Which primarch is the strongest and why?

Physically strongest, barring biomancy, is Vulkan. He straight up had to hold back when sparring with his brothers because he could physically overpower them so easily.

lol

you'll be shocked when GW reveals that Sanguinius turned in the end, Emperor had to kill him too so that he remained a symbol of hope.

...

Vulkan is by far the strongest. Horus and Sang were said to be the best combatants with Angron being an honorable mention. Then it goes down to the lion and Russ.

Isn't Perturabo, with forgebreaker, like the second strongest Primarch in the tabletop?

Magnus, because while the others are good at beating in faces hand-to-hand he can melt Titans, armies and spaceships. He's exponentially more powerful even without factoring all his psychic utility.

Hand-to-hand combat skills is a poor metric for judging the usefulness of a commander, especially since in every book and story they lead the charge directly into the nastiest stuff the enemy has, at massive risk of being atomised by a Titan laser, beaten to death by hordes of melee troops like Ursarax or Spawn a la Empy and that Ork, nuked and gibbed like Vulkan at the Massacre and maybe even bombarded from orbit. The effect any of the other Primarchs will have on a battle by pure strength is about the same given that it's not like they're much threatened by cutting a swathe through normal soldiers, whereas Magnus or possibly Chaos Horus and Lorgar can change the course of wars with psychic might or Daemons.

I don't even like Primarchs much, I wish they'd stop rendering everyone else irrelevant and idiotic as a form of plot armour, but Magnus is so hilariously OP it's not even a contest.

>gets back eternally broken by Russ

Which primarch is the mentally strongest ?

To be fair, that was after he turned off the planet's defences, didn't fight for the vast majority of the invasion, held back his men from early response and then fought Russ in the presence of a bunch of Sisters of Silence. Even then he managed to do some pretty serious damage to Leman, and could hav ripped up the attacking fleet prett well before they even landed. Russ is good for duelling people, butchering and yelling, and that's about it. Magnus could have powered the bloody Astronomican, thus making him exponen more useful than some beatstick who doesn't take orders or listen to advisors, lets grudges interfere with sworn duty and would probably be killed the first time some enemy gets smart and greets his attacking first wave with nuclear weapons or worse.

Based on the 30k released stats so far, Russ. It's not even a question. He even takes own Horus. Maybe 40k Girlyman could stand up better, but I doubt it's enough.

Magnus could have killed Magnus if he wasnt fighting the wolf king while helping his legion and being bitten by the Russ wolves

>Horus with Chaos bullshittery
Nope. As of Russ' current statline and special rules and gear, he takes Horus in 7 rounds.

>Magnus could have killed Magnus
I think you made a mistake there friend.

"You strive for victory. That is obvious. What may be less obvious is the nature of victory. There are circumstances in which you can destroy the enemy utterly, without loss to your own forces, and yet the victory may be his. In all situations, you must first decide on the nature of victory, and then take steps to secure it. Avoid the instinct of fight first and think later." (Meditations, Book VI)

Sauce:
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Leman_Russ_(Primarch)

So, who's just a beatstick?

No,Magnus was beating Russ ass with spells,and then the wolves attacked the crimson king,distracting him and giving a chance for the furry to attack Magnus

Sanguinius. Easy.

As a child on Baal he killed giant rad-scorpions and SHATTERED boulders with his bare hands.
(2nd ed Angels of Death Codex)

As an adult, he solo'd an Eldar TITAN and ripped its head off.
(Horus Heresy, Book 6?)

In his final days he picked up a fuck huge Bloodthirster (Kha'banda) and broke its back over his knee ala Bane.
(Horus Heresy, multiple sources)

You misunderstand. Both Magnus and Russ have official stats. Going by the rules of the game it's possible for Magnus to beat him, it's just statistically unlikely.

Let's hope his 30K stats reflect that.

I dont fucking care about the rules and invented stats,we are talking about a real fight,and in that real fight Magnus would have won in a 1vs1 against Russ

And yet, he didn't. Some "master sorcerer" he was, got ganked by house pets.

Roboute, Sanguinius, Ferrus ?

That is not a fucking 1vs1.Space wolves always act like that,without honour,they just want to kill the enemy,EVEN WHEN THAT ENEMY WAS A FUCKING LOYAL THAT NOTICED THE EMPEROR ABOUT THE HORUS HERESY FUCK OFF FURRY LOVER

You're missing the point. The fight was never 1v1, it was open battle, and Magnus was so dumb he forgot that. Yup, super threatening that one.

By mentally strongest you mean most stoic or calm then probably If by sheer knowledge then probably Magnus, Lorgar, Perturabo and maybe Guilliman.

...

No,he was not dumb.His legion was small in numbers,and if he didnt help them the space furries would have beaten them.He was helping his sons while fighting his brother who was trying to kill him by order of Horus.

And primarchs(most of leaders too) usually want a 1vs1,telling their marines to let the enemy primarch come to him(for example Fulgrim vs Ferrus)

>Emperor-created superbeings in a tabletop fantasy game.
>In a real fight.
I think you should reexamine what you said.

When I say real fight I mean the fucking lore,with their personalities,personal weapons,terrain,armours.Not just some fucking numbers,fights are not maths(maybe for perturabo)

Everyone always forgets that Magnus was holding off the entire Space Wolves army, which included Sister of Silence at the same time as duelling with Russ. He was also powering up the spell to retreat from Prospero with his remaining legion.
They had to write in these Mcguffins because they wanted a Primarch duel for the book but psykers if written as powerful as they are would rofl-stomp anyone.

As for this thread Sanguinius is the only answer unless you count warp-bullshit Horus. Him holding the eternity gate is proof of this and noone else has an achievement that comes close to it.

An none of that ha anything to do witht h fact he made a retarded mistake, and wouldn't take Russ one on one anyway. This fluff is based on a game with rules. And those rules say Russ beats every Primarch easily.

Magnus D's Russ off the table easily. Going by your argument Magnus is by far the most powerful Primarch.

Seriously Magnus's 30k rules are bullshit.

Except if anything, the fact that his sons NEEDED his help shows that Russ & Co were more effective as a collective force. Plus, the fact that Russ was smart enough to bring backup shows he prepared for fighting his brother's psychic bullshit. I know it would have been much more convenient if he had been a good sport and let Magnus kill him with spess magic, but here's the truth - outside of sports, there's no such thing as a fair fight.

When it came down to Fulgrim vs Ferrus, no marine wanted to get involved between a titanic duel and your talking about a legion that would get a boner fighting a primarch and another legion that was running on 200%MAD HATRED at the time

Honestly, aside from the Chaos bullshittery, out of the loyalists the strongest is either Guilliman the Lion. Why? THEY ARE STILL FUCKING LIVING. And no, I don't count the "lawst in spess" ones. These two still live, both after shit that should have killed them. So, by default, they are the most powerful.

In the Chaos arena, honestly, Angron. Why? Because FUCKMAGIK collars of Khorne, and the simplest of facts: Khorne doesn't care whence the blood flows, only that it does. He powers up old Angy with Special K's power.

Lorgar is a bitch who gets turned out like a cheap trick by all 5 Chaos gods.

Mortarion is too far up Papa Nurgle's bilious ass.

Magnus is a fancypants knowitall who is being systematically lied to and destroyed by Tzeentch while being buffed by Tzeentch while being shown the way but forced to get lost..... just as planned...

Horus is fucking DEAD Jim.

Fulgrim is stuck as a painting. Enjoy it, Mr. Grey. Moron.

Konrad is dead. Or hiding in some Vietcong shithole waiting for Martin Sheen.

Perturabo is more easily manipulated than lead in a skillet.

Alpharius Omegon... ugh. Twincest at its worst. They're too busy trying to fuck/unfuck the Imperium.

Angy is the only one with anger so pure, so refined, that he can really kick ass. He has no worries, no plans, just a solid command: Spill blood. Take skulls. In the end, it's not the weapon that has the most toys and accessories on it that kills you. It's the simple knife that gets past your armor, the AK round that whacks you, the grenade that gets dropped. All the magicalfuckery in the 'verse can't stop pure anger. None of the spells, demands, subservience, death, or plague can stop him.

Emm no,the guys who invent the rules are not the same as the guys who write the books.Also as I said,a lot of things affect the primarchs,like how much time he fought,his animus at that time,if he is wearing other weapon(for example,fulgrim wore a hammer and ferrus a sword during their fight)

>Russ & Co were more effective as a collective force.
God I hate SW-fags. If anything Prospero showed that Russ need Valdor and the sister to even compete with a legion without their Primarch and no defenses.
Magnus literally gave Russ all the winning cards and they still fucked it up forever one.

Like I said, there's a chance Magnus could win. But the odds are not in his favor.

>Russ & Co were more effective as a collective force
I totally agree

>Russ was smart enough to bring backup shows he prepared for fighting his brother's psychic bullshit
So smart that he was being used as a puppet by the arch-traitor ahahaha go back to your cave in fenris furry fag

Fulgrim told his marines to gtfo and let ferrus fight him,and the duel between magnus and the furry king was pretty much titanic

Russ has never been confirmed alive or dead.

And the rules are the primary canon, because the rules came first. It's not complicated.

Yes they are. Dramatically.
Go to the HHG if it isnt dead again and ask who is more OP. It'll be Magnus everytime. Any spell converted to D strength? Nova D? Invisibility so that Russ can never even hit Magnus? Not even close mate.

>5 Chaos gods
lol faggot gtfo Malal doesn't exist

Leman Russ would have been STUPID not to bring anti-psyker measures against the Thousand Sons. If you knew your enemy was going to make use of massed aircraft, wouldn't you invest in a little AA? If you knew your enemy was going to make use of massed armor, wouldn't you bring some solid AT? If you knew your enemy was going to shoot you with MIND-BULLETS, wouldn't you bring something that stops said mind-bullets? Once again - I know salty TS fans wish Russ had played nice and not been mean to the poor psykers, but the point of a battle is to WIN.

Did Russ have ANY reason to doubt Horus, the Emperor's FAVORITE SON when he said the plan had changed? Look, I'm not going to dispute that he should have asked Empy for confirmation. Honestly, I don't mind admitting he made a good old-fashioned mistake. Still, him believing Horus makes sense.

Ok nice rant but what is your point? What does that have to do with my post?

>because the rules came first
Emm no,the hh heresy books came first,and then they created the 30k minis and rules because hh series got a lot of attention

Another time with the fucking rules.Yeah probably Sanguinius(when we get his mini) could have beaten easily Horus in the rules too,right?But read again my reply,we are talking about who wins in a fight(forget the tabletop seriously),and it would have been magnus if russ had some decency

>hey leman,do you see magnus right there?kill him,yes its an order from me,the warmaster,no matter what that guy in the throne said,no matter if he is your brother,no matter if they fought for the imperium during 2 centuries,just follow my orders because i am the new em...i mean the new warmaster

Russ never killed a primarch.

Thats the biggest fucking plot hole now. Valdor gets back to Terra before the Istvaan Massacre so we have Magnus giving the Emperor his warning. Russ being sent to fetch him, getting Horus's orders and following them instead. Then news of this getting back to Terra and the Emps still doesnt do anything about Horus and just lets him amass power for another year or so.
Genius move Emps.

Here is what it has to do with your post:

>Russ need Valdor and the sister to even compete with a legion without their Primarch and no defenses

I spelled out the purpose of the sisters to show this was an irrelevant point. To put it more concisely (since apparently anything over two lines is a rant), Russ using the sisters to eliminate his enemy's strength makes him a BETTER COMMANDER.

Which primarch is the best cook?

Not denying that Russ let his dislike of Magnus get in the way of his better judgment. He really, really should have asked Emps before Hiroshimizing Prospero.

>Russ uses tools others gave him
Wow what an amazing commander.
I just don't see how this supports your opinion that because the TSon got set up to be blind sided that this magically makes the Wolves a more cohesive force? You claim they needed Magnus yet when the Wolves need something it tactics? K.

Except the Wolves aren't rendered useless by a single unit. Magnus let his legion be overly dependent upon Psykers, which utterly fucked them over when Russ brought blanks.

>TSon got set up to be blind sided that this magically makes the Wolves a more cohesive force?

First of all, setting your enemy up to be blind-sided is the single smartest way to fight a battle. If you can kill THEIR dudes without losing YOUR dudes, you done good dude. Second of all, that's not what I said. I said that Russ using his enemy's CRIPPLING WEAKNESS against them means he's an intelligent commander.

Can't take orders, aimed at the emperor's loyal lapdog, coming from a Magnus fanboy? The primarch who ruined everything cause he couldn't fucking follow orders? Is this even real life?

Not him, and he'll respond similarly.

But Magnus blinded his own legion for weeks leading up to Russ invading. Russ didn't do shit to surprise the Tsons with his invasion. Magnus fucked everything up for Prospero in that regard

Kek. Russ didn't blind side anyone. Magnus did. Go read the fluff mate it's not even hard to find.

>Except the Wolves aren't rendered useless by a single unit. Magnus let his legion be overly dependent upon Psykers, which utterly fucked them over when Russ brought blanks.
Except they weren't useless. they we're still astartes and dough well without their powers.

Have you read ATS or inferno? I'm guessing not as you seem to have no idea how Prospero went down otherwise you'd know Magnus blindsided his legion not Russ.

So like I said Russ used the tools given to him so best commander ever. But if the tSons do it it's over reliance and it's bad. K.

Yes, good commanders make use of all the tools at their disposal. Also, are you fucking high? In what universe does a good commander only use only tools of his own creation? Is Hannibal shit cause he didn't invent cavalry? Should a good commander not let his troops have guns unless he hand crafted them himself? Should our generals go out and recruit their own men rather than assuming command of units assigned to them by the army? Tell me, just how does your twisted little brain think war works?

Tell me just how does your twisted little brain think that was my argument?

Yes I know it,it was a satire to make it funny and ridiculous,and you have to use your brain to take the objective information,its called reading comprehension

>Except they weren't useless. they we're still astartes and dough well without their powers.

Except the SW were astartes doing what they did best, as opposed to the TS being astartes deprived of their specialty. That doesn't put them on anything close to an equal level.

>So like I said Russ used the tools given to him so best commander ever.

Russ wasn't the best commander ever. Good enough to beat the Sons, apparently.

>But if the tSons do it it's over reliance and it's bad.

So, clarify this for me. Are you implying that Russ was overly reliant upon something? If so, then what exactly was that?

It's strongly implied that Russ killed at least one of the missing primarchs. In Vengeful Spirit Malcador talks about how Russ' blade falls a little too readily and Emps flat out tells Malcador that he trusts Leman to decide who is loyal or not, and to kill those found lacking.

Who cares if Vulkan dies. If he comes back, his deaths are irrelevant.

Horus' evaluation of who was the best martial combatant put him, Sanguinius, and Angron as a tier above all the other primarchs (a tier that was, incidentally, defined by "who can take Angron in a fight")

So here are some rough rankings:

Angron Tier:
Horus
Sanguinius
Angron

High Tier:
Lion
Russ
Curze
Corax

Mid Tier:
Dorn
Fulgrim
Jaghatai
Vulkan

Low Tier:
Guilliman
Peturabo
Mortarion
Ferrus
Alpharius
Magnus

Lorgar Tier:
Lorgar

I think Warhammer is a pretty cool primarch. Eh kills aliens and doesn't afraid of anything.

Wolf King directly has Russ stating that he didn't think a Primarchs could die until he killed Magnus. Now he was wrong about killing Magnus but it's clear that he hadn't executed any of the others.

> Mortarion is low tier
In retrospect it's kind of hilarious that he was arrogant enough to think that he could take Horus in a fight.

This is why having a bunch of different writers do novels with the same characters in them is a bad idea. Contradictory shit like this happens.

Why'd the Emperor cry when he was seven? What happened?

> Why'd the Emperor cry when he was seven? What happened?

Don't listen to him, the Emperor cries all the time.

Like that one time when a tech priest knee-capped him with a pipe.

No the problem is that people took an implication and ran with it. Guilliman says to Lorgar that he 'should be fed to the wolves' and people took to mean something more because hey didn't realise this was after Prospero.

>he was arrogant enough to think that he could take Horus in a fight
When was that?
Those two were pretty good buddies - obviously Horus was friends with a lot of the primarchs, but their bro-ship was a huge factor in Mort turning traitor

In terms of sheer strength, Vulkan was probably among the strongest, with Russ and Ferrus making strong contenders.

In terms of power level, I'd say Sanguinius and Magnus (Daemon Prince), though apparently the true prize would absolutely belong to Lorgar (Daemon Prince) because, while canonically the weakest Primarch and also the shittiest, worst one, he's apparently turned into the most powerful Traitor Primarch turned Daemon Prince. His stats in 30k represent as much, with Daemon Lorgar able to cream basically all his brothers in solo combat.

Wtf is with this numbering.

This thread went off the rails thanks to yiffposting. It's supposed to be about who is the strongest, not who is the best commander. 1v1, locked in an arena, no vehicles, no pets, no allies.

Heresy Horus is the strongest.

Magnus comes in second only because horus would be protected by the gods from his magic. He vaporizes everyone else.

Sanguinus third since we already know Horus killed him in battle. (And was still in good enough shape to throw down with emps)

Angron because fucking angron.

I don't know where russ ranks, but it's not above these four.

Typical that we endlessly descend into space wofl vs thousand sons dick measuring

If I could delete ANYTHING from the game, it would be those

You guys are the fucking worst, we can't have anything nice ever because of you

When Mortarion was trying to convince Jaghatai Khan to join him in the Heresy. Jaghatai laughs at how Mortarion was always the one who hated psykers, yet now his side is the one with all the witches, sorcerers, and daemons. Mortarion says that might be true right now, but he thinks he can beat Horus and rule once the Emperor is out of the way. Jaghatai just laughs even harder and proceeds to kick Mortarion's ass.

...

Seems a bit contrary to what we've seen of the Mort-Horus relationship, but he does REALLY hate psykers and being lorded over by psykers

Or he might just have been trying to convince the Khan, who knows

I largely agree with this post.

>Lion and Guilliman have tactics and a moderated strengh,but they dont have fast speed and the fury to make the enemy poo in their pants
Lion has perhaps the most definable physical abilities of all the primarchs and they are this: he's so fucking fast Roboute can't see him move let alone react in time.

Wasn't Sanguinius prone to berserking?

Fulgrim or Vulkan

Vulkan always overcooks everything. Fulgrim is way better.

It basically came down to a contest between his friendship with Horus and his hatred of sorcery. His hatred of sorcery was stronger, but by the time he realized Horus' side was the sorcery side, he was already up to his neck in treason with no way of turning back. So he went on fighting for Horus, but was ultimately planning to betray him because all sorcerers must die, and no matter how much he liked Horus, Horus was working with sorcerers and so he had to go.

Ranked by power in FLUFF, at the start of the heresy

wrong pic

here's what I meant

It's a parks and rec reference. From Ron Swanson.

Move Magnus down and remove God tier.
Move Angron up.
Move Kurze down.
Move Vulkan down.
Move Ferrus up.

This is your brain on dick

Thinking you can win a war against someone isn't the same thing as thinking you can go against them mano-e-mano.

I mean, Mortarion would be wrong about both of those things, but it's not the same thing.

Sang, no doubt.

Bitch. He rekt Magnus so hard it took a god to save him and even then he was shattered and broken into dozens of fragments. Also if you havent been paying attention it is pretty much spelled out Russ offed at the very least one of the missing primarchs