Which class has the best flavor?

The Binder IMHO is the best caster class in D&D 3.5 in terms of both their abilities, lore and powers.

They have the appeal of Warlocks but a greater degree of versatility and cool things they can summon to literally posess them.

Eh, Paladins suffer the same issue as Clerics in that the amount of concepts they can technically encompass is really, really broad. I think more clearly defining the different niches of the divine classes actually helped establish their identity more strongly, defining what made them different as well as opening room for classes like Warlord to occupy their own design space.

A friend of mine always loved using an old Arthurian example. Lancelot was a Fighter, Galahad was a Paladin... But Arthur would be a Warlord.

I think the ambiguity opens up a lot of room for creativity. It's less cut and dry than a firebolt. Just make it your own in a way that thematically jives with your patron.

I'm a big fan of the Wild Magic Sorcerer. While it can be problematic, I find that giving my DM sway over the magic surges helps us both and always keeps us on our toes because a lot of unexpected things can happen. - Blunders are often hilarious and make for good stories.

It's different by warlock and each type of warlock too. In my head; Fey maybe some pixie dust type bolt or maybe vines spring the earth to lash foes. Infernal FIRE and brimstone. Shadow obvious. Old Ones gooey tendrils and glow or tentacles

Honestly flat footed/sneak attacking is so poorly extrapolated on in 3.5 it's astounding.

Like it's suppose to mean "you've caught this enemy unaware and as such can strike his vital spots" which okay fair enough except there's so many things which apparently don't have vitals even though they totally could?

Like sure I don't expect a gelatinous cube to have vital areas but all undead? Even vampires? The guys who're established to be extra vulnerable in their heart? Or zombies who're routinely described as dying when you hit their head? Or constructs who could totally have an exposed joint or weaker part of them?

It's like they assumed "vulnerability" referred exclusively to human anatomy and not things that actually have parts that'd just be weaker than others. Like rogues are only specialized in wuxia style acupuncture or something.

Don't forget how your bloodline powers are worse than wizard schools, you don't have to assign spells but know less spells TOTAL than a wizard can assign anyway, and every time WoTC has given you archetypes that learn cool thematic spells as they level up, they're retconned it and taken the spells away. Also your spell list is almost an exact carbon-copy of the Wizard's, but with rituals and all the really high-end stuff torn out, because you have metamagic (of which only 3 options are really useful anyway, and those are all super situational and burn a resource).

Sorcerer's literally exist as cucks who's main purpose just to make Wizards look cooler.
At least they're not as bad as warlocks, which are just pic-related for Eldritch Blast

I just started a nigh-fanatic cleric on e5 and I love it. I go DEUS VULT INFIDEL at NPCs and abuse my positionas much as possible.
Glory to Pelor.

Just curious which three metamagics are you talking about?

The Bourgeoisie

I've been enjoying cleric's flavor a la Claude Frollo / holy inquisition. Everyone is a sinner and it's my responsibility to rid the world of their filth.

"In the name of his Holy Word, the Church has branded this place as a gathering of criminals and heretics, and condemned all to Death."

It's a kamehameha

>Subtle Magic: Not because it allows you to cast when disarmed (as many of spells still require components or a focus), but because rules lawyering means opponents can't counter-spell your spells (as they need to see you in the process of casting a spell). Also of note, Subtle Magic allows you to cast Enchanting spells on targets without any bystanders seeing that you did it (although the target is still aware if they make their save).

>Quickened Spell: Frees up your main action for things like dodge, disengage, using an item, or even just using a cantrip for extra damage.

>Twinned Spell: Cheap way to double the damage of cantrips and overall damage output, especially if quickened spell was used to cast a regular spell that same turn. Also allows the doubling of certain single-target buffs like Haste.

Most other metamagic isn't really worth the resource cost and is so niche and situation it's a waste of your levelling resources unless you know the campaign is gonna be about a very specific thing.

Personally I really like the fluff behind monks, even though at almost any level you're significantly better off with a fighter wearing boots speed.

You forgot empowered spell one of the cheapest and one of the few that can actually be used with other metamagics

You forgot empowered spell ,one of the cheapest and one of the few that can actually be used with other metamagics

Statistically it's only a very small damage increase most of the time, and a worse use of sorcery points than something like Twin or Quicken. It's alright if you know you're gonna get alot of long rests and have resources to spare, otherwise it's a waste.

It gets a lot better when you get to high level. When it allows you to prevent your nuke spells from fizzling out. It's also pretty much mandatory if you want better dpr than evocation.

Two times. They were in 3e and 4e.

Pathfinder APG summoner.

It's the monster master I always wanted.

Its too good, because it's two full characters, but the eidolon is the best flavor.

If only it had the option to pick other creatures types, and to have it around all the time now like the 5e revised ranger.

Eidolon for martials would be amazing too.

I enjoy clerics as a guilty pleasure. Sometimes I just wana play a healslut character who's allowed to be more about healing and helping people than killing everything.

If I'm going full DEUS VULT I'll usually just play a Paladin instead.

There was a class called marshal and white raven stuff, but not explicit warlord in 3e.

Though, that's still better than anything else we got out of WotC.

Warlock is closer to 5e Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster than it is to Wizard. People really need to stop getting that mixed up. It's not to be a primary caster.
It's meant to be a ranged martial that attacks with cantrips, and has utility spells.

I've always liked the idea of Sorcerers, i.e. magic literally in their blood, who can work great magic by their own will and force of self rather than needing to spend all their time buried in books and fixing spells in their mind.

Unfortunately, the obsession with dragons and the general way that D&D (and PF) does them, including vancian spell levels, means that I often have to sigh and pass.

I like the way that WHFRP ran with it, or the Dresden Files game my group played once.

>Not tabletop
Dragoons. It's one of the coolest and most iconic designs among things that didn't originate in classic fantasy.

>Tabletop
Warlords. The idea of fighter as a strategist/tactician making his allies more effective not because of magic, but because of his tactical genius didn't originate in 4e, but it was put into numbers there. Some may say that overreliance on numbers and mechanics is a failure of 4e, but i like that it actually quantified what you et for shouting really loud at your allies, instead of playing "please give me bonus" with the GM.

splitting the party to scout is fine.

Its very temporary and the consequences effect the entire party.. Rogues can definitely sneak on their own. Heck, I've sneak attack one-shot guards I knew the party couldn't successfully sneak past while on recon. Doesn't matter if the paladin is a 300lb steel wind chime if the guard to hear him coming is bleeding in a broomcloset.

part of why pathfinder removed them on nearly everything but slimes and swarms. Constructs and undead are now crit-able.

Honestly, i found it much better and more hassle-free to let party rogue sneak TOGETHER with party. In this case, their "stealth" skill extends to leading others from one safe spot to another, distracting the guards to let less mobile party members pass and authority to get lolrandumb CN sorcerer stop setting on fire everything within his reach.

>But user, how can you cover the presence of loudly clanking paladin in full plate?
They're just -that- good.

In both cases it's STILL usually easier to have the wizard just turn everyone invisible, silent, or just teleport them and avoid sneaking all-together.

But magic shitting all over any non-combat challenge in DnD is nothing new, it was designed to be a dungeon-crawler after all, and roleplaying just gets in the way of that.

What's really amusing is how most people never realize that teleportation doesn't necessarily work in areas with lots of magical interference, that the whole turning everyone invisible and silent means you can't see or hear your allies (which really sucks if one of them falls into a trap of some sort - and we're not talking some quantum GM made up trap but a simple pit trap) or how the spell is wasted when they attack and then everyone has to attack, then they wait 8 hours for the wizard to cast it again because he spent all his wealth on metamagic rods and scrolls of knock.

>In both cases it's STILL usually easier to have the wizard just turn everyone invisible, silent, or just teleport them and avoid sneaking all-together.

In D&D, maybe. If i was playing it, though, i'd just made it a bonus to the sneaking roll.

And the utility of invisibility spells wanes greatly when there are things like closed guarded doors and magical detection (or plain old hounds sensing PC's scent).

But i come from Shadowrun background, so i'm used to every plan having at least five levels of contingency.

>What does an eldritch blast look like? Sound like? What dose it do when it hits someone?

A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage.

>Sound?
Crackling
>Sight?
Beam
>What does it do
Smacks them with force

Basically this guy has it, but closer to "Continuous Energy Bullet" because they're smaller (only hit as strong as a longsword) and at higher levels you shoot multiple one after the other.

You want pokemon.

Invisibility IS a bonus to sneak rolls. +40 if memory serves. If they pass it, they still see you.

>+40
>For no investment in the skill at all
>Meanwhile the level 10 Rogue has MAYBE a +30 if he hyper-specialized and made good build choices.

I sure do love when anyone with a level 3 spell slot can completely invalidate multiple skills I built my entire character around.

Wait till someone tells you how the Fly spell completely invalidates Climb, Acrobatics, Swim Speed, and even base walking/running speed. Oh, and you can also stay 10 feet in the air to be out of reach of all melee fighters but still not suffer catastrophic fall damage if you get hit somehow.

Skills are notoriously terrible in 3.x.

Can't let muggles take away casters' thunder, after all.

Paladins especially more the LN or LE route. This gritty individual doing what is needed even if it isn't what he agrees with. Going the distance that is needed even if going a bit bent in his actions to deal with a situation. Be stern and try to be fair and if can't be fair, be harsh.

You have daddy issues.

>Implying skills are any better in 5e
>Implying the wizard can't just solve any skill-related problem with a single Level 3 or below spell and do it better than the skilled character
>Implying that a +6 proficiency bonus at LEVEL F*CKING 20 even makes it worth it to be proficient in skills at all now.

There is a why Wizards are GODS after certain levels.

You mean level 5? When they get level 3 spells?
Or level 3 when they can just replace 80% of the skills in the game instead of 110% of them?

Nah, just got sent to the military at a young age and forced with an odd mentality.

Basically a cop I guess.

any facts for those memes?

I took liberties when I played a Warlock in 5e, and fluffed my eldritch blasts as bolts of the white noise you see on a CRT.

good fluff for Ghost in the Machine parton.

>1d10 force damage.
sounds useless

Depends on the Warlock. I was DMing for a Great Old One Warlock, and she fluffed it as a tear in space that dealt damage through explosive decompression. Meanwhile, in my current campaign my Fiend-Pact Bladelock flings Cenobite-style hooked chains, since I mainly use them with Grasp of Hadae to get enemies onto stabbing range.

I love fighters and paladins the most simply because I've never not had fun with a knight character. Riding into town on a big horse with a sword and shield waving to all the people is great fun, and paladins are basically knights+cleric though fighters work better for low fantasy or grittier games.

Absolutely agree, love the idea of strength through demonic pacts.

1d1 force damage, but it gets extra attacks as fast as the fighter, and with one invokation you add your charisma modifier instead of strength

at +5 it's 11.5 damage per hit, 14.5 with a +3 rod/wand. total of 72.5 a turn.

Now throw on Hex for 1d6 necrotic on each of those attacks, for a total of 90 damage a turn, casting a cantrip and a bonus action 1st level spell that lasts for up to 24 hours and jumps to your next target as soon as the first one dies.

It's great.

>projecting

you dont get bonus damage from rod of the pact keeper.

I've always loved Sorcerers over any other caster, even though I love the mechanical crunch of minmaxxing my spells as a Wizard. Something about the flexibility of being able to cast what you know on the fly without worrying about preparing things, paired with the freedom of knowing you aren't tied down to a spellbook makes me feel ready for adventure. Mix that in with the high Charisma that the class usually demands and you have the basis for a fun character every time.

I was thinking marshal.

Yes, but in d&d. What of it?

Skills are shit in 5e.

You'd need higher bonuses and a supernatural skill stunt subsystem in order for it to be competitive.

Ah, you're right. It's attack rolls and saves isn't it. That and one extra spell a day.

What do you think of 5e wizard then?

Exalted?

Yes. In order for skills to be a viable alternative to magic they would need to be like the skills in exalted.

Currently they're even worse than in a. 5, because of how irrelevant proficiency is until like level 13ish.

Otherwise, skills remain what they are now:

The shitty backup plan for when nobody has the relevant spell or the problem isn't worth wasting a spell slot on.

Which, really, I'm fine with. But if that's how we're gonna run skills, then every class needs spells as their main utility mechanic.

Whatever wizard class lets me swing a sword. Or whatever warrior class lets me kill people with magic/a thought.

>In those days no other Men had settled dwellings so far west, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire. But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them.

In the Digimon pen and paper if you out enough DP into the Hide In Plain Sight trait you can have your check affect the whole party. The game's pretty niche but its good at keeping stealth characters relevant event when the party starts hitting the "Shoot Nuke Twice a Turn" level. Sneak Attack's a trap option though...

Warlock. Having a master intently gives a character a connection with the world, a set of possible goals and a reason not to go full murderhobo. Unfortunately all that stuff can be a bit single-player-RPG if the rest of the party isn't in your whacky cult, so Cleric provides a similar but less antisocial alternative

>BOUNDED ACCURACY

What of it?

Yes, it helps reign in some unreasonably scaling combat modifiers.

In the case of skills, it means skills are shit until endgame, and exacerbates the divide between skills and magic.

Bounded accuracy applied to skills the way it was, was a mistake. Fortunately it's fairly easy to houserule to not be so shit.

Horizon walker
The idea of an explorer with insatiable curiosity and a nomadic spirit. Then he learns to travel through planes.

if a +3 weapon is super powerful why is +3 to a skill not the same when both are being compared to the same range of difficulty check?

20 AC, 20 DC, same range. Trying to use a skill you're not proficient in is as effective as using a weapon you're not proficient in, and nobody ever does that for obvious reasons, no matter how much better damage or effect it is.

Combat should always be a difficult struggle with a lot of luck involved. The low numbers scaling give you artificially condensed danger levels of foes, making enough peasants with pitchforks be a threat to superman.

Doing the same thing with skills gives you amateur chumps who can't even keep up with pro athletes where skills are concerned, while the other half of the party can surpass the x-men with magic and class features.

Combat still scales with damage, hp, and spell effects.

Skills scale with what dcs you can beat, and that's it.

Applying Bounded accuracy to skills was a mistake. The bonus should start much higher for proficient skills, and should scale up to be competitive with magic utility effects if we're going to have classes without magic.

They're stunlock champions in 5e.

At the risk of being called a weeb, I've always dug classes that enhance martial skill (usually swordsmanship) with magic of some kind. I also unironically prefer if it includes teleporting.

>heh... nothing personnel, kid