Martials can't do cool stuff

The movie Ironclad.

Eh, I mean I just ran a session where a newbie barbarian popped all his rage powers for the first time and ripped out two T-Rex fangs that I house-ruled as daggers and proceeded to blend a rage-wight and two ghouls with amazing rolls.

Meanwhile the druid just keeps calling thunder.

>Encouraging creative thinking without punishing mundane bare bones playing.
You done did good, user

>the basic mechanics the GM is supposed to use to arbitrate fucking suck

This.

I can respect that D&D gets people into the hobby. Hell, my first exposure to RPGs was D&D.

It suffers from Settlers of Catan effect, where people will learn it as their first "real" board game, but they just assume it's the only real one and the entire catalogue of other games is beyond their notice.

And then every day you hang out with your normie friends and suggest playing SmallWorld or Power Grid and every day they're like "nah i'd rather play catan" even though catan FUCKING SUCKS.

and then i killed myself.

My favorite GURPS moment has always been when the weapon master warrior decided to extra effort her move and attack while simultaneously unleashing multiple telegraphed rapid strikes targeted at the hydras neck.

She literally cleaved through five hydra heads in a single second, ending the encounter in a blaze of glory.

no generally it means that the mechanics for martial characters are less broadly applicable or numerically powerful.

>Whip out Catan on my tablet on a plane
>Frenchman with his girlfriend next to me asks if we can play
>Usually im a nice guy (TM) but I forget about all that when I'm on the app
>He grows more and more frustrated as I brutally crush his shit
>Robbing his resources, blocking his settlements , taking his ports
>He loses, only has like 4 points.
>Him and his girlfriend get up and leave their seats
>Wonder if they're going for a commiseratory toilet fuck.
>Don't see them for the rest of the flight
>Whole row of seats to myself fuck yeah

>SmallWorld

The issue isn't that Martials can't have kickass moments in combat. The issue is they are completly outstripped by mid-levels and that this is ALL they are ever good at, whereas any caster has a world of options and skills

>expend all your resources to rip out a dinosaur's fucking teeth
>only get some shitty daggers out of it
Those things better have spontaneously turned into magical items

What about not playing shit-tier rulesystems like 3.PF?

Skirmish? D&D 4e
Gritty? Mithras, gurps, wrfr
Bigger than life heroes? Exalted, M&M, Hero system

And so on...
Stop trying to work things out with one deprecated bloated piece of junk rulesystem

>and you're playing D&D
>what is 4e

4e is sort of an aberration in D&D's history, and despite all it's shortcomings it is really good at putting magical and martial characters on equal footing.

Heck, 4e even gave gritty a half decent go stronger than 3.5 did. It's disease, environment and lingering injuries rules are fucking brutal.

Mind you, it's not for all gritty games at all. It's still a rather empowered (The closest term I can think of, where the heroes can influence the world about them) sort of gritty. More 'Dark Sun' than 'Darkest Dungeon'. You are still a badass, even if the world hates you.

It's funny, because martials in 3.PF can do much crazier shit than any of those games you listed.

Most people mean to say "fighter" when they try to say "martial", but even fighters could do plenty of cool stuff right out of the box. Sure, not Nine Swords crazy unless you're high level and pick up some ridiculous feats, but what's happening in OP's gif can be done as low as level one. Hell, it's literally the Cleave feat.

It's all just memes getting out of hand, and it's a shame that some kids actually are taking all that vitriol seriously. Luckily, it's only the dumb and easily-influenced ones with a cynical streak, and no one would want to play with those kind of people anyway.

>but what's happening in OP's gif can be done as low as level one. Hell, it's literally the Cleave feat.
I don't see the guy making an extra attack against another creature in reach.

See the guy right behind, getting his face cut in half?

What sort of bullshit can a 3.pf martial pull off that's wilder than most things in Hero and basically anything in Exalted. I can pretty easily build a sidereal martial artist in Exalted that can kick everyone in the world so hard they have a sex change. And turn into a duck.

>Heck, 4e even gave gritty a half decent go stronger than 3.5 did. It's disease, environment and lingering injuries rules are fucking brutal.

Indeed! Sure it was designed with a stronger gamist approach (nothing wrong with that) but nevertheless it has a GOOD design all around. 3.PF in the other hand was "Rolemaster" meets "AD&D" and "lets keep only the shit stuff" approach.
5e is "the millenial's land of nothingness"

Huh, missed that. Too distracted by the first dude being bisected.

Since there's no level cap, and we can call anyone without "full" spellcasting progression a martial, there's tons of silly stuff, including turning into a duck, or having a chained attack that enables them to kick everyone in the world in a single round, minus the sex change and likely having some requirement like anyone not within ten miles of another person would be spared.

There's also plenty of lower level stuff, like a Gatecrasher being able to survive of the theoretical Elemental Plane of Death without any ill-effects, but really, we're talking a moot point.

3.5 is one of the worst system for new players in existence, though.

It is riddled with inconsistencies, exceptions, very strange or difficult to grasp rules, pitfalls, errors and worst case scenarios. It doesn't work as a game for an inexperienced DM, and it is just incredibly difficult to learn for a newcomer.

GURPS can be legit learnt in a seventh of the time taken to learn 3.5. The ST system can be legit mastered in a quarter of the time taken to understand the basics of 3.5. 3.5 is a horrendous first game, for both players and DM.

Don't forget, a third dude also gets his hand chopped off as well.

>we can call anyone without "full" spellcasting progression a martial

...what? Martial is 'No spellcasting'. Hence why Paladins are not Martials.

>It is riddled with inconsistencies, exceptions, very strange or difficult to grasp rules, pitfalls, errors and worst case scenarios.

Anyone could argue that about any game. It's just that 3.5 was popular enough for people to actually find an incentive to try,

>It doesn't work as a game for an inexperienced DM, and it is just incredibly difficult to learn for a newcomer.

Demonstrably false, just by looking at how 3rd edition single-handedly doubled the size of the role playing population.

Sure, there are easier games to learn, but it takes less than one session to learn the basics of 3.5, though you're right about "mastering" it would take much longer, if it's at all possible to claim a game that big could be mastered.

As a side note, GURPS is actually much harder to teach and learn, and requires an experienced GM just to assemble the game properly. From the players side, it's a little easier, but it's still riddled with inconsistencies, exceptions, very strange or difficult to grasp rules, pitfalls, errors and worst case scenarios.

Actually, Martial is anyone who has access to a spell list with less than six levels in it.

So a Paladin is a martial but a Bard isn't.

Can you define spellcasting?
Are the Nine Swords classes spellcasters, since maneuvers allow them to perform physics-defying feats?
What about the Variant Spell-less Paladin that has more supernatural abilities rather than casting spells? Is that a martial or not?

I usually just defined a martial as anyone with a full BAB.

That doesn't work because Rogues and Monks exist.

You should check out Open Legend. You can cause all kinds of cool effects and fluff them however you want. There are no classes or anything, so you can just create whatever character you want, and it's free.

>It's all just memes getting out of hand
Yeah, sure... if you play with only the core rulebook for an E6 game.

A good GM can work things out Level Adjusting classes and using mandatory campaign-tailored spell lists until hitting level 10-12, but going on will be progressivelly more and more difficult to handle.

3.PF it's broken on its very foundations: why on earth designing classes power by an arbitrary ammount of equipment they SHOULD have on a specific level? That's simply retarded!

Man it's fuckin hilarious how Mercer is making some serious "dramatic" nerd face while Greenwood is just grinning like the jolly old pervert we all know he is.

Mercer's got the carefully cultivated pube goatee and Greenwood just looks full Mall Santa. Like, one of them REALLY wants you to sit on his lap but at least he looks like he's having some kinda fun.

>that art for Open Legend
Holy shit is that Keith Thompson

>looks to me like Mercer is doing a satirical serious face what with the exaggerated eye winking

No wonder I've never been able to find players or a game on Shadowrun 4e on roll20.

He got a good story out of it user. That's worth much more than a magic item.

PF is even worse

Holy shit! I had to look at it again, but yup, there it goes

What the fuck is that guys belt made out of?
He shoudl have been bisected by that fucking belt stopped that

Holy shit...Japan knew the answer all along...armors made of belts!

>martials can't do cool stuff
means
>the system doesn't give martials any cool stuff to do which isn't available to everyone

And hasn't this topic been done to fucking death at this point?

Haven't 90% of the topics on the board been done to fucking death at this point?

Yeah but most of them haven't been done to death constantly for the entire lifetime of the board.

So, seeing as this is probably a d&d argument thread, can someone give me some arguments for and against different editions of D&D?

I'm planning to make a video comparing all the different editions of D&D and I need some more info on the pre-3.5 systems, though if anyone has anything insightful to say about the later ones I'm all ears.

>no OSR
Whelp.

Then the solution is to give martials more high-end options and not let yourself be choked by the noose of "realism."

I was with you until you said Exalted. If there was ever a system as fucked as 3.PF, it's that.

...

What the fuck are you talking about?

And swords are physics based while spells can be defined in lots of different conflicting ways depending on who's world you're referring to. Magic that obeys laws is more Vance or Butcher-esque than it is Tolkien or Lewis-esque, and both can be represented differently. Gandalf is more powerful than Aragorn because he's a higher being with magic, not because he can cast magic missile.

Both styles of magic have drawbacks depending on how the narrative works.
Gandalf, who can do lots of obscure shit, works great as an NPC because you can have him do a lot of stuff and not have to explain it; he's a great story element and semi-passive element. He can be a force that the PCs can manipulate and interact with directly, unlike a major country. He also adds an air of mystery to the arcane.

A magical-physics character like Harry Dresden, or Goku for that matter, has the advantage that because his powers are defined, he has a sense of scale in his world. Dresden is dwarfed by the winter queen and dwarfs Murphy (Frieza > pre-namek Goku > Krillin). You have to/get to be creative with his limited, predefined skill set and pull off wins by ingenuity. Dynamic characters like PCs work well like this. It also reduces magic to just another tool, however, just another element of the world. It's no longer a tightly controlled, highly valuable resource, something taught only from a master to a trusted apprentice, it becomes something anyone (or some anyones, if magic is hereditary) can do. No more compelling or powerful than a sharp piece of iron.

>dude in the back just jumps off the wall

I don't know why, when you guys think "compelling martial" you think "ridiculous over-the-top" and not "gritty combat with lots of manners and actions decided on in the moment". I'm way more invested in a fighter who has to use his wits to beat enemies in creative ways than a fighter who has a pre-defined list of sword-like abilities.

It's never been about "a fighter can't do anything good in combat". It's the fact that other classes have far more options which are viable. This is especially apparent outside of combat. None of the fighter class features are very useful outside combat. Fighter doesn't get many skill points per level. Any feats which make you better outside combat are equally available to other classes, as are magic items. Outside of combat, there is nothing a fighter can contribute that would not be easily outshined by another class.

This would be fine if they were the best in combat, but in combat, they are easily replaced. Cleric and Druid can take very cheap options to get stats akin to a full-level fighter, while still retaining their magic. Paladins fight just as well as fighters, but have healing, Smite Evil, and magic. Wizards can summon one or more creatures that can be close to a fighter each, or in some cases stronger, because they have special abilities as well. The wizard gets to keep their turn while this is going on as well.

Sure, you can do cool stuff as a Martial, but you have to avoid trap feats (Here, have 3 HP and that's it) and put much more investment into it than any other magic class would.

It's never been "useless in an absolute scale", it's always been "useless compared to the other classes."

If your only exposure to these arguments is people in Veeky Forums threads, it can obviously sound hyperbolic, but there are many in-depth explanations that people on Veeky Forums paraphrase and half-reference lazily because they've said it so many times before.

I don't mind, so long as the playable casters are all just slinging glorified party tricks and misdirection.

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/38201/what-are-tiers-and-what-tier-is-each-class

This is a good summary with links to explanations.

Read the thread, jesus christ are you an infant?

I wouldn't be surprised if Dresden eclipses the Winter Queen by the end of the series, though.

>GURPS is actually much harder to teach and learn, requires and experienced GM just to assemble the game properly.

u wot?

>Buy stats, skills, and powers with points. Limiting your roleplaying options (insert spiel about how limitations breed creativity) gives you more points to use. All the agency.
>Skills are relative to relevant attribute. Untrained skills use defaults, and defaults suck.
>Here's 3d6 (read as "three regular old dice"). Roll under [skill] for everything related to a challenge or combat. Only rolls for damage and rolls for certain checks don't use this, and those are more relevant for the GM than the player.
>Combat can be as tactical or as abstract as you want, but assuming a newcomer: you have very logical options like putting all your effort into an attack, or feinting, or grabbing, which you can basically always _try_ to do, even if you don't have the special feat for it. Describe what cool thing is in your head and the GM can probably model it quickly. You get to do one thing a turn, fastest actor to slowest.
>When you receive an attack you actually have a choice on how you want to deal with it. Dive for the ground? Yes. Dodge and take a step back? Yes. Use the goblin you're throttling as a shield? Yes. All the agency!

A player has just learned GURPS. All the stupid bookkeeping happens before play, and all the fiddly bits are pretty much right there on the sheet. d20 has different concerns, including wtf is AC? CMD or CMB? How do I find these modifiers? Which die to I roll? etc

The rest of my scoffing depends on what you desire to assemble or run. Some of the sourcebooks are more about advice on how to run or craft certain games and worlds than they are about adventures. Fantasy is an amazing world-building book, for example. Some of them are basically applications of the rules with all the heavy lifting done for you, like Spaceships. However, Dungeon Fantasy is basically OG DnD in GURPS. Super easy to run with most modules.

I think he's talking about how the GM needs to curate what mechanics are and aren't being used, and to be clear on what kinds of abilities are suitable.

>and that this is ALL they are ever good at
This seems odd, for a couple of reasons - one, isn't there a thing about martials having retainers, men at arms kinda deal?
Relatedly, a big part of what makes ""martials"" through history and legend great is that they and their deeds were inspiring and intimidating - is this purely something that should be RP'd (putting the blame on shitty players and DM's), or should it be codified, meaning it's the rules' fault?

Thank's man, will try it out as soon as the next thread pops up (also in the next 1-2 hours)

3.5 was my first system, it wasn't all that hard to learn in comparison to other systems i've played.

I like it a heck of a lot more than 5e or shadowrun

Google thinks it's from Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.

>remove Wild Shape
>remove cleric heavy armor
>remove combat summing, change to ritual spells only
>add more high level combat feats with fighter level prerequisites
This fixes most of 3.X's problems.

No it doesn't.

Not even close

We had it in two boys. Somehow this thread got 75 replies deep.

this wasn't really a problem until 3.0. There's a reason second edition had things like weapon spec- a palladin will never be as good in a fight as a fighter, a wizard will never be able to completely replace a thief, and a priest just can't quite keep up with a wizard or a fighter- it's stuck in between.

qwixalted is okay

The greatest hero in the history of storytelling was a martial.

>u wot?
he is right, since there is no corebook

also,
>complaining about simple concepts like AC, CMD, and CMB

I think he might be the idiot here.

Personally I'm waiting for Murphy to overextend herself over her triple inferiority complex and get herself killed because of her decreased mobility and refusing any kind of help, including magical.
But not before Murphy guilts Dresden into accompanying him on a mission that is far out of her league because "you're a sexist and you think I can't do it because I'm a woman and you want to protect me waaaah"

Did you stop reading after the third book or something?

nigga Väinämöinen wasn't a martial

WE WUZ MARTIALS AND SHIIET!

isn't that Gilgamesh?

I'm caught up. Murphy still thinks people underestimate her because she's short, female and mundane (and those who don't know her still do). But she's going to start slowing down, especially with her leg, and she doesn't yet have a power booster. She fucked up a Sword because, just like Dresden in Grave Peril, she just didn't get that it's not all about physics and leverage and shit. She lost because she swung for the wrong reasons, not because she didn't train enough.
I mean come on, this is a woman who had to make a physical effort in Proven Guilty to accept someone's hand to help her up after she tripped and fell. She is pathologically afraid of being seen as weak, so she has to do it on her own to prove to them (and herself) that she is strong, so she can't accept help, magic or mundane.

Yeah but she's not that strong without help. Nobody is, really. The people that are strong all got that way by accepting outside help in the first place.

Power source: 2/3 Divine
joking of course, abilities-wise, they're both pure martial

The shitposting flew right over your head.

That's the point. She thinks she's doing it all herself because in order to keep her ego intact she has to believe that.
This is why I believe she's in denial about why she and Rich divorced. My theory is that it started as about the kids thing (and Murphy admitted in a later book that yes, she did have a desire to have kids) but she didn't want to sacrifice being Badass Lady Coo for it because her entire career was predicated on her being a woman by mattering. But she couldn't admit that it did matter (as it would in any active profession) or she reflexively felt guilty about it so she projected her own fear of weakness onto Rich. He's not afraid of being seen as weak by the other cops because of Murphy, it's always been the other way around. Why would she train so hard otherwise?

Unfortunately, I haven't seen many systems that fix this adequately.

Playing 4th ed, they seemed to have fixed this by turning everything unique about a class into some predefined powers that are rather narrow and specific. Healers can't heal without hitting something, wizards can't cast anything but rituals outside of combat. This solution requires either homebrewing or improvising -everything- that isn't combat and because that requires GM intervention, the GM can shut down anything they don't want to happen. Makes it a lot harder to do things that are somewhat disruptive, like creative prison breaking when the GM wants you to stay put. I'm most salty about this solution because the fighter gets even less to do and is even less distinct, there's almost no difference between an archer and a mage besides the mage getting a greater variety of effects.

The tome of battle and solutions like it just turn fighters into magic users, gives them powers that an match their peers, but this removes the individuality of a purely mundane martial. Can't well be Sir Lancelot when you have to spit flames from your sword to matter.

Solutions where mages are just underpowered have the issue that they just flip places with the fighter. The only spells that deal damage are high level and costly? Very little utility out of the rest of them? Now no one wants to be a wizard because they can't do anything.

Personally, I like the solution of ADnD best, good spells require more time to cast and disrupting the spell is both easy and potentially catastrophic. Multiple round casting is also a thing in 3.x, but it doesn't really matter till much later on. ADnD though? Easy as hell to turn the wizard into pudding by interrupting his spell. That gives the wizard a major drawback that allows unhindered classes to shine, but keeps enough firepower to make it a tempting option at character creation.