When you think about it shouldn't a fantasy world get gunpowder weapons faster than in reality...

>be a guntard
>screams about gun superiority for free.

If anything, your case look worse thanks to your way of going at it.

It takes seconds for a mage to fill your powder horn with water. Or fill your barrel with small rocks. Or just fire everywhere.

...

You really can't see past your personal preferences and biases, can you?

You're choosing for it to work that way. There's no other basis for it. Alternate methods are just as valid, that's just one way you're choosing to imagine it.

Just one spell invalidate your entire army and destroy them.

Mass Heat Metal.

nice rebuttal, really proved me wrong

some user mentioned how crossbows permanently changed the face of warfare in such a short time, guns would be no different in a fantasy setting. accessibility to magic should be low in order to have a believable and respectable setting and the mass production of guns in tandem with how quickly people can learn to shoot and maintain guns in comparison to years of study, practice, and tutelage of magic- it's a no brainer

>If I make all these assumptions about how things work, things will go the way I say they do!

it takes seconds for a mage to be shot down by 30 riflemen

can you cast "mass heat metal" on hundreds of soldiers at one moment?

Crossbows didn't change the face of warfare for literally almost a thousand years after their introduction.
Guns didn't invalidate anything for hundreds of years (Bows, guns, swords, and spears were on the same fields for a looooong time), and then didn't supplant all other forms of weaponry for another few hundred. The turn of the 19th century was when firearms well and truly took over and relegated all other weapons to niche use at best.

>mfw the fantasy setting has rifles
>mfw the rifles don't use gunpowder
>mfw the rifles are a sort of railgun using magical metal strips within the barrel to propel the round and/or pulse of magical energy

and yet you've not brought a single rebuttal to the table

it's common sense that something wonderful like magic is only wonderful in that it's rare. if everyone can fart fireballs then magic has no value, therefore your setting becomes boring

Usually the idea is they never progress because magic trumps tech, so they stop trying to invent things without using magic.

There's nothing to rebut. You're making assertions without justification or argument, and acting as if repeating them is enough to make them true.

>riflemen
Hah, you think handgonnes are that quick? No, you have to load them on site and they're finicky and inaccurate. By the time you've got your powder out, the mage has already done something to render it useless. All it takes is a little bit of water for early guns to be worthless.

guns invalided shields, bows, and plate armor, what are you talking about? entirely new formations had to be created in order to use and counter firearms

do you not realize that guns were loaded before fights? and that there's usually several lines of riflemen so that when one line fires, the next is ready to shoot?

Eventually. All of them coexisted for centuries.

Early guns were almost worthless beyond 100m.

And spells like protection form missiles exist.

No? Shields were already on the way out because armor was good enough that using two hands on the weapon was better.
The term bulletproof comes from armor literally being proven bullet resistant by the smith shooting it. The proof is the tiny dent created by that act, as opposed to a hole.
Bows, meanwhile, had greater range and still worked in bad weather. They were on the same battlefields most of the time.

additionally, how many soldiers can a mage target at once? with guns being mass produced, he'd be outnumbered by the hundreds

Plate armor was invented later than guns you fucking idiot.

tech develop slower if magic makes life easier

Handgonnes weren't. And multiple ranks firing and loading in alternate patterns was a relatively advanced tactic that was not in use with early guns.

What would be the point of rebutting a personal opinion? These are assumptions about a setting no one has brought into consideration other than yourself based on the vague notion (that you keep insisting) that the introduction of firearms would upset the very existence of magic within this setting of yours.

This is how you do it. If you want guns in your setting, but don't want to make it feel modern, make them magic railguns.

bulletproof armor was also quickly invalidated when the powder and the designs for guns got better. also, the only shields worth using were bucklers, and those were mostly used by civilians for self defense

Protection from missiles is a relatively easy spell.
Hundreds of men can't fire on one man even if he's out in a huge field. They can't all have a clear line of effect.

If you're literally pitting a bunch of early gunmen against a wizard with no other support on either side, the wizard will usually win because he can just make it rain or create a bullet deflecting shield and then throw a fireball.

Read this: journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/MCR/article/view/17669/22312

Early guns were inaccurate. Even rifled ones until minie ball was invented.

And even at close range it was possible to stop musket bullets with good armor.

i never said plate armor wasn't you mongoloid, i'm saying shortly after guns invalidated armor

Warhammer Fantasy still has guns being lethal as heck while still having an important focus on magic.

what makes you think the gunmen would be the only unit type? there would also obviously be cavalry armed with guns and pikemen, etc

So there are multiple wizards then. Some block all incoming ranged attacks, and the rest make it rain so the powder gets wet and is useless. GG.

>bulletproof armor was also quickly invalidated

400 years is quickly? Shit, breastplates were used all the way to World War I.

even if there's a dozen wizards, two dozen wizards, three, guns would be mass produced to the tens of thousands in a matter of years

>breastplates were used all the way to World War I.

with varying affect

Does anybody have that picture that says "Depends on so many variables that your question boils down into a meaningless inflammatory statement?" or something along those lines.

Ummm, no. Also it would still be a hell of a lot more than the weapons training.

Gun tech would definitely surpass magic but no one would spend 500 years of technological advancement and incredible amounts of resources to get there when a mage is already here.

what if people hate and distrust mages for their immense power? all it would take is one rogue mage to get people worried and start making counters measures for magic users

>guns would be mass produced to the tens of thousands in a matter of years
Funny how that didn't happen irl. If you're arguing that guns and magic have to be against each other, the magic will always win, because early guns were slow, inaccurate, not particularly lethal, easily nulled by weather, and had to be made one at a time. You'd bring your early pre-arquebus guns to a fight and end up unable to use them because the guy you're up against ruined your powder. And that's just basic "summon water". That's not even the stupidly OP shit that some magic users can do in certain settings.

Guns are not that counter, unless you somehow make anti-magic bullets and keep your powder in an anti-magic horn, without using magic yourself to do it.

>wizards are hunted down
Why

Either they ARE the law, or they are used by the law.

Why people have this big boner about empires killing magic and magical beasts I've no idea.

>Funny how that didn't happen irl

except it did, firearms were part of the Ottoman Empire's regular infantry by the late 15th century, and around that time the French knights were stomped by gunmen

>I roll with the idea that guns are too intricate for blacksmiths and that only a mage could have the mathematical training to make guns.
dunno about personal firearms, but when it comes to cannons, if you know how to make a church bell you already know most of what's needed to make a primitive cannon

also on the guns vs magic debate I prefer the middle route where both options have merits and don't obsolete each other just by existing, and indeed can complement each other very well in the right circumstances(like say a Mage in the military keeping a couple pistols on his person so he doesn't have to use up slots on Magic Missile, or a sniper who has some enchanted ammo to increase his effectiveness)

>The turn of the 19th century was when firearms well and truly took over and relegated all other weapons to niche use at best.
honestly even then other weapons maintained at least some relevance up through WW1

That's not true. French knights were being stomped by many things.

>late 15th century
Centuries after the advent of guns, one empire had them as part of their regular infantry equipment.
That's not mass produced by the tens of thousands in a matter of years. That's mass produced by the thousands in a matter of centuries.

Chinese had them in regular infantry way beforehand, then.

Although I admit to a large extent the Chinese don't count.

The Chinese also used many other weapons at the same time, and still didn't mass produce them in the tens of thousands within a few years.

Really cute this "musket" of yours.
Now kill pic related with it.

If anything the muggles fuck yeah people would be outlawed when anyone witb two neurons to rub together realizes you need magic to kill the ancient evil of the month.

>w-what? Guns might hurt my wizards?
>well they summon huge eldritch monsters now!
This infinity plus one shield stuff is pathetic. Just acknowledge that different settings work differently.

Take a good look at Pathfinder, where wild west tier guns exist, and come back here

No one should be made to look at Pathfinder.

The problem is I have a bunch of pedantic assholes in my group with one insufferable tool in particular who doesn't do well with "I don't care I like it and thought it was cool" when it inconveniences him.

"Protection from Mundane Missiles".
What now?

The thing is, even if Guns replace magic in terms of commonality on the battlefield as a weapon, they would not replace magic for all the other aspects of both life and warfare. Mass communication, scrying, resource manufacture, transportation, terrain alteration, visibility cover, defensive cover, illumination, crowd control, healing and triage, spying and counter-intelligence, illusions to hide troop placement, troop morale/performance enhancers, weapon enhancement/enchantment (now you can turn shitty flintlocks into magic sniper rifles for specialists), weather manipulation, cover creation, smokescreens, enhancements to cavelry such as magically created mounts, quick troop creation, siege warfare, etc.

And tha's only the military application. Next you have to conside how the existance of magic and magical items will effect the economy, how their supply and demand will be determined, who has the right to create and sell magical items, rates for wizards to charge magical services and how that in turn affects auxiliary markets, item availablility, political sway the mages and potential guilds my have, overall quality of life for the citizenry, how pay rates will be altered by this market, how magic will effect safety and worksman benefits, corporate espionage, the potential cost of automation with golems vs traditional workers, and the millions of other factors.

Heck, even with some basic maical spells and effects, society and the needs of it can be changed drastically if not addressed by an in-universe reasons. Decanter's of Endless Water, Pearls of Purity, Create Food and Drink, Rings of Sustanance all majorly effect basic resource needs of people, and all that you need to created a near-perpetual electric generator is a simple Ring of Gates pair, which a smart wizard would black-box, patent, and sell to people and live as a rich fatcat from his royalties, rent/use fees, and occasional maintainance fees.

Guns won't erase magic, they'll complement it

They really don't need infinity plus one shields. They just need the standard shields that they usually have and literally any kind of water producing magic. Until the advent of self contained cartridges, rain was literally the number one cause of gun failure, because you can't light wet powder. Tons and tons of innovations were made, just to prevent that stuff from getting wet from wax sealed storage to literal umbrellas that you prop up when you want to fire, and it still got wet and useless regularly.

You seem to be ignoring that guns will have magic on their side, too.

alchemists are probably a big question here.

If alchemist and potion makers are doing the type of things that might lead them to discovering gunpowder, then having more of them and with more resources means you'd get gunpowder sooner.

But if the people messing with chemicals and such are more focused on magical properties and plants and such, then there wouldn't be people who would mix together gunpowder.

So yeah, as should be, dependent on the setting and how magic works in it.

Nope. Gun-guys will kill all the stinky wizzards

Well in my setting atomic reactions are themselves a form of "mundane" magic so suck it all of you.

Guns are special because they are not special.

Technological progress isn't an even distribution over time & space, or motivated by maximization of efficiency. Guns in the early modern era, while becoming a significant part of pike & shot, were still a combined arms force with cavalry charges and push-of-the-pike being a deciding factor in many battles.

The speed of adoption, spread of use and cultural production around guns is basically up to you if there's magic. Shit's magic. Looking at historical references can give you a rough idea to base things off of, but for what its worth, unless your campaign is somehow based around the exact point where modernism really starts being a thing, its not terribly important to be overly consistent. Its more than likely putting too much emphasis on detail will make things less interesting, less engaging, and less realistic given how often humans fuck up our own logistics.

Rules wise I think people have a hard time with it because of making combat overly granular time measurements and getting autistic about it, but that's opinions. Somewhere there are people having a blast playing phoenix command, and like, go for it. But damn.

Generally I've not encountered the cannon issue before. I'm used to settings not at full warfare, usually things like adventurer driven worlds keeps things small scale but with events with high power. Rarely do you see an army being the threat, it's usually the dude at the top that's the real threat.

this raises question as well.

I've been working on a fantasy setting with early modern era guns (ie muskets and pistols are just starting to be worked with, most guns very heavy and slow to load, and expensive).

And part of it, to make it fun for players, was that magic was being used to shortcut into more advanced guns, but those were thus very rare as they required very skilled enchanters to make.

So you can find light rifled muskets, but maybe 100 of those get made a year.
There are 2 revolvers. and only one person knows how to make the cartridges for it and can make maybe 50 a year.

BEST POST

seeEvery general worth his salt will realize that killin wizards is the dumbest idea ever, and court-martial any retard gun-luddite who tries to attack a wizard, that is if the Wizard isn't already wearing his magically enchanted Kevlar-like robe, hasn't prepared his combat-prescience spells to see the attack coming, and doesn't just drop you open a whole in the ground underneath you and bury you alive with a simple pit spell, or uses an entanglement spell just to look you in the eye before he whips out his magic never-wet gun loaded with seeking bullets and shots you right between the eyes.

You keep assuming that guns and magic are mutually exclusive, when any intelligent wizard/battlemage will see guns and immediately set about improving them and using them himself to his own benefit.

And this is why Harry Potter is poorly world-built for modern-day wizards

The premise so far has been that guns are invented, advanced, and used to wipe magic out.
So no they won't have magic on their side.

That's why in a high magic society I figured it would be a banned technology. Realistically thinking firearms are an end product and not a process for making anything else so in theory it would be easy to suppress it. Low magic it would take over, but I would imagine that mages suddenly become a commodity and become part of the ruling class, similar to how FMA has alchemists (albeit very different ones to what we're talking about) that if they meet the power requirement become part of the military and are given a lot of authority to keep them on-side.

In Harry Potter, a man with a shotgun will win if he can shoot before the wizard whips his wand around. It all comes down to who shoots first.

>Gun tech would definitely surpass magic

Gun tech would surpass shit like Meteor Swarm?

Warhammer has guns. It has flamethrowers, steam tanks and gyrocopters. Mages still rule battlegrounds.

False on both counts. Keeping a gun loaded, particularly early ones was bad for the gun leading to possibly lethal misfires. Second the first to use proper rank fire was fucking Napoleon. Nobunaga used ranked fire over a hundred years prior, but he had no interaction with Europe. Between horrendous accuracy and shit reload times and inefficiency there isn't much chance of guns outstripping a good mage enough to actually make them outdated.

this guy here.

So as said, depends on how magic works. A big thing for the setting I was working on is that magic gets much harder as you go from enchance>shift>block>create (the last being near impossible).

Also that human magic is much better at working at the time than being stored.

So magicians are very useful in armies, but are often supporting the artillery teams, enchancing and guiding the shots. Or to a lesser extent the arquebus, but there they spend more effort guiding and enchancing the soldiers and officers focus and resolve.

The fact that women are just slightly better as magicians (on average) than men, meant that while officers and infantry are still all male, auxillary positions became coed.

Oh. Are we secretly in a magic vs technology powerlevel thread?

Nope. Anyone willing to work with mages is a traitor and unworthy of his gun.
The true heroes of science will kill up to the last magician, witch and demonologist.

>implying guns aren't magic

I made a squeezing motion with a finger and that guy is spraying blood. Tell me that's not magic.

>arguing with people who think guns suddently changed everything, despite the fact firearms coexisted with everything else up to the 19th century at the very least

except in warhammer mage fire didn't make up the majority of the firepower (okay there were bits on the tabletop where the magic rules got out of hand but whatever), they were too rare and only the bright mages were all about the blasting.
Most wizards were used as supporting roles, enchancing and debuffing troops which could be fielded in larger numbers.

Sounds good for guns just starting to appear in a magical world. Perhaps the government could sponsor a local mage's guild, or make their own Enchanter assembly line to quickly enchant multiple rifles at once usig apprentices who each know one enchantment each, and meanwhile the kingdom will also fund apprentices to try to learn and assits the Revolver Wizard or both making them, learning their production, as well as possible research grant money to help fund further arcane research in refining and improving the technique. Add in federally contracted materil wizards and such, and eventually you'll ave Wild West level guns and usage in approximately 1-2 generations

Unless you have an in-universe reason for uns not working in the hands of anyone with magic abilities, this is impossible and is shity writing that only a middle-schooler who got an F in English would think is good

>That's why in a high magic society I figured Archmagister Colt will find a way to apply magic and gunsmithing togetherg together, copywritten under his Mage's Guild Charter, to become rich as fuck and create a new brand of magical war profiteering and alter the face of warfare forever. Eventually Archmagister Colt is able to charter his own Magical Firearms Guild, which is later further improved by the Arclord Browning.
>Years later, Magic/k/ becomes a thing
ftfy

Oh, you're just a retarded roleplayer trying to get (You)s. Carry on then, though this will be the last (You) you get from me.
ftfy

Yet you never see wizards use magic guns, because Rowling as a hack who probably has never even touched a gun in her life

>country hunts down it's own wizards
>suddenly evil wizards can do whatever they want
>they can teleport into king's room at night and murder him
>or even better charm him and rule the country
>no countermeasures because you killed all good mages that worked for government
>enemy army with mages invades
>they can call rain or fog and make your guns useless
>or summon monsters immune to mundane weapons

Brilliant.

Vernon points a gun at Hagrid

Magic makes them complacent and ironically, I believe stifles real progress. Instead of inventing and trying to overcome your environment. People tried to go the easy route and break physics.

Yeah they would make zero progression in magic.

That's a bit reductive on my reasoning. Yes that could be a thing, but I would imagine that it being restricted would be more along the lines of people only knowing at the highest echelons of magic and them actively stamping out anyone who gets close on any part of a firearm. The most important would be the alchemical side given that without that it's a stick that shoots something, like a crossbow or a wand which are existing technology. I mean gunpowder isn't really used for anything else is it? I mean the processes to make it aren't conducive to any other product that I can think of.

Is that why spells like Xereus or Dwellers decided battles? Or why in lore many battles were completely decided by mages? Look at Malekith or Teclis. Empire was able to survive Storm of Chaos only because elves lent them mages.

That's because the first guy who got epic spellcasting usurped the god of magic and rewrote the universe to make anyone who tries to upset the status quo explode in a cloud of gore. No save, just die

>Perhaps the government could sponsor a local mage's guild, or make their own Enchanter assembly line to quickly enchant multiple rifles at once usig apprentices who each know one enchantment each
Well part of making the setting was not to have one 'magical race'
so the races are good at magic in various ways.
Humans are great at using words and songs for magic, so most of their magic happens on use, and kinda suck at enchanting.
The elves who are good at enchanting physical things have a psychological problem that makes them not good at innovation. And are weird isolationists living in towers by the major human cities.

So a lot of the best guns are a combination of a specialized gunmaker who can work with enchantments, ordering simple but specialized parts from the elves.
But a lot of what you are talking about does happen.

Like the human rulers of each city have deals with the elves so they trade supplies for so many enchanted gunbarrels, cannon, whatever.

The first adventure going to start with the players at the twice yearly trade fairs at a towers finding out that almost all of the enchanted steel and iron for that year was already sold to the empire. For cannons.
War with the North was coming.

But yeah, it was advancing fast. The last major war (~40 years ago) was the first that guns and cannons with magic had a big part in, defeating an army with more magic but less guns and cannons. Next war will be the first big war between two major gunpowder using powers.

Also check out the Alloy of Law series for a good example of wild west guns with magic.

Dear gods no. Those Janissari guns were far from mass produced. They were works of art that were made special for each man. The men who used them were the special forces of their day.

Most people can't use magic and those people would flock to new technology.

And nothing stops mages from using guns.

>dwellers
well that was the weird imbalanced rules I was talking about.

And those lore battles are about a half dozen wizards possibly, and warhammer loves to focus on the heroes.

battles without those half dozen wizards typically depended more on the celestial wizard giving massive support to gunners, than on them shooting lightning bolts.

In every thread with buttblasted burgers who spend their welfare checks on guns.
So yes, every thread whenever guns are remotely mentioned.

What's to stop level 0s from picking up a level in mage or wizard? basically nothing. Lore-wise it's years of studying but just beat up a few goblins mechanically and you can fucking cast spells. Find a few other fledgling wizards, go adventuring, and you have mass spellcasters.

It's just that most people don't really have a deathwish. Even with magic, adventuring is dangerous