sometimes luck happens sometime shit happens, but a 100hp creature should last at least 2 rounds and at most 8 rounds vs. avg20dpr party. Amount of actors in the combat also drastically increases round times; 8 rounds of higher level 3.5 can last 5+ hours with 6 players and 8 monsters on the mat.

If you want faster fights you need to lower all HP or play enemies that retreat, not drastically change combats. You might've given the dragon two plays in a single round or gave him one too many actions, but I wouldn't understand if you've done so because you've tipped the scale in the drake's favor (the scale should always be slightly tipped towards the PCs). This could've been the thing that triggered your player. He could've been a softie too, I don't know.

All I know is that messing with base rules can butterfly effect fuck with everything else you do. sorry for wallotext

>was he told the dragon was bestial in-character?
This is idiotic. In character, nobody without knowledge of dragons would likely assume they were sapient in a million years. It's only meta knowledge that would drive them to do that, if he ignored that he's simply a moron.

Living in an Otyugh den for a month qualifies you for a free Iron Will Feat, so it's probably impossible.

You're a cool person

We don't have the full story, but I'd say that it was definitely in the players court to not make assumptions about the setting, to ask questions about what their character would know, and to adapt based on what they should have "already" known.

I do dragons way, way way different than the standard tropes but I've had multiple people fight some, and one guy be a dragon slayer as his character concept, and it went fine. They asked questions both before and during the encounter, and I tried my best to make it clear what sort of thing they're dealing with

From my reading of what he said, I think the guy just had low HP and took enough damage from the breath weapon to go to 0 and start dying. As for not having a type, OP may have just not wanted a rainbow coalition of dragons all with different effects and weaknesses. I can't vouch for the 'cinematic' nature of the fight, though it's a really far stretch to assume that it would be while someone else is in the middle of their turn.

From the sound of everything, the DM made Dragons in his settings your typical beastly drake or wyvern, and then his player got upset because he metagamed that these Dragons were Dragons and not what he was told. While the way the DM handled the fight itself or the strength of the dragon compared to the PC's abilities might have been a factor, it's impossible to know why the guy really left.

Since the other players didn't seem to have a problem with the combat system though, and presumably the rest of the fight went fine and it wasn't a TPK, I'd say the more reasonable conclusion is that he was indeed upset that the Dragon they fought wasn't what was in the monster manual.

what don't be silly
this is d&d, which as we all know, is garbage
a level 3 wizard can destroy everything and we have to invent rules because the rulebook doesn't explain how to do anything.

>no character rolled knowledge nature
>no character rolled knowledge arcana
>no character looked for sages or scholars to seek their opinions if they didn't pass their checks
>just assumed it breathed fire
So the GM punked you for being a meta-gaming fag. I'm not seeing the bad side.

Rarely is the kind of GM who's all up their own ass about their homebrews actually that even-handed with their players. Oftentimes they'll twist rules so that players have an artificial dearth of information, or just break the rules of the game in nonsensical ways for the sake of doing so. I see no reason to put so much faith in OP.

most people dont like homebrew monster because they tend to be unbalanced. oftentimes, in a system that is already not that balanced in the first place.

homebrewing is also a shortcut for: looking into a bestiary is TOO HARD so im gonna vomit numbers super quick in my head. players end with monsters half created, unbalanced and not defined