/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Running up five walls and the ceiling, clicking your heels three times and spinning round like a asshole to cast shit is gay.

Refuse to play it.

Well shit, ya.
He dislikes the system too. He already has it hard enough not jizzing himself out of anger over standard combat.

I am going to read though it, but I am already suggesting:

>Difficulty
Target's Banality
>Pool
Art + Realm
>Result
Standard

Honestly though, anything would be better than the "oldin' days" he told me about with the boon cards.

The new rules are bad, and I won't be using them.

What happened during your Durance changes you according to what happened to you/what your Keeper did to you. What happens after you make your escape is up to you, including how you deal with what you've been changed into.

Having it be so goddamn heavy-handed a metaphor for abuse is just bad design, in my opinion, and it actively limits the number of stories you can tell and characters you can create just to be oh so clever.

No, sir, I don't like it.

>The new rules are bad, and I won't be using them.
What changed?

It was actually about how you escaped, however since Dave got axed, it's gone back to representing the kind of stuff you experienced in your Durance.

So someone who was subjected to horrifying experiments, parts of their body replaced with "space age" shit by their Alien Keepers, is Wizened.

Oh, that got re-written?

Ok, interest in 2e just rose by about thirty points.

Yeah, I felt the same way when I read that.
Everything posted since Rose took over is the stuff taking the changes into account.

Also there's more flexibility. Not every Gentry might send Huntsmen after their Changeling puppets. They might even forget about them for a decade or two.

Easing way back on the Huntsmen, too? There's another thirty points right there (would've been more if they'd just gotten rid of them or just made them princes of the hobgoblins or something).

Kiths are still decoupled from specific Seemings, right? I liked the idea of that being core.

There is no conspiracy to make traditional games politically correct. Characters in fiction and gaming communities simply change with respect to the latest cultural values. But you fedora-tipping cancerous fucks always blame imaginary SocJus boogeymen when people start hating you for the shit that you do. As long as you continue to refuse act like decent human beings, people will keep noticing.

But of course, you will keep blaming imaginary "SJWs", "poseurs" and "normies" when you the public hates you for the scum you are. And let's not even get started on how you all react to games becoming more popular and easily accessible.

???

That's something that hasn't been confirmed yet.

Just some stale old pasta some moron thinks we'll buy.

What the fuck is up with that gun?

Anime, that's what.

Reminder that in a vs discussion the non mage splat player uses reasonable examples while the magefaggot minmaxes up the wall and makes sure their mage example is specially tailored to kill the other splat.

Mages don't need to minimax to fuck up woofs.
Deal with it.

...

Even magefagging was better than this slow and painful death.
Considering that Alchemist's Touch didn't grant blanket immunity against aggravated damage, why should kinetic shield work against woofs eating human flesh for essence which actually causes aggravated?

The last discussion cited mostly cited Shielding Practices of the various Arcana which only require two dots and possessed by both starting characters and often by mages outside their Ruling Arcana.

It's actually the exact opposite of min/maxing powergaming.

What it does demonstrate, however, was the crossover effect of DaveB's very intentional 2e game design decision to eradicate what he described as "the speed bumps" in the Arcana and Practices that artificially limited certain abilities and effects for game balance. For example, all types of substances and forces can now be controlled by the Practices in Matter and Forces, respectively, and humans can similarly be affected by Life from Life 1 onward.

In mage vs. mage contests or mages vs. their high level antagonists, this design decision is merely interesting. However, it resulted in a significant power bump to mages vs. other splats, when mages were already strong in comparison. Luckily, DaveB also couldn't care less about crossover, only that Mage's rules followed and were consistent with its internal setting and themes.

I don't think Mage is a good game to play "modern wizards". What other options are available?

Why isn't it my friend,

Because the power level is ridiculously high and little about the magic feels like "real" occult practices. And no, I don't think Ascension did this any better.

if only withstand wasn't such a joke mages all need prime to stand a chance and paradox has no teeth.

Shut the fuck up, asshole. Post something interesting or post nothing at all.

>why should kinetic shield work against woofs eating human flesh for essence which actually causes aggravated?

Because woofs don't magically consume human flesh from afar. They first need to grapple or otherwise physically attack and neutralize or kill their prey before consumption. If they cannot do so because such attacks do kinetic damage, and thus defended against, no flesh will be consumed. It's immaterial that the consumption does aggravated damage (although most versions of Kinetic Shield still provide Armor Against Aggravated damage, and without consideration for other defense like Forces Mage Armor).

The "hedge wizard" abilities in the 2e cod core aren't bad, really. If you wanted a game focused around them, you could reprice some of the merits/abilities to match the other splats and give you a number to start the game with.

Don't feed the asshole, and don't get that shit started again.

>if only withstand wasn't such a joke mages all need prime to stand a chance and paradox has no teeth.

I think the complaints about Withstand are mostly theoretical and overblown. Magic is supposed to be dangerous and mage society exists as a slightly more amicable mutually assured destruction scenario. The mechanics seem to emphasize this setting element.

Where is this kinetic shield spell coming from? I read the 2e core book and haven't found this spell yet?

Stop.

It made the two threads before this so bad they're radioactive.

Please.

Kinetic Shield is creative thaumaturgy unsing Forces Shielding, but it's based almost word for word on Matter 2's Alchemist's Touch, except instead types of forces are substituted for materials.

Relax. Discussion of rules is appropriate for the forum, and we *should* be able to discuss them without hyperbolic, white room combat splat vs. splat nonsense.

I had the impression most of them were more psychic in nature, but I guess it's an option. I could use Second Sign as a base, but the powers were ridiculously weak and difficult to get back in 1e and converting it would already be super tough.

No it just makes a game full of masters boring unless the characters and npcs act retarded i've seen it in application. the st had to cheat ever confrontation to make it have any fucking stakes without resulting in dead pcs every other game. Masters in 2e are better sounding on paper and boring as sin in application. this wasn't the case in 1e unless your st let you abuse ritual casting.

So, DaveB had mentioned that he still supposedly posts here, but does so as an user without his tripcode.

I'm curious if he commented on the heated discussions in the last few threads, and if so, if he actually answered any of the disputed points.

>And no, I'm not Dave.

Given that the older the vampire, the less nourishing human blood becomes and how they transition to kindred blood eventually, what the hell did Caine have to feed on to gain sustenance?

Cain was "special," His plot-armor powers rendered him immune to game rules and mechanics.

Anyone ever play in a WoD setting in a PBP forum RPG?

Unknown Armies seems cool, but I haven't played it or read it all the way through

A snipped creation myth from the Assamite Clanbook Revised, penned by Clayton Oliver, involved Haqim as the trusted head of a city state's army. The king royal family was seduced and transformed by Caine, and although Haqim managed to kill the royals, Caine just killed the city anyway. The story spoke of him creating earthquakes with his hands, then the blood of the city just gouting up into the sky and across to him.

> And then, as the lord of the armies watched in horror, the demon's rage took him and his blood boiled. With a single stamp of his foot, Khayyin shook the ground, and the buildings of En'esh toppled. With a mighty howl, he breathed out a firestorm and scorched the city's fields. He spread his arms wide and drew in breath, and the blood of the people of En'esh flowed into him like a river.

So Caine is so badass he doesn't even need to bite to drain, and if he ever lost his shit an entire village, town or city might show up exsanguinated with no visible signs of trauma.

Mages don't just choose from a list of spells. There are the spell examples, but they can also create their own spells with Creative Thaumaturgy. The anons arguing for a basis on Alchemist's Touch don't seem to get that. It was my understanding that the kinetic shield being argued was a barrier of sorts, not making the Mage's body inherently immune to kinetic energy. Whether or not the shield would block aggravated damage or not would really be up to the ST, because its their job to put their foot down when they feel like original spells are too strong or don't have enough drawbacks. For example, they could rule that the kinetic shield could no-sell mundane or natural attacks of bashing and lethal damage, but that the shield could only block a number of aggravated attacks equal to its potency, no Clash.

That's really fucked up, but also fucking amazing.

Speaking of Caine already

>Khayyin

What are some other names, actual names, for him that have been used in the fluff?

The Cabbie

Alchemist's touch gives a basis that makes sense given how it and a forces variant. There is no power that makes you completely immune without provoking a clash. You can't just make a power that says absolutely no and at the same time no clash of wits. Also any celerity/acceleration based power would counter a kinetic shield if you use clash of wills rules.

>Alchemist's touch gives a basis that makes sense given how it and a forces variant would be word for word the same except forces instead of matter.

>Alchemist's touch gives a basis that makes sense given how it and a forces variant.
And you can use it if you want, but it's by no means a hard rule, or operates off of a hard rule outlined somewhere else.

>There is no power that makes you completely immune without provoking a clash.
Except Shielding explicitly gives you blanket immunity to mundane or natural phenomena under the purview of the Arcanum. If you feel that this is too powerful, the books outline ways to create drawbacks for original spells. Like having to spend a mana point, or Reach. Not only that, but what I said, making the spell only able to block a number of aggravated attacks equal to its potency, is actually something based off of the rules. Shielding spells block a number of supernatural attacks equal to potency, and cause a Clash. Normal aggravated attacks wouldn't cause a Clash, because they aren't supernatural.

>Also any celerity/acceleration based power would counter a kinetic shield if you use clash of wills rules
They could, potentially. You would have to win the Clash. For vampires its Blood Potency + Discipline dots + bonuses (Duration, Willpower) as outlined in Requiem 2e on p.126. They also have to be aware that powers are clashing to spend Willpower, and the example outlines that they have to sure that powers are clashing, meaning they have to be aware that the Mage is Shielding.

During Clashes, Mages get Gnosis + Arcanum rating + bonuses (Willpower, Duration, Advanced Potency) and are always aware when their spells are clashing, as outlined on 2e p.118. Shielding being a two dot practice means that even Disciples have a free Reach to allocate to either Advanced Potency or Duration, and could spend another to get both. Probably the most likely option over instant casting, as Shielding spells are something put up in preparation while Mage Armor is the go-to reaction, being a reflexive attainment. I have another point, but the post is getting too long.

Not really clear on one point in Demon tD
Can Demons tradr back pieces of cover to the people they bought them from ? To other demons ? To other humans ?
Maybe I missed it but I don't recall anything explicit about that in the core

Now, something that I'm not actually clear on just from reading the books is whether winning the Clash cancels out the Shielding spell entirely, or means that you just knock a potency off of it, because the rules for Clash of Wills in all three books say that "Victory of one power in a clash does not mean the immediate cancellation of all the others, save in cases where only one power can endure". That's from Requiem 2e p.126, Awakening 2e p.118, and Forsaken 2e p. 115. So if you wanted to break a Shielding spell, would you have to win enough Clashes to completely degrade its Potency? If so, the way I outlined it means normal aggravated attacks would be better.

It's not a number of attacks you retard it's damage. Alchemist's touch blocks damage based on potency it cannot block attacks outright. It doesn't matter how the agg damage is done mages don't have a way to separate it. Attacks already degrade the shield. Again,you can't just make an I'm immune to X without a flaw. The current framework has already the system in place and nothing says both Now while being immune to clashes. You can houserule otherwise but we have to use actual powers here as they are the actual basis for spells.

Isn't it more logical that a success in a clash of wills to pass a shielding does exactly that : pass the shield, and use up one of the uses against supernatural attacks
The shield is still up, but you broke through it
On an exceptional success, the shield is completely dispelled
I'd rule it that way

go cry me a fucking river and drown yourself in it.

what a weenie

>It's not a number of attacks you retard it's damage
Yeah, for Alchemist's Touch. Doesn't mean that every Shielding spell you make has to work like that.

That makes sense.

Once again magefags make up, twist or willfully misinterpret rules to make their splat as overpowered as can be.

In clash of wills winning means you win it for that clash. If the opponent kinetic blows and wins it bypasses the shield and does the full brunt of the damage.

learn the fucking rules of the game or don't bother pretending you know.

What rules?

>These spells usually provide blanket immunity to natural or
mundane phenomena,

literal immunity. go fuck off

>while protecting against a number of supernatural attacks equal to the spell’s Potency

number of attacks

these fuckers cant read

Number of attacks basically means the shielding is trying to loop hole total immunity which means it would be subject to clash of wills. Again the game has rules stop trying to twist them, mages are already powerful without this bullshit.

They seem to think that because Alchemist's Touch says it doesn't effect Aggravated Damage without Reach that all Shielding spells should work like that, despite not being outlined anywhere else in the book except for a spell example. Desperate for any edge they can get, I suppose.

I dont think anything like that, so fuck off.

You dont have to base it on alchemists touch you dense fucks.

You can creative thaum it any way you damn well like within the creative thaum rules. Go read them, everything has already been posted and it all complies with rules as written.

Creative shielding gives blanket immunity, and stops number of supernatural attacks equal to potency is CREATIVE THAUM rules, folk just mention alchemists touch because you retards dont understand creative thaum and need a similar example.

>Creative shielding gives blanket immunity, and stops number of supernatural attacks equal to potency is CREATIVE THAUM rules, folk just mention alchemists touch because you retards dont understand creative thaum and need a similar example.

ITS. ALSO. SUBJECT. TO. CLASH. OF WILLS. IT'S ALSO IN THE FUCKING RULES.

What the fuck?

Did you read what you typed. You are the one trying to twist the rules or come up with utter bullshit. Mages are powerful, get over it.

Who is twisting rules?

2e p.126-127
"Most commonly with the Practice of Shielding (••), a spell
may grant protection from forces under the Arcanum’s purview.
These spells usually provide blanket immunity to natural or
mundane phenomena, while protecting against a number of
supernatural attacks equal to the spell’s Potency. Such attacks
must win a Clash of Wills to affect the target."

Literally what it says. So if you win the Clash, your power works and a Potency is knocked off, but the spell is still up until it loses all Potency. And nowhere does it say that supernatural attacks bypass Shielding spells if they do aggravated damage. Try reading. Alchemist's Touch doesn't set the standard for all Shielding spells. It can be your standard, but it doesn't have to be everybody's.

IF SAID SUPERNATURAL POWER CONFLICTS WITH SAID SHIELDING.

LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASH OF WILLS EVER.

Omg, retards. you dont just get a clash of wills for every supernatural attack you fucking mongoloid it has to actually be a conflicting effect

Clash's still only occur when their is a competing actual power to go against. Not every attack from a supernatural character.

What these fuckers not understand how clashes work.

Yes, supernatural attacks invoke a Clash. Who said they didn't?

Yes, I did. it's attempting to use wording in a way to make it's point. if you are immune to everything for x number of attacks you are immune to everything. Stop trying to pretend that you can be both immune to everything and not provoke a clash of wills. If I sound repetitive it's because you're to stupid to understand how this works.

What are you talking about?

Being supernatural does not mean your mundane attacks provoke clash of wills.

You are immune to everything that doesnt provoke a clash of wills, which is a power that is in conflict with the shielding spell.

how fucking hard is this to understand?

this idiot.

For example, they could rule that the kinetic shield could no-sell mundane or natural attacks of bashing and lethal damage, but that the shield could only block a number of aggravated attacks equal to its potency, no Clash

Well, a punch isn't made supernatural because it's a vampire doing the punching. Obviously the mechanics intended it to be a power vs power situation, because it's always X supernatural strength stat plus specific power rating vs same.

>For example, they could rule that the kinetic shield could no-sell mundane or natural attacks of bashing and lethal damage, but that the shield could only block a number of aggravated attacks equal to its potency, no Clash
This doesn't break or twist any rules at all. Shielding spells provide blanket immunity to natural and mundane things. That's explicit.

Pretty hard, apparently.

Yes but other supernaturals cannot do agg without powers or acceleration like offensive skills. There are very few natural sources of agg in the game.

Well, natural aggravated damage is what I meant. Obviously supernatural powers cause a Clash.

hunter the vigil has witch finders witch gives you the ability to play a magically gifted hunter. I have generally used their rules to create mages that arn't OP gods.

I believe so, yes

I mostly remember it being Mage light, but it's worth a shot.

What, Huntsmen were an interesting antagonist. It seemed obvious to me they didn't always have to be used. They were a sort of ultimate fight for changelings, what is so bad about that?

They should need prime, it's the core of magic itself.

It seems a real stretch to go from that to "all kinetic damage"

>You dont have to base it on alchemists touch you dense fucks.

You don't have to, but why the heck wouldn't you.

You can fashion a kinetic shield spell by doing virtually nothing more mechanically than than changing the words "material" and "substance" to "force."

It appears the only reason offered not to do so is because such a kinetic shield is purportedly too powerful or useful a spell at two dots, particularly in crossover. These crossover / game balance justifications go directly against the express design philosophy of the Practices and Arcana in Mage 2e which explicitly rejects artificial limiters for "balance."

The goal should not be to make mages weaker to protect splats outside the Mage gameline, but rather come up with more creative means to combat mages, if that really is a priority in your own game.

Simply, a combatant who attempts brute force attacks against a mage who specializes in control of the fundamental energies of the universe deserves not only to lose, but to lose badly. There's no special snowflake werewolf, vampire or changeling exception to Forces (or other Arcana), and there is no doubt at all that's what was intended in Mage.

It would be great if Dave finally published the Mage FAQ and put these tiresome debates to bed once and for all. At least OPP *should* have to deal with them in the upcoming Crossover Chronicles, if that too ever sees the light of day.

>Changeling?????????

>Being supernatural does not mean your mundane attacks provoke clash of wills.

No matter how many times you might explain this, it will not penetrate.

>They should need prime, it's the core of magic itself.

There's almost never a need for conjunctive Arcana outside of some transformations. None of the designers want to go back to anything close to the mess that was Ascension's creative thaumaturgy system.

>On an exceptional success, the shield is completely dispelled
Sure houserule it any way you want, but I'm strongly against quoted part, exceptional successes in CoW are absolutely unsystematic.

it still sucks that at adept and master, opponents don't stand a chance if they don't have the arcana or break the rules. paradox isn't a deterrent with how shitty it is.