/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Apocalypse

Should have thought about it before posting, but just giving them Protean and a few devotions/merits could probably emulate vicissitude without needing to brew up a whole discipline

Glasswalkers sounds Apocalypse.

Do 2e mages need mana to even function? No one ever seems to talk about it as a constraint of any sort.

Ruling Arcana? No

Common Arcana? Yes

From the sounds of these threads, it doesn't seem to matter what your arcana is, if you can just justify anything away with your ruling arcana.

Not really.
However it can sure make your life easier.

What about when you combine arcana for spells? Like those forces 2 + space 3 things from last thread?

Yep, if you use a non-Ruling spell in a non-praxis, non-rote spell, then you've got to pay a 1 Mana tax.

However people generally don't learn that many spells outside of their Ruling Arcana. Especially when they can get a 3rd Ruling Arcanum with their Legacy.

At least, not until they get particuarly powerful, or decide to generalise.

>No one ever seems to talk about it as a constraint of any sort.
Because it's not really a big one. Also, these hypothetical situations never really get specific. It's usually just "Can a Mage do X?" and then the answer comes back "As a Y Path Mage, you can easily do X with this many dots." Rarely are questions like "How could a Moros stop someone from bleeding out?" to which him spending a mana point to use the Common Arcanum of Life could be an answer.

The short answer? You can't.

But if you wanted to roughly parallel it, perhaps a Homid Ragabash? Lupus are rarer than a 60 year old virgin in the GW, and although Metis -

You know what? Fuck it. Play a Ragabash Metis and claim that his affliction is his sheer incompetence and vanity. If you can last a full session without the rest of the pack tearing your throat out for compromising the entire stakeout because you saw a Hooters restaurant a block or so away, more power to you.

Well, yeah. It's the same as "white room" bullshit - it never works out in-game like the Avengers Training Facility, does it? Usually whoever gets the drop on the other party wins, combat is an unforgiving bitch in these games. So many other factors, too - how worn down the characters are, how prepared they are, is it home turf or unfamiliar surrounds (or hostile ones), different advantages (and weaknesses) for different times of day or year... and then sorting out the crossover rules alone is good for another year of arguing.

The only winning move in these arguments is not to play.

Which is exactly why Mage shouldn't be allowed in crossover scenarios. They have so many ways of surviving ambushes and setting up ludicrous preparations.

I'm always disappointed there wasn't a Man In Black legacy for the Guardian Order. I know they got a nod, but still. It'd be even more confusing if those abyssal men in black took umbrage.

The best advice I ever got on the subject was to pick a central Splat to base it all off - preferably one the players are part of - and use the powers of that Splat to describe what the other critters can do. It's the reason Vampire Revised (and Werewolf Revised) featured stats for Werewolves (and Vampires) using Disciplines (and Gifts); to explain how to manage it with a single core Rulebook and limited information on how to contest Arts against Arcanoi, or what-have-you.

That's fine for npcs but when you have a player who probably wants to play an actual mage then you shift him by doing that. I dont get why people just don't say no. I've said no to a player wanting to play a vamp in a mage game because night only shit is crap for the others and they were gonna be upstaged at everything, JUST SAY No you fuckers

And for what reason would a vampire be running around with a bunch of mages?

I wrote a fairly general purpose Mastigos Fate Legacy for the "nameless, faceless protagonist".
Originally designed for cowboy heroes, it works pretty darn well for Men in Black as well.

>And for what reason would a vampire be running around with a bunch of mages?

>Comedic sidekick?

Nameless mages, maybe. The kind without an order to sneer at the strange vampiric condition/powers. And the other way around, too - I can see nameless mages getting 'adopted' into vampire society and werewolf packs. One for comfort, the other for support in the form of a pack of frothing berserkers.

Would Mastigos be the John Wick Path?

>And the other way around, too - I can see nameless mages getting 'adopted' into vampire society and werewolf packs. One for comfort, the other for support in the form of a pack of frothing berserkers.

The Pack had a really good section on crossover between werewolves and mages, and Dave has commented on the pros and cons of their interaction.

Unfortunately we've seen little information or commentary on potential mage / vampire interaction. Crossover, without or without some balancing will still be difficult if for no other reason than mages would chafe at effectively being limited to adventuring during sundown.

I'd say Mastigos, with some crazy powerful skill and martial arts boosting spells.

Possibly with some nice Fate spells to enhance your ludirous pool, for that delicious hint of cheese.

>Just say NO to crossover

DARE to be different, DARE to keep Cainites off True Magick

>I did True Magick once, and now I'm a pack a day crack addict. I inject marijuanas into my eyeballs every day, and sell my ass for liquid cocaine

>Unfortunately we've seen little information or commentary on potential mage / vampire interaction
Silver Ladder has a long-standing policy of their eradication.

Why, because the Embrace steals the potential to Awaken from Sleepers?

Is there anything a mage can't do?

>potential mage / vampire interaction
>Silver Ladder has a long-standing policy of their eradication.

Interesting. Considering there's no upside to vampires for the sleepers under SL guidance and protection, such a position is not very surprising. I imagine that the Free Council would support a similar "no vampires" policy as secret masters that control and literally feed from humanity would definitely be considered to serve the Lie.

Got it in one.

Of course, that's far too resource intensive a move, and it would force them (Vampires) even deeper into Seer pockets than they already are.

So the cleansing is postponed...
Unless a worthless, shrivelled, bloodsucking, corpse with delusions of grandeur needs to get put in it's fucking place.

Ascension is so silly.

Never read it. is the book just called 'the pack'? Got a page reference?

Also there is Rowen from chicago, that Elder who managed to beat three mages to a pulp and get them addicted to her vitae. She basically uses them for magic she can't handle herself, which is lots-of-stuff. One is Taliesin, but I can't remember why. But not much actual information.

Shouldn't they hate werewolves too then, or do they know that werewolves don't turn each other, it can just look that way? And what what the kidnapping true fae making humans into changelings?

An Elder vampire with three mages in her service seems like a big threat that would have to be dealt with.

The Pack is thus far the one supplement for Forsaken.

Here it is:

sendspace.com/file/on0l8a

I also wouldn't use anything from WOD: Chicago as canon. It was a mess when it was released, and never updated at all for CoD 2e games.

>a big threat that would have to be dealt with

Swiftly, conclusively and with extreme prejudice.

Isn't there a legacy that allows a mage to kill without it being an act of hubris?

Mages certainly have a fairly extensive knowledge of how Werewolves function, and really so long as they don't hit their first change? They can still Awaken. Wolf-Blooded can become Mages.

Also without a doubt Thearchs would utterly HATE the Fae for what they do desecrating human souls. But they're practically Gods in their home turf, and that's not just resource intensive, but potentially suicidal.

Any Legacy attainment that kills does so without causing an Act of Hubris.
That's how Legacy Attainments work.

Crossover problems with a vampire are easily solved by giving the vamp a ghoul and having it be a second PC for the daytime game time
Gotta have good and flexible roleplayers though

Guys, I have a problem. A big problem.

I want to GM Beast to see with my own eyes if it's truly that bad, even though I have no serious experience as a GM. I already have a vague idea for the plot in mind. God help me.

What? That's not how it works son.

Can you post your plot idea ?
Genuinely interested in how Beast could be played

"Legacy Wisdom: Using a Legacy Attainment is never considered an Act of Hubris; the mage’s mystic self is completely attuned to their use."

So use your fire control attainment to burn someone alive, and it's not an Act of Hubris. Because you, a Tamer of Fire, have literally carved your soul into the shape of being a motherfucker who get fire to do what he fucking says, and you using that power, carved into your soul.

I don't know, it just might be. Technically, Legacy Attainments aren't even Supernal magic. They're powers the Mage gets from shaping their soul. They don't even cause Paradox, iirc. Wisdom is a measure of how you use magic and why, not just straight up morality.

The use of that power isn't an act of hubris, but you're still taking a life, which is an act of hubris, no matter what
Nice try

>"Legacy Wisdom: Using a Legacy Attainment is never considered an Act of Hubris; the mage’s mystic self is completely attuned to their use."
This quote is on page 198, for people who want to know.

I don't have access to my books, since they're in a box with the rest of the stuff I haven't unpacked yet, so I can't give you the exact details.

Rowen's the local head of the Circle. She's a gangrel elder, a terrifyingly efficient blood mage (to the point where anyone who even teaches her the first thing about the Coils or Theban Sorcery will be dealt with conclusively and spectacularly by the respective covenants) and mostly apolitical. She leaves that to younger members of the covenant. She's also described as being stupidly potent without her magic - to the point where she's one of the few kindred in the city that nobody will fuck with, and anything requiring her attention and the Circle's chief enforcer is probably the Unholy. The mages are supposed to be ones she carefully stalked for years, besting them one at a time.

Wisdom isn't morality. Acts of Hubris aren't just being mean.

The game will be more lighthearted than most. The PCs will be members of a Brood that act as a traveling Circus Of Wonder And Terror. Their leader will be Madame Scorpion, their adoptive mother who runs the Circus and uses her massive Lair as the HQ. Everyone keeps each other Fed and generally sustained by putting on scary shows (after the clients signs the contracts "do not hold the Circus responsible for Integrity loss", of course). The fun part is that this Circus doubles as an expy of the Scooby Doo Gang, with some crime fighting and personal sidequests as a bonus. They'd go around the USA, both causing and solving troubles both mundane and supernatural and building their collective Legend as the Greatest Show Unearthed.

youtube.com/watch?v=oVwqkBG0ulE

The killing is the use of that power.
It's a key, fundamental aspect of that power.
You have ordered flames to consume a living being, and burn him until he is dead.
That is a purpose of fire, and the purpose for which you have commanded it.
That is truly in harmony with your mystic self.

Plus, DaveB has stated that any use of a Legacy Attainment doesn't risk Wisdom loss.
Not just "any use which doesn't involve killing as a direct result of it's application".

That would be like saying an Attainment about draining the life from people until they're dead isn't immune from Wisdom breaks, because you COULD stop before they were dead, and the killing isn't an entirely necessary element of the attainment's function.

Which is entirely retarded.

Let those people who want to play combat Legacies enjoy one of the few benefits Legacy Attainments provide.

>no matter what
Shows how little you know.
You can also dodge the test if the spell that did it is Inured, or you've donned a Guardian Masque that permits murder for the cause.

>Plus, DaveB has stated that any use of a Legacy Attainment doesn't risk Wisdom loss.
Careful, quoting the developer on a game he developed triggers some people.

Developer privilege is so oppressive.

What could concievably drive each splat from a city, but leave the others there and unaffected? The only thing that they'd know is that 'those creepy fucks down the block are gone', and anyone who turns into one leaves or disappears soon after?

Sounds like a good setup with minimal angst and lots of fun too
I'd love to know how it goes if you wanna post how it went once you get around to it
Sadly I can't help much, haven't read Beast in its entirety
What time period are you going to use ? Any dark eras material ?

Exactly, killing with magic accidentally has bee said to be worse than premeditated magic used to kill, the old morality traits are gone and replaced with "HOW CLOSE AM I TO MY Splats theme" fucking phones

If you're assuming crossover and knowledge that the other supernaturals exist, predicate it on the Spirit of the City (that's a common thing) making life miserable for supernatural type in the city. The city just does its best to drive out , and if they won't leave, it uses its resources to kill them. The Spirit has Influence over the entire city, ideally, and influences subtly, with things like rezoning paperwork and all the things that a city can do.

In his case, appear in a single location only.

Boom. Headshot. Didn't see that one coming, did ya? Clash me ousside, how bou dah.

I might do an Actual Play on the OP forums if this gets off the ground.

As for Dark Eras, maybe I'll use something around the 1870-1950s, as that was the heyday of the American Circus. Any Dark Eras for that period?

You can dress it up however you want, but executing someone through your powers, especially for a mage, warrants a degeneration roll in my games, same as a killing blow
Using it in combat, against someone who's a threat, sure, no problem with your wisdom
Frying some poor fuck out of nowhere, regardless of your legacy, is a breaking point, unless you've already done it enough that you don't care anymore (meaning you fucked up your previous degeneration rolls)
Then again, it's up to the GM and a good one would do it like this

There was Dustbowl setting for Promethean, I believe
Either in the first Dark Eras book or in the companion

oh shit buddy, get ready for Revenge Fantasy Where My Friends Have Powers: The Series

>Then again, it's up to the GM and a good one would do it like this
Do it like what? Treat it like a morality system when it isn't?

He's playing Beast, not Vampire.

I'm not triggered, I just think he's a stupid tosser

Maybe he is. But he's not wrong.

>Revenge Fantasy

Not on my watch, they won't.

It's better if they never find out. It's much scarier never knowing. Just have all that splat die mysteriously in simultaneous fires, or all disappear the same day and be replaced in their hidden Havens by a token (playing card, unique coin, unique feather, etc.). Never take it any further than that, and the players will tie themselves in knots for the next fuck knows how many plots expecting to find out more. Plus it adds to the general weirdness levels.

Treat abusive use of magic with effects similar to a killing blow as a breaking point, yes
You could have re-read my post, instead of acting like you don't understand

The user already said he wants to avoid that shit, see

Legacy Attainments aren't magic. They're powers that come from the Mage's soul. They don't cause Paradox and they can't be dispelled with Prime. The book also says using one is NEVER considered an Act of Hubris. Say it with me buddy, NEVER.

Oh, it's Beast?

Apologies, "Revenge Fantasy Where My SUPERFRIENDS Have Powers: The Series"

STARRING!!! That one Demon player!
The two guys who want to play the rarest Vampire bloodline in canon! The girl who wants to play Mage but ends up choosing Promethean because the other dudes make crude comments about unicycle Obrimos!

Because nothing says "plausible character motivation" like a random human-looking guy showing up at the front door of a fucking supernatural conspiracy claiming to know everything and offer +1 to die rolls, amirite?

Magefags are, to a man; paranoid, jumpy and unbelievably violent. Werefags are obsessed with rape. Vampfags are spoiling for a rumble. I personally guarantee you that if a Beast showed up at the doorstep of any one of these threadgoers' characters and claimed to know everything, they'd be lunch... delivered to the door.

Okay, sweetie, whatever you say
One good boy point for you, for being always right
Five more and you will be able to get your tendies

No, he's not wrong about things he's written - I trust he would be the authority on that. But that doesn't mean that his ideas suit the game, or that they help the game achieve it's full potential. Lest we forget the damage wrought in the past by developers like Achilli, Brucatto and whoever was responsible for fucking Gypsies.

Well someone has shitty friends

So it's morally exempt because the soul did it?

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Are you saying it's not ever murder if a person is killed by a spirit or ghost? They don't have bodies.

>I'm not sure I follow your logic
Because the only logic he understands is that of powergaming

Yes. You bastards. You entire sick threadful of bastards. You're the only people I can communicate to from this unguarded cubicle outside the PICU. The staff here are trying to poison me, the whispering is quite clear on that. They think I don't know about the cameras in the food; I know, oh, I know.

Luckily I've hallucinated all of you horrible bastards to talk to, or I'd go completely mad!

Watch your left. The tent has been pitched and the dodo is on the roundabout.
16.400.56.135578.78.0943
See you soon.

Wisdom isn't straight morality. It's how you use your magic, and why. It's not about doing bad things so much as it is being stupid. Hence "Wisdom".

"Wisdom: The quality of a mage’s understanding of how to
minimize the damage his magic causes by exercising restraint and
practicing the Ars Mysteriorum ethically. The moral opposite
of hubris. Also called “Sophia.”"
p.75

"Wisdom is a mage’s ability to judge the value of when, where,
why, and how to use magic. Mages commonly call this virtue
sophia, but Awakened society debates constantly on what constitutes
“right” usage of their magic."
p.86

It's also explicitly stated that Legacy Attainments are never Acts of Hubris. Never. It's not hard to understand. You can play Wisdom as Morality if you want, but it would be a houserule, and not consistent with the themes of the game on a lot of levels. Losing Wisdom because of a Legacy Attainment would also be a houserule, a direct contradiction of what's written.

I think the key word here is "restraint"

Does anyone have the "World of Darkness General" text template handy ?

user said to him, taking a life is an Act of Hubris no matter what. So even if burning up the guy was appropriate and morally just, Act of Hubris, roll for degeneration.

Actually, never mind, I'll do without

...

>The quality of a mage’s understanding of how to
>minimize the damage his magic causes by exercising restraint and
>practicing the Ars Mysteriorum ethically.

>minimize damage
>ethically

Reminder: the topic of discussion is burning a man alive, simply because the Mage can do so.

I like the part that says "the MORAL opposite of hubris", despite you insisting that morality doesn't line up with the themes and it's okay because it's not Hubris with a capital H. You're like a weaponized form of irony.

Impressive reading comprehension. The discussion is killing, period, which user believes is an Act of Hubris, period. This was countered with burning a man alive willy nilly because Legacy Attainments are explicitly never Acts of Hubris. Legacy Attainments aren't even magic, so the "practicing the Ars Mysteriorium ethically" doesn't apply to them. Shooting a Sleeper with a gun would be closer, because Legacy Attainments are explicitly stated to be akin to natural phenomena. I also said that Wisdom isn't STRICTLY morality, and that its focus is more on being wise than being nice. Which is true.

Something something you're a weaponized form of stupid, whatever.

The real issue is whether mages can use a Shielding spell to protect or immunize them from rolling against Wisdom, and if so, what Arcanum would be required.

I'm think "Hubris Shield" would require Prime and/or Death 2.

I started this argument and honestly, drop it
I appreciate your support, but they're too cunty and self-righteous to realize their own shortcomings
We know we're right and we're free to play our games far away from these tards

>I like arson
k