Why is this card so controversial? I don't get it

Why is this card so controversial? I don't get it

Fateseal 1 for +2
Card advantage and hand sorting for 0
Unsummon for -1
-12 win con

Every mode is better than other planeswalkers versions, together it is a swiss army knife.

>fateseal, fucks with a lot of tutor effects however it is also just really strong allows you to get rid of stuff you can't deal with by not allowing them to draw it.
>motherfucking brainstorm, Brainstorm is perhaps the single greatest handshaping spell in all of magic and is one of the most played spell in any format it is available in. Take the shit in your hand put it on top of your deck crack a fetch and the chaff gets shuffled in.
>unsummon
>I win button

It is overpowered as all hell, also the intro of planeswalkers as cards some see as the point where magic began to jump the shark design wise.

It's just the other colors being salty that U got something good for a change

>shit in modern
>banned in modern

it really isn't even strong enough to belong anywhere else

wtf

It's really good but where does it fit? Maybe if they unbanned it we'd see an actual control archetype again since they'd have a reasonable win condition beyond colonnade beats.

I'm pretty sure a lot of the reason it's still banned is that it ruined standard.
I personally think it would be fine in modern, you don't have a lot of the tools that you can use to protect him in legacy. And even in legacy he doesn't see all that much play.

It's a whole Lantern Control deck in a single card. It protects itself. It wins on it's own. It's another axis of attack for hard control decks.

It's controversy comes in two forms. When it first came out, it's final form with the Fateseal ability was a last minute addition to the design file untested by R&D. It also sold for cheap at release. It also was so dominant in standard that it created a single deck meta resulting in multiple bannings. The first in 8 years. So players were pissed about this untested piece of trash ruining Standard. Card sellers wer pissed they lost a shitload of money on undervalued Jaces. This introduced the "planeswalker Tax" on new preorders.

The second controversy comes with the advent of Modern. JtMS is not so meta defining in non-rotating formats, however Modern started with several cards preemptively banned to disable historically problematic archetypes (Dredge, Caw-blade, Faeries, Zoo, Storm, etc.) Some players think that Jace would not be metagame-warping in Modern. Other players dread levels of speculative jewery the likes of which Magic has never seen in the event that he becomes unbanned.

That help?

The trouble with Mindsculptor was the trouble with Mental Misstep.
In addition to insane value, the only good answer to it was itself.

With the M14 rule change, there's just no good answer.

>In addition to insane value, the only good answer to it was itself.
Hell, people used to run Jace 1.0 as "Destroy JtMS"

Brainstorm on a card that at the time in Standard didn't have a lot of direct answers for. It doesn't seem that bad now, but you had to be playing at the time to really understand how it dominated the meta.

I felt the same till I actually casted it, its versatility is insane.

It had one other answer, BBE.

I prefer to see them as an attackable enchantement. This way it seems easier to deal with.

>It's really good but where does it fit?

In literally, LITERALLY every blue deck. As four copies.

It's the best planeswalker ever made you idiot. You don't need to work to make him good, you just play him and then you win the fucking game because you played him.

>I prefer to see them as an attackable enchantement. This way it seems easier to deal with.

Except there's a massive shitload of extremely efficient cards that kill enchantments. There is no one mana instant that says "exile target planeswalker". There is no creature that destroys a planeswalker when it enters the battlefield or deals combat damage to a player.

There's Hero's Downfall. That's good enough - a tempo advantage to you, even. They spend 4, you spend 3, you're ahead and you're both down a card.

lol just lightning bolt it

>There is no creature that destroys a planeswalker

nice
planeswalkers being enchantments is still a pretty ass comparison though, ie:
>one black creature kills itself to kill a planeswalker
>compared to ~50 creatures in W, U, G, W/R, and C being able to destroy enchantments AND remain on the battlefield, usually as they enter the battlefield

Not OP but that was very interesting and informative. Thanks!

Lmao just attack the planeswalker with your creature

Because it says CUNT in front of him.

>-1: Unsummon

I'm actually an advocate for Jace's modern unbanning, but really, attacking Jace isn't usually an option.

>hero's downfal
Hahaha.
Vs jace you are either fate meme'd or one down and he's one up plus CA or board impact (he bounced a big threat).

>4of!!1!1!!111@
Memedernette spotted!

He is a 3 off in fucking hypregreed crap like nic fit walkers. At BEST.

So now he's at 2 and you hit him with your other creature?

>no developing your board state in the four turns before he comes down
Your own fault.

>your opponent has and only has Jace TMS with no other cards in hand, disruption, or removal

You don't drop a Jace against a board of creatures you fucking waterhead. If you're playing U/x you counter and remove their shit, then drop Jace against a single target, bounce it, and now you're in control.

You don't tap out turn four for jace when your opponent has a board. You play him once you've stabilized and proceed to go on winning the game immediately.

He would become the best win condition of U/x control in modern and make it better. The issue with unbanning him is if that "better" turns out to be an oppressive 45+% of the meta. The thing I hear from time to time is that unbanning JTMS would also warrant unbanning bloodbraid elf.

When it comes to legacy he is, as others have described in the thread, "immediate removal or you lose" good. Ive never played vintage so I cant speak to him there if he is played. EDH is EDH so in a multiplayer game he is just brainstorm once a turn.

Dreadbore, Hero's Downfall, Fated Retribution is a wipe, In Garruk's Wake is a one-sided wipe, Never//Return destroys and has another card stapled to it, Ruinous Path, which also lets you animate a land because why not, Silumgar's Command, Aether Snap removes counters, Vampire Hexmage
There's plenty of planeswalker removal in addition to direct damage and burn spells that do a lot of damage to planeswalkers (They're typically lumped in with creatures) like Devour in Flames, Nahiri's Wrath, Magmaquake.

the problem with removing planeswalkers is that they will always get a -1 out before they get removed. you might drop a dreadbore on a jace, but even then you've spent 2 mana and a card to destroy a 4 mana card that already bounced something. a bounce is basically worth just about 2 mana or even more, so at best you can make it an even value trade

You're not wrong about planeswalkers, but unsummon effects are worth a little less than a mana, see Vapor Snag.

There's also just not letting Jace hit the field at all, via counter, discard, milling, or just otherwise winning the game before he can.

(By "he", I do mean Jace and not his player)

Let's put it this way. If Jace were unbanned, would there be a reason for a Modern blue Control deck to NOT run Jace?

If a card is so good that you have to come up with reasons NOT to run it, rather than reasons TO run it, then it needs to be banned.

why does every white deck use path to exile for removal? should it be banned?
it's a shit argument. I never played with OG jace so I don't know in practice how pwerful he is, but on paper it certainly doesn't seem to be a big deal (in regards to the modern format at least)

but the same is true for many modern cards of each color.

like bolt for example.

Vapor Snag costs U and a card, though. Not just 1 mana. If Vapor Snag cantripped, you would have a point, but it doesn't, and you lose card advantage when you use it.

So, if we consider that drawing a card costs about 2 mana in a typical setting, give or take, a bounce effect costs a little less than 3 mana.

Using Dreadbore on JtMS is trading 1 card for 1 card. JtMS player gets an extra bounce of value whereas the Dreadbore player gets an extra 2 mana.

Typically, the game is balanced so that the player playing removal wins the value trade because he is paying an opportunity cost (answer vs drop) but in this case, the guy dropping a JtMS against a Dreadbore player doesn't actually lose the trade as long as he uses the -2. And that's kinda fucked.

See, when you put the qualifier "control" on it, I think that's when it becomes okay. It's when a card becomes an auto include in the color regardless of archetype that I think it should be studied for the possibility of banning. A blue control staple is no different than a red aggro staple, like Guide and Swiftspear.

In fact, I think the only reason Jace would become as ubiquitous a blue control finisher is because there really aren't alternatives in blue. Blue control decks usually have to splash for their finishers in modern.

There are definitely color staple cards in modern that shouldn't be banned, bolt and path are two clear examples, but I believe that clear consensus of them being fair was achieved because of how much play they see in the format. If Jace were played that much we'd definitely have a clear picture about whether he is balanced for modern.

You made sense with your first part then just went completely off the fucking rails. The unsummon part of a card costs a little less than 1 mana. You can see this in practically every modern unsummon effect, they cost one mana and usually have a very small bit of utility stapled on.

For any spell that doesn't explicitly cantrip, paying a card is a part of the cost. That's why I'm saying that a bounce costs either 3 mana or 1 mana and a card, because a card is worth 2 mana. Can you understand that? Here's an example

>you have 7 cards
>opponent has 7 cards
>he casts lightning bolt at your ali baba
>you cast Unsubstantiate on his bolt
>you now have 6 cards (because your Unsubstantiate is now in your graveyard)
>he still has 7 cards

That's what losing card advantage is!!

I don't know how I can put this any simpler than it already is. It seems to me that you simply do not understand how card advantage works in MTG