Would Angron have stayed loyal if the Emperor had saved his gladiator crew?

I'm willing to believe it. Daddy E can't outright ignore the laws of the universe. Bend them near to breaking, sidestep some completely but he cannot simply act with abject impunity. Plus the nails are archeotech. angron is a primarch and the goal is removal without destroying him- it's in the realm of possibility that he honestly could not work it out.

How complex is a primarch brain? How utterly unique and never intended to be fucked with is it? His regenerative ability is offsetting some of the damage but that in no way means its safe to poke around. Also the question arises. If the emperor was able to undo the nails then why didn't the crusade rapidly step up to dark age levels?

The information could simply be outside what he knows or can intuit

>if a random guy on the internet can't do it, then neither can the Emperor of Mankind

Doctors perform brain surgery all the time, and neural plasticity means the brain can regain a lot of functionality with a great deal of its mass removed.

An ordinary human managed to live for years, hold and ordinary job and raise 2 kids with 10% of his brain remaining.

The Nails staying in Angron was either deliberate, or just hand-waved for plot

Yeah and 10% brain mass survival gets into news and internet articles because it's rare and by normal convention, considered a miracle.

Emperor has many faults, but inability to perform complex neurosurgery is not one of them

If I remember correctly it was not that the nails being physically removed causing death, it was that the nails rewired the brain to rely on them and stopped functioning correctly.

Big 'E' is not some jobber techpriest, he invented some archeotech himself. Not to mention being the greatest bio-chemist of all time (he created space marines ffs). The idea that he could not figure out a way to replace or alter the effects of the nails is hilarious.

I agree with the idea that angron never wanted the nails removed.

was that the official reason?

This nigger should have been fed to Russ for the start

As far Master of Mankind is concerned, yes.

Yes. The Nails weren't just a Spike driven into his head. The literally snaked their way into his brain, rewiring it to rely on it to function. Less like a implanted chip, more like an extended biological tumor that actively fucks with surrounding stuff.

Of the many faults of the Horus Heresy, this is not one of them.

Because it's not like brain tumors have ever been removed from human brains using modern science after all...

Face it, it was plotted in to force Angron to be dumb, or Big E left them in on purpose

But why did Angron insist that his legion get the nails? Seriously retarded.

He would have fucked it up sooner or later. There's a reason he became a slave when all his brothers became kings.

Because he was mad.

was it not the legion that insisted on getting the Nails because Angron killed everyone of them that tried to reason with him?

No Brain Tumor that was designed to actively be unremovable has been removed from a transhuman super-rain, no. Just read the fucking book, you idiot.

E Money sought outside help and even Arkan Land said it was impossible to remove them you dumb fucking mollusk

Do Terminator Shoulder pads fit on Aggressors?

Either the Emperor is a stone cold son of a bitch, the reason why most Primarchs developed their daddy issues. In this case, he should have just up and killed Angron when he saw that he was lost.
Or he is a benevolent father, in which case he saves him and there's no reason for most of the Primarchs to throw their bitchfit.
Either way, the Horus Heresy novels prove to be retarded bullshit that should be ignored once again.

No.

He has literal rage machines wired into his brain. He would've snapped sooner or later regardless of what excuse he was given.

The Legion wanted Nails to be closer to daddy so he might accept them.
Didn't work lol

Are there any good pre heresy WE novels besides betrayer?

>betrayer
>good

To be fair, this is actually a case of the writers thinking that they're writing the Emperor to be clever.
There's some chestnut about how 'a broken sword can still cut'. Ie, the Emperor thinks that, just because he's damaged, doesn't mean he can't still be useful. (It's stupid and doesn't actually make sense - yeah, maybe a broken sword is still sharp, but a jammed gun might take some fingers off - but the writers don't see it that way.)
So basically, because the writers are dumb, they're incapable of writing somebody to be smart, but this is supposed to be the Emperor being callous-but-competent.

>emperor
>seeking help
Its old shoddy lore and lets leave it at that.

this pic trigger my austim, so I will ask:
did Robot Gullymad stand a single chance in a one on one fight against possiby the most gruesome, gifted and vicious brawler of the galaxy?

Its like 3 month old lore you brainlet

Fabius removed the nails from a World Eater Apothecary. The World Eater became Fabius's right hand ever since.

Are you saying Fabius knows better than the Empeor?

He held himself pretty well considering Angron already had the favor of Khorne, Guilliman had been blown up, spaced, psychically blown up and dueled Lorgar Ascendant before. It's no coincidence that Guilli's rules are among the strongest.

Has the Emperor ever taken out three Titans by himself?

>cheap knock-off version nails in an assembly line marine
vs
>actual archeo-tech in a primarch brain

I probably think so, considering it was the fact that the Big E left the gladiators behind was what created Angron's resentment of him.

Dornian Heresy (a fan thing I know) seemed to be of the opinion that when the Big E rescued them all, the overall hostility that the WE held for the Emperor was pretty much non-existent, and become a non-factor when members joined without the Nails.

The truth is that the Big E probably COULD have tried to remove the nails from the Primach's brain, but one of two things would've happened

>Angron dies
>Angron survives and the nails are removed, but now he's "less than he was" and not exactly Primarch material anymore

The Emperor could've decided it just wasn't worth it, but then again this IS the same idiot that decided to have a couple of legions blow up a Word Bearer's city dedicated to him.

Fuck off Logar ya gay nerd

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Primarch loyalties were influenced by a lot of things. Angron didn't want his crew to be rescued; Angron wanted to die. From the instant the Butcher's Nails were inserted into his skull, Angron was doomed to feel nothing but bloodlust and hate. When your brain is chemically unable to feel happiness, there are only two possibilities:

1. You're healed somehow, through medication and therapy and self-improvement.

2. You fucking kill yourself to escape.

The archaeotech of the Nails removed Option 1 as a possibility. Through the grace of Khorne, Chaos offered a second chance at healing -- but like all of Chaos' gifts, it was a twisted kind. Where the Nails were a kind of lobotomy, wherein your capacity for joy beyond violence is cut away, Khorne grants you joy beyond measure in combat.

Khorne is the opiate that makes the Butcher's Nails worth living with. Angron was always going to find Khorne, because the alternative was knowing you're dying the worst kind of death imaginable. And he was always going to become a Daemon Prince of Khorne, because the alternative was dying regardless.

This is so god damn dumb. A jammed gun taking your fingers off is the perfect allegory - and it's even worse in the Emperor's case. Because instead of just tossing the irreparably jammed prototype gun, he uses it which retrocatively breaks every other gun that was based on the design.

Is there an 8th Edition update to Siege Assault Breacher Tacticals? I have a shieldwall sitting on my shelf but can't find rules for them

I don't believe that Angron wanted to die. Kurze was a man who wanted to die.
I think Angron wanted to be happy but was too damaged to know any better. He reminds me a lot of substance abusers who logically understand the danger of their substance but can't stop because they are addicted. I think if Angron wanted to die, he would've allowed the titan to crush him, nor would he tunnel his way to salvation after being buried.

And if you'd expect this kind of miraculous survival from anyone, wouldn't it be a physical demigod whose operation was done by another physical demigod who was likely the most knowledgeable about demigod physiology?

GW just wanted to crash Angron with no survivors.

The thing Angron wanted most was freedom - that's his light side, Angron on his best day is Angron the Liberator.

Problem is, he's got the Nails in his head - he can never be free from that. Which means that he wants to die.

And unfortunately for that, by his physiology as a primarch, his training as a gladiator, and his natural inclinations, by all factors, Angron is a fighter - he can't just give in and lay down and die.

I wouldn't "expect" a miracle. If you are expecting a miracle then it's not a miracle.

Angron was a lost cause. Even without the nails he likely would have been a blood thirsty moron like his legion was prior to finding him

Many people don't realize that biomancy was actually the emperor's strongest psychic discipline. Archeotech can do some serious shit, but the big E absolutely should've been able to handle it. That he did not heal Angron is purely the result of terrible writing which paints him not only as a psychopath, but as a stupid psychopath.

Would be a sensable one, but alas the current writers want big e to be the villan

How I'd have done angron, his gladiators are left behind as the influence of khorne was on them, he is operated on and gets the nails removed but the scars from all this, both mental and physical leave him much the same character wise but within the ability to feasibly heal, but his resentiment and for the enperor and mourning for his gladiator buddies ends him in a downward spiral, shaking up with Horus on his own will. Eventually he finds that he can't cope with his emotions and rejects them, having a new operation preformed on him and all his legion to install new nails, deadening them to all but the thirst for combat and rage, adding a dimension to his fall by having him take the nails over the pain of having other emptions

No, he would had bitched because he didn't carpet bombed his home planet or because he didn't killed the ruling class or some other thing, Angron is forever victim complex one way or another he would had ended betraying the Emperor.

The only scenario with Angron remaining loyal needs him to not be a trash primarch and prevent the slavers from Nail him and ultimately rising to rule the planet, you know what every other primarch did, but not him, not Angron the mongrel, Angron the blind, Angron the powerless, Angron the forever slave

World waters and space wolves two timing Horus would had stopped the heresy much sooner though.

>arkan land
>anything other than the imperium's luckiest grave robber
whatever you say senpai

Guilliman didn't come out of the fight looking bad, but there's no way he could have won ultimately. Angron is totally beyond his league.

>he would had bitched because he didn't carpet bombed his home planet or because he didn't killed the ruling class or some other thing

Source?

user got it wrong its not so much a tumor is its a straight up replacement for major areas of the brain.

It is fucking with the stuff around it, but its also replacing a lot of it too.

Look at Mike Pence's smug face.
He knows his day will come. He knows that the man he supports will be impeached somewhere down the line, falling down like the fool he is.
Or perhaps not. We'll see what the future brings.

The way you typed that all out makes me think you're a really weird sperg

I can picture Angron the Highrider now.

Can I go back in time and replace the GW writers with you?

Guilliman always seems like he's a very economical fighter from the few fights we have had written out, very practiced and precise, nothing too fancy or bursty and favors longer fights where he has time to break down an opponents fighting style

he would have died

That's pretty high praise, I also would have played up the wolf sons rivalry by emphasizing how their roles could have esily been reversed and the similarities they have despite their hatred.

When I read about the fact that their wolf spirit of fenris is real, I nearly puked

The Emperor did try to undo the damage, he flat out says it to Arkhan Land, but he realised that he couldn't. He wasn't actually familiar with the original archaeotech, even Land only knew of "crude" versions.

>You are looking at modifications to my original template of the Twelfth. More precisely, you are looking at modifications of primitive genius. Before these examinations, I had believed the enhancements performed upon the Twelfth on Nuceria were the source of its emotional instability. My hypothesis was that they stirred the Twelfth to a sense of perpetual but ultimately artificial rage. Yet the opposite is true. With the alterations made to the limbic lobe and insular cortex, the surgeons have impaired the Twelfth’s ability to regulate any emotion at all. Furthermore, they have rethreaded its capacity to take pleasure in anything but the sensation of anger. They are the only chemicals and electrical signals that flow freely through, and from, its brain. All else is either dulled to nothingness or rewired to inspire a supreme degree of agony. It is a testament to the durability of my primarch project that the Twelfth has managed to survive this long.

>‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.
>Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite. Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.
>‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

At this point I'd declare it a mercy to put him down myself, but hey, I'm not his daddy

Favouring longer fights will ultimately doom him against opponents notably more skilled than he. You see it against Fulgrim in Dark Imperium, where Fulgrim is simply so much better that inside of two or three strikes, Bobby G knows that he has no chance whatsoever of winning.

>le 'only needs to survive to the end of the Crusade'
>le 'broken sword can still cut'
Although and are more accurate with the gun allegory than the sword one, in my opinion.

Agreed, I've already read through, I like the idea the other user had for the nails being removed and it all just being trauma from it all up to that point, makes him feel more like a character and not just a token victim

Couldnt they try to reprogram or modify the nails themselves? It feels stupid that the only two solutions are either removing them or keeping them as it is.

Probably not, since he considered what Big E was doing little different from the Slave Holders of his world.

He basically told Russ the only reason he went along on the Crusade was the prospect of killing things.

No he didnt hold his ground. Robbie wad dragged away by his troops.

What triggers me is that single fight they had, avenging son was depicted to have two 2 power gauntlets. No sword.

Probably. He and his crew would have ran the legion just like Russ and his crew ran the Rout. But the Emperor had no need for two Routs.

Furthermore, there would have been a chance that Angron would have simply been content with dying to his Nails if the Emperor saved his rebels. After all, the Nails made Angron a simpleton and he had no real aspiration for humanity, the Great Crusade, or even for himself.

Mike Pence is happy either way.

>He remains VP for 1-2 terms, get to MAGA
or
>Trump is impeached, he gets to declare legal jihad on fags and libs

Not him, but it's a miracle to squishy humans, not primarchs. Even as a baby, for instance, Mortarion is unaffected by the poisonous fumes of his homeworld, which were inevitably lethal to normal humans. We're talking about Space-marine-squared levels of resilience. I don't think it's anywhere near unreasonable to expect them to survive ANYTHING a normal human can. Now, take into account that the surgery would have been conducted by the galaxy's greatest scientific genius, whose virtually unlimited psychic powers were only second to the chaos gods themselves.

Wanna know how I know you could never write for BL?
That makes more sense as to how people function.

I actually like the idea of The Emperor co-operating with other scientific minds. Makes him seem like less of a mong. He probably had *some* respect for academics at least, people who could create. Likely the only people he had any respect for, since they were the only ones capable of coming close to even grasping a 10th of what he was on about. We know he was bro's with Malcador for this exact reason, and it's also why he originally held Horus in such high regard, because he was exceptional even among the Primarchs.

Brain tumors that are localized. Do you know how unlikely it is to survive a brain tumor at stage IV, or even stage III, where it has gone and spread throughout the entirety of the brain or even worse? Worse yet, to remove it? Like heresy it digs roots that have to be cut lest it becomes too late to revive that patient in question.

thats fair, I feel like Veeky Forums should write up their own version based on head cannoned events with the specific limitations that it has to lead to modern 40k and can't have any means of averting recent story happenings, bonus points if it adds to them via reinforcement.

I mean, the BL version of events is past salvage and it'll be years before GW ever thinks of re-retconning them, so we should do something

I mean Veeky Forums has terrible taste in general, but anything is better than Fucknugget McDaddyIssues.

hmmm.... maybe I'll just write up a skeleton treatment, college gives me not enough time to ever consider anything on par with the HH novel series of length

I will never say "don't" to writefaggotry.
Not even My Immortal tier fanshitsion.
DESU FFG handled 40k better than BL.

No. At least probably not.

He knew there wouldn't be a future, or at least anything resembling a future that isn't spattered with gore, while he and his gladiator buddies had those nails in their heads. They knew they were going to die, but it was on their own terms, as a last act of defiance against their cruel masters.

The Emperor, even if he saved Angron's gladiators, would have taken from them their chance to own something that was truly theirs and not for anyone else's taking. Instead he just made a surrogate, even if fairer, master to Angron, and couldn't remove the nails that would be Angron's undoing.

Far better a fate would have been to ask Angron if he'd let his Legion from the stars fight alongside him, as his sons in blood even if he never knew them. If Angron and his legion live, they have earned their kinship and his loyalty; and if everyone dies, then it's Exterminatus and any remaining World Eaters are dissolved into other Legions. Bigger risk, bigger gain. But still, you'd have to figure out the part with the fucking nails, though.

small chance, angron will stick around with big E in start of of heresy but his gladiators are will likely join Horus so he'll either be corrupted by choice(Horus) or by force (khorne). mortarion's story all over again expect it world eaters.

...

EoM is a gay fag.
>Look at this super crazy weapon I don't eeven consider a son
>Perhaps I should deal with this
>Nah
Should've been killed on the spot.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, this is headcanon that I'm incorporating for my own 40k. If you want to write up some synopsis of this character and possibly others, I'd take it for alt-40k canon.

I mean, we still make the distinction between GW canon and our own headcanon, but it's fun to play in a slightly different playspace. Not much actual change to 40k as a setting, if any at all, just a little background details to flesh it out better.

The emperor didn't want to remove the nails and he wanted the world eaters to use them. Of all the things that he told primarchs to stop doing the butchers nails would have been among them if he actually wanted it to stop.

>Far better a fate would have been to ask Angron if he'd let his Legion from the stars fight alongside him, as his sons in blood even if he never knew them.
Angron would probably have told them to fuck off, he didn't intend to or want to live, because he couldn't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

At the time Emps encountered Angron, based on the HH novels as shit as they are, it also seems like he thought that he could fix the Nails. It was only after a more thorough examination that he realised he couldn't. His train of thought was probably something to the effect of:

>finally another Primarch, I was wondering where this one had gotten to
>hmm, why hasn't he conquered his world?
>damn, looks like this one is a bit of a failure
>wonder why, I mean he should be more than able to
>oh shit, he's in trouble, how is this-
>waitaminute, what's that in his head?
>crap
>crapping crap
>don't have time to fix that thing fucking with his head right now
>okay, gotta think, if he fights he'll die, even a Primarch ain't gonna survive that
>wait, you don't want to come with me and live?
>shit
>well, he's not in his right mind
>I know, I'll teleport him up anyway and take him with me, too bad for the other gladiators but they're all fucked anyway, they'll still get their glorious death
>I'll fix the stuff in my Primarch's head and he'll be fine again
>oh shit, I can't fix the stuff in his head
>fuck
>fucking fuck
>need a new plan, shit
>well, he lost a bunch of gladiator pals, I'll give him his Legion to lead, hopefully that takes his mind off it and lets him make some friends to deal with the ones he's lost

He literally sends Russ to pull Angron up short.