How do you make a compelling rival adventuring party without overstepping into DMPC territory?

How do you make a compelling rival adventuring party without overstepping into DMPC territory?

By making them all knife ears.

Just have them always show up a few steps ahead and just about to leave? I don't see how a DMPC situation would happen.

First recommendation: Don't FORCE the player characters to interact with them. (This should actually apply to just about any NPCs that aren't enemies, but here in particular.)

Second recommendation: Don't make them be around a lot, unless the players clearly like them being around. Let their encounters with this other adventuring party be sparse, and for goodness sake, think twice before planning for the PC party to go on a dungeon raid with the rival party.

Third recommendation: Make sure this other party is well balanced, and at best roughly equal or even a bit weaker than the PC party. Have some of them injured/recovering from injuries when you have the PC party encounter them, at least once; that should give at least the subconscious impression that these guys aren't invincible, Mary-Sue DMPC types. Giving them some character flaws couldn't hurt either.

make them the exact opposite of the characters then devote way too much time and story arcs to these stupid gimmick schmucks

Give them exploitable flaws that are discernible with a bit of observation and roll for the rivals in the same way the players must when the outcome of an action can result in failure. This should cause the rivals to appear just as mortal as the PCs. You better be ready to improvise when they fail at something important though...

Don't be afraid to let them die. I was running a nights black agents game and had an opposing team of spies working for the bbeg. Same number, similar skillsets, etc. etc. 3 of the 5 were killed after their first meeting. The other two became recurring antagonists for the party, they eventually killed one and the final member of the anti-party betrayed the bbeg and became it herself.

This is WAY better, in my opinion, that if I had come up with some bullshit reason to have the whole anti-party escape/ recruit more guys just for the sake of recurring rivals. Throw the anti-party at them, have them about to leave with the prize and see what happens. Don't fuck your players over from a victory just so they have a reason to hate the other party, let that shit play out.

Literally use the PC's exact character sheets with different fluff.

my PC absolutely loves the "Evil" party they face often, although its more of being the greedy jerk versions of them rather than really evil

they have the same character level, but all of them are built to the same standards as a PC, and they fight like a PC controlled party when they engage the PC

my palyers find it refreshing when their foes arent relying on bloated stats or special snowflake rules, just a party with the same abilities as them but played with strategy

you can also use it as a tutorial of sorts, when your PCs start to just devolve into "i attack", you can have the rivals use the environment like "action surge to give me 4 chances to throw you overboard" or "hold person so the archer can turn you into a pin cushion"
nothing like using this against your party to get them to learn

Option 1: Legit Rivals. Make it clear that they intend to squabble, go for treasure x, or what have you, then permit them to do it, if the party decides to race/confront them let the party have decent information and (short of actually running the fights) if the PCs encounter their rivals mid-delve, the rivals should be down resources representing whatever they've cleared

Option 2: If the PCs and Rivals are going at the same time, actually run the encounters for the rivals between those for the PCs, with the players piloting the level-appropriate monsters

Option 3: Ineffectual. The rivals talk shit and generally win when opposing the environment. In direct conflict with the PCs, play it out as normal. In indirect conflict with the PCs, though, they will always be one step behind rather than one step ahead.

Option 4: Comedic. They are literally Team Rocket/the Turks and mostly just add flavor.

Avoce all, give them decent characters as you would any NPC or villain.

Let them win sometimes. Let them lose sometimes. Don't make it an all or nothing deal.

If the party can interact meaningfully, it's a good encounter. That might be "we want to lot this area first but we're all in it together, aren't we?". It might be a straight up fight because there's some past history.

Make them as murderhobo as the party, give them lives, and let the players kill then or help them or run in to them unexpectedly and get good (or bad) advice from them.

I think the biggest thing is if they're always winning, or doing things the party can't, or don't have any apparent weaknesses to exploit, then they're lame

>the Turks
They were great. Quirky miniboss team that's super scary to everyone.... Except to the party, who are way scarier.

Plus they add more feeling, since they do a better job arguing offer what they're supposed to do than faceless minions do

have the PCs constantly encountering the rival party bickering about one thing or another:
>Who's fault it is that they had to use the last charge of the cure wand and broke it.
>Who was responsible for bringing the rope.
>Why would you blow your last spell on knock when i can pick the lock? I thought wizards were supposed to be smart!
>You let the goblin go? You idiot! We're going to be knee deep in those damned anklebiters now!
>Okay! Okay! I admit it, in retrospect, trying to ride the Bulette was a bad idea.
>I swear to the gods if i find the diamond i need to cast chromatic orb in your backpack again, I'm going to boot you into the next pit we find!

and i just realized I created a rogue-wizard rivalry...

Do you even know what a DMPC means?

Protip: DMPC doesn't mean "frequently appearing NPC."

This.

You're right, but at the same time a rival adventuring party who's too effective (You get through the dungeon only to find the rivals have already killed the boss and are busy looting; You and the rivals are doing important shit but they got home first and got the glory even if you still get praise; etc) could get really grating in a similar way even if it's a decent trope in fiction to have the rival be constantly ahead of the main character and only be surpassed with great effort on the part of the lead. So when you're exporting the idea to a RPG, you need to twist it around to account for the desire or players to have agency and be effective, which is more true in a TTRPG even than in a video game.

Make them blatan bizzarro versions who are explicitly good at everything the other party is bad at (and bad at what they are good at).

Reversed gender optional.

BIZARRO BIZARRO I LOVE YOU BIZARRO

Usually I make the rival characters based off of the players' previous characters, at least describe them just enough for them to realize. Maybe subvert their names. What interactions they have they see these NPCs have exaggerated personality traits. Enough to rustle them, but still hold up a mirror to them.

You can't. Ditch that idea.

I've been toying with the idea of having a Black-OPs squad appear in the background a few times, never directly interacting with the group (of course if the PCs choose to do something with them I'll move from there). They'll basically be described as well-equipped and a bit odd in terms of appearance.

What their mission is will honestly depend on how the game goes, since I don't want to plan that part too strictly.

You alternate groups sharing the same universe: Two separated group of players.

This:>Don't be afraid to let them die.
NPCs only really become DNPCs when they have plot armor.

Basically this. Absence makes the heart grow fonder--or in this case, won't drive your players crazy.

I'll agree to disagree on the third point, since I think it's fun to go full-rival and design a team catered to the party's weaknesses. They don't even have to be ENEMIES, but ensuring they're acknowledged as a credible threat adds some juice.

One of my favorite ideas is having the Player party encounter a rival adventuring party as they enter a dungeon, and the foil party is just leaving. Nothing happens, but it's super awkward. I feel like that'd be a great defining moment to introduce them.

Needless to say, I haven't tried that yet because I know nothing will go as planned.

>Have some of them injured/recovering from injuries when you have the PC party encounter them, at least once; that should give at least the subconscious impression that these guys aren't invincible, Mary-Sue DMPC types.
Nice, a dangerous poisonning, illness or a serious affliction would make for a nice reveal and could even lead to a quest if they ask the PCs for help.

>turns out one of them is injured but they have to complete their quest because it's their last chance to get good with the local baron/king/religion, otherwise they'll be bannished/killed
>their mission was to retrieve an item ot some stuff that is to be delievered asap because it's requiered by an important ritual that can only be done once every 50 years/it will save someone important; everyone needs to hold off the enemies but the fastest character has sworn to never flee from a fight/can't "flee" for some reason and they need to convince them to do it
>one of their fighters is heavily injured and can't fight anymore and the party is stuck with them because there are way more ennemies than expected; the healers powers don't work for some reason/curse/emotional trauma but they don't want to fight because that would be going against their god or ethics, so the party has to convice him/her to take up arms because their life is on the line

>alchemist is a coward so she keeps pouring potions in the stew when nobody's looking
>fighter is a glutton so it gives him diarrhea

>once the alchemist pours a healing potion in the pot
>the rabbit/chicken/whatev that was being cooked gets healed and escapes
>it reveals their position to an angry tribe of orcs

>dwarf loves drinking ale
>it makes him fart
>the elf's nose just discovered Hell

>necromancer isn't in full control of their power
>ends up resurrecting every sickness the other characters just healed from

>tank has a genetic quirck that makes him go invisible whenever angry or excited
>ennemies don't see him so they focus weaker characters

>wizard wants to absord the dying enemy's mana
>zealous fighter finishes them off as an offering to the god of war

>some character's mount dies
>centaur refuses to be ridden

Have other players control them.

If the Linear Guild comes back again then Rich has lost it.

Make them FUCKABLE. Competition is a lot more friendly when a PC wants to bang the sorceress in the other party, and she sort of likes him too.

Thog was good.

He'd have been a better protagonist than Belkar.

Just have a statue outside every dungeon with graffiti on it that say "Team X was here"

Occasionally have them bump into the party as they walk away with handful of treasure.

Show them relaxing in town surrounded by luxury and companionship when the party comes back with mud and bruises.

Let the party see them riding around on well bred horses with lavish carriages while they're stuck with donkeys and an ox-cart.

Sabine is definitely coming back for revenge. As far as I'm concerned, Thog isn't dead until we see his corpse get destroyed.

I hate to admit it, but for most DMs managing players, this is a cheap trick that often works.

This this this.

Embrace the hate. Make them WANT to one up them.

If this became the norm, how long would it take until monsters caught on and began labeling their lairs as conquered.

Does anyone here have experience with doing this? I've wondered about how something like this would go.

I like doing a connection like that to the players.

How about a rival party made up of their fans?

>the wizard's apprentice they saved from the stone sleep of a gorgon
>the young girl they found lost and injured in the dark woods
>the little boy's family they inspired to stand up to a corrupt guild
>a street rat the party rogue gave some pointers too
>the local bully that the paladin's words turned into the village champion

They are all low level, and not terribly savvy. Not rivals in the traditional sense, but a party the other players will have to spending a lot of time and pain rescuing. The setup would require a little planning, but imagine the players reaction when they realize they are responsible for an all Jar-Jar Binks party.

>*loud explosion* I told you to stay our of my bag!

Have them win out over the party in mostly indirect ways. often by having them succeed at similar tasks, but not necessarily the same tasks. If they fight the party, make it a fight but don't make it totally impossible for the payers to win. A good rival sits a peer level with the protagonists, give or take a little wiggle room.

Implying the entire campaign isn't about stupid gimmick schmucks.

I did this with the vOrc and her band of tiny terrors. I regret it to this day.

MY BREASTS are sensing this one knows something......