I've only been playing since M12, so that may color my perceptions a bit, but this has bothered me for a while.
I remember starting out and playing shitty spider tribal garbage. I remember being really bad in a hundred different ways. And I remember being told that Reclaim is a bad card.
I believed it. They explained card advantage and how it essentially makes you skip a draw. Their arguments made sense.
But now that it has been a couple of years, I'm starting to question it. Essentially, because of pic related. I'm not saying Reclaim is even remotely as powerful as these titans, but why it is so garbage if it is so similar?
Why are cards like Nature's Spiral and Revive more likely used as the fourth "Regrowth" in EDH?
Caleb Ramirez
Generally speaking, your library is often much bigger than your graveyard. It's also much more difficult for an opponent to interact with a library than with a graveyard.
What it comes down to is you have much more choice and options with Vampiric Tutor than with Reclaim, and that's what makes Vampiric Tutor so much more powerful.
Benjamin Baker
But is it not true than Regrowth is tremendously powerful as well?
Or is Regrowth ONLY that powerful in formats with restricted cards?
Thomas Cox
Reclaim is a bad card because a strictly better version exists. It's like playing Terror over Doomblade.
Jacob Roberts
But people don't even run that one. I knew of it, but didn't want to muddle the issue, since the other ones are so one to one.
Also, you can regenerate from a doom blade. I get artifact creatures are more common than regen, but I figured I'd mention it.
Caleb Hernandez
Demonic Tutor is a much stronger card than Regrowth. Vampiric Tutor is still a good card even when Reclaim or Noxious Revival aren't, because it's only a weaker version of a much stronger card.
Tyler Carter
the difference is in why you use recursion vs why you use a tutor. tutors reduce variability, they get you a card you might not otherwise have seen. vampiric tutor makes you skip an otherwise random draw to get that card, but still delivers on what the tutor is about.
recursion is generally about repeated access to powerful effects. regrowth gets you back the thing immediately while reclaim, at best, makes you wait through your upkeep and draw step before you have access to it. without jumping through more hoops, reclaim doesn't give you the access you want, and denies you access to new cards in the process.
Mason Sanchez
Regrowth is card advantage neutral; you spend a card, and you get a card.
Reclaim is card disadvantage; you spend a card and lose your next card draw to get a card. You're 2-for-1ing yourself.
Robert Baker
his point is that the same is true for vampiric tutor, but no one says vampiric tutor is a bad card.
Thomas Gonzalez
Because for Reclaim to do anything, you need to have already seen the card. For all relevant intents and purposes, Vampiric Tutor does the same job as Reclaim and more.
Adrian Watson
Reclaim (noxious revival) beats vamp tutor when every copy of what you want is in the graveyard. This is because the odds of something being in your deck are better than those things being in your graveyard. There are going to be cases where this changes (mill decks mostly) but for the majority of your games what you are looking for at any moment will be more likely to be in your deck than your graveyard.
Ethan Carter
Well, you said it yourself, Mill doesn't exist in any relevant capacity. Sure, if you are playing fun kitchentable jank and your buddy is running his shitty mill deck and you have ONLY access to Reclaim or Revival, you can play it. But in that case, it's still shit because you are playing against mill and chances are good that he'll just mill it away again.
Evan Rogers
Thats my first post in the thread. I actually had the same question last night at the shop i basically showed him by letting him use his revivals as vamp tutors. Nothing really replaces getting to use the card. he plays infect with revivals and a miracle pump spell in modern
Connor Campbell
Good discussion. I guess my perspective on how powerful Regrowth was was off the mark.
I mean, hell, just look at what it is legal in compared to Demonic Tutor. You could run 4 copies of it in any format where it has been printed. Unlike D which is straight banned.
And Regrowth did get off the Restricted list of Vintage like last year, where Regrowthing Ancestral Recall is completely legal.
I still wonder if Reclaim is better than something like Nature's Spiral/Revive in EDH, but those cards don't usually see play. It is all about the Eternal Witness.
Nathaniel King
Reclaim is still slightly worse than Vamp. Tutor strictly in terms of card advantage.
Say your deck has 50 cards in it. If you cast Vamp. Tutor, your deck will still have 50 cards in it and when you draw for turn your deck will be down to 49 randomized cards that where randomized at 49 cards.
If you cast Reclaim, your deck is now 51 cards and 50 when you draw a card. That leaves you at 50 randomized cards randomized at the last time you shuffled.
Camden Green
I don't think you have any idea what card advantage means, but your post is completely incoherent so maybe I'm wrong.
If you're saying "it's better to have 49 randomized cards in your library than 50 randomized cards in your library" then this is clearly wrong at least some of the time.
Ethan Bennett
What are you going to Reclaim on turn 1? A fetchland at best? Is the 1 mana discount really worth -1 card?
At the same time, Vampiric Tutor guarantees a 2 drop draw on T2, or a second land if you have the 2 drop already.
The difference is that on T1 your library has cards and your graveyard doesn't
Luis Gonzalez
Thinning and reshuffling contribute slightly to card advantage by increasing the chances of drawing a particular spell.
It's would of been better to say deck thinning over card advantage.
>it's better to have 49 randomized cards in your library than 50 randomized cards in your library Enlighten me as to why this would be wrong some of the time? The only time I can think of is against mill.
Nathan Price
because regrowth and reclaim give you back a card that you already tried to play and didn't win you the game, while demonic tutor and vampiric tutor usually give you a certainly broken card that wins you the game on the spot, or at worst completely fixes a bad starting hand and both those things completely outweight the importance of card advantage.Vampiric tutor into your second land might be better than a mulligan.
Also vampiric tutor looks as good as demonic tutor because it's an efficient use of your first turn.Turn 1 reclaim? not looking good, therefore part of the advantage of costing 1 mana is gone.
Jaxson King
Adding to , tutors are straight up more versatile. Unless you've found /every/ copy in your deck, a tutor can be used to repeat a powerful effect.
Henry Rogers
wew lad
Luis Lopez
The argument about turn 1 makes sense, even if it isn't the primary reason, it somehow made the whole thing click.
I wonder how much a card that reclaimed your whole yard at instant speed would cost.
Mason Perry
So it's primarily based on usage cases. Regrowth effects are frequently used for late game flexibility. This means that if you're putting a regrowth effect in a deck you care about trying to play a longer game, where factors such as card advantage are absolutely crucial to victory.
Conversely tutors are more combo oriented cards. You don't care about maintaining card advantage into later turns if it means winning next turn.