/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

What was Mage 1st like? Before Brucato?

He's talking about oWoD. They had other Shapeshifters, like Helios chosen - werelizards, of all sorts. No weredragons, but werekomodos were apparently fucking terrifying and the closest thing to a lindworm you'll ever run into.

They were basically the memory banks of Gaia.

Not that different to after, to be honest. It was always hit and miss.

Yes, that is definitely what I was doing.

Skin Stealers need some part of the animal to transform, True Shifters don't.

How can you not know about the Lizard Shifters of Helios?

Could you use one Shifting Sands spell after another to get arbitrarily far away in the past?

Before arch mastery you can only travel within your own lifespan.

Helio - the spirit of the sun. The thirsty god of the sky. A consistent ball of fury. Starter level 'crazy celestial spirit' (since all spirits from space are inherently alien and hard to understand).

In older games he had were lizards like Luna has werewolves. And instead of being based on phases of the moon, they were based on sun phases.

>they were based on sun phases.
Like what? Sunrise, noon, and sunset?

I think exactly that.

But you have no problem preventing whatever happened within your lifespan, are you?

Yeah, you can do that with Time. You can alter history and change things, although spamming Shifting Sands probably wouldn't be such a great way to do it.

Do the 2e books not have a recommendation of how much XP to give for character creation for different game levels like the 1e books do?

Next time someone sees DaveB's ragged ass, ask him why Mage spells don't add supernatural tolerance to withstand.

Between Gnosis + Arcana, and then sometimes having rotes to add a rote skill/or some other yantra. It seems more than enough to get through resistance + tolerance like the powers of most other creeps.

So it can't be that the dice pool would be too small right?

And isn't that exactly why 'supernatural tolerance' exists. To resist supernatural effects?

It is just odd. Maybe in practice it comes out the same, but it just seems like a pointless reversal of the usual rules.

Love,
someone trying to ST mage

Supernatural Tolerance adds to contested rolls (where you roll and the higher success wins) not to resisted ones (where you subtract a flat score from the dicepool as a difficulty).

You can't contest a mage building a spell in their own head. Withstand is *more* effective than resisted, as it reduces Potency, which means the caster either hopes for exceptional success or removes twice as many dice as he would if it were resisted.

In other news, Demon (among other games) has no way to resist its powers *at all*, and Werewolf is full of "I always win" gifts. For some goddamn reason, you don't see people bitching about those. why oh why could it be... Oh. Yeah. Mage.

If ST were added to withstand, mages would never be able to cast spells on one another. That is more important than crossover balance.

Vaguely on topic but something I've been meaning to ask for a while. Have you run D:tD outside of the general playtesting I assume you guys do at OPP, and if so how did it go? It seems like the type of game that was made for your style of GMing.

>no tripcode

Is this the real Dave?

No, it's Veeky Forums.

It's his goatee sporting evil twin

Remind me, why is it that a lot of people dislike the Strix?

Because they look like owls but aren't actually.

Even when owls are heavily symbolic with vampirism around the world.

I'm actually unfamiliar with that second point. Any examples? That sounds interesting.

Get off your fat ass and go read it.

Demense and as many reaches as you like = up to your lifespan

>Even when owls are heavily symbolic with vampirism around the world.

More so in the West, as in Europe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampires_in_popular_culture#Strix
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_(mythology)

>What is google?

>It's his goatee sporting evil twin
Dale? BevaD?

Rpgnet is said to be cancer, anybody willing to provide links to said cancer?

...

>Is this the real Dave?

Indeed it is. Here's some earlier DaveB Tripcode-confirmed pearls of wisdom about Withstand.

What sort of Gifts could a Spirit mage counter? And how many dots would it require?

A problem with withstand is spells which have a primary factor of potency for example "Annihilate Spirit" at base you are going to have 10 dice from gnosis and spirit with a base potency of 5 for just -2 dice you get potency 6 which is enough to destroy any rank 1-5 spirit. Thats right 8 dice needing 1 success.

If spirit masters arnt solving all spirit related problems in your games you have to ask yourself why? "Im busy" is just a lame excuse.

Spirit 2 counters all gifts. Read Ephemeral shield.

They're ok minor antagonists but they don't got enough going for them to be the central enemy splat.

For vampires, Strix are not a "minor" threat. Vampire abilities are ill-suited to deal with corpse-possessing sentient shadows.

The fucking werefags are going to start howling like bitches just because spirit 2 counters their stupid gift powers.

Wait for it.

They're too random and disorganized to form an existential threat to the leeches like the Pure do the Forsaken, the Seers do the Pentacle or the True Fae the Changelings.

Going body snatcher they can sure fuck your city up though, which is threat enough?

Probably. Last time Shielding was brought up they seemed to assume that just because Shielding is a two-dot practice that it shouldn't be as potent a defensive tool as it is, although Shielding spells generally won't be worth very much against more powerful supernatural attacks if they're cast by a Mage with the bare minimum, Gnosis 1 and Arcanum 2.

What do the Strix do to vampires? I know they body snatch but is that it? They would be cool in my book if they fed on vampires the way vampires feed on humans.

The Practices aren't as linear as some (most?) tend to believe, which is the big mistake here.

Each has a different purpose. Hell, the Practice of Knowing is extraordinarily powerful as is.

No, that's not even all that unique. Strix are dumb shadow spirits who have no collective goals or ambitions and are usually flat as a pancake as individual characters. It'd be like trying to make the Spirit-Claimed the headliners for Forsaken.

Strix terrify the Kindred because they possess the DEAD, not the living. They're also really good fucking actors.

It's like The Thing, when there's a Strix in town everyone is paranoid. Better call your local Moros.

This would be fine, BevaD, if spells were contested like most powers like them would be.

So now what, we have to assume a clash of wills around every corner so a powerful spirit/ghost doesn't get turned into a potatoe because it had half as many dice in defense of the mage's reality warping powers.

I dont think the strix are as dumb as you make out. Collective goal is to fuck with kindred which they are really good at.

Not much is going to clash vs a "fuck you" spell.
Spirits have "not fuck me" shielding numina do they?

Are you one of the retards who think clashes happen to everything? I use a supernatural power vs X so it gets to clash?

Unless a ghost/spirit has a numina directly opposing the spell they wont even get a clash.

Strix aren't a collective though, they don't have Strix club meetings like the Pure or the Seers or anything. has the right idea, you don't use Strix as the main bad guy, you drop them in to show how your Vamps have gotten complaisant with how their city goes and one body stealing demon pigeon fucks all that up.

They're cool enemies when a ST knows how to play them right.

That's the opposite of what that post says man.

Okay, Grog here.

It was an unplayable mess. Kind of like M20 but a third of the page count and no one knew what to do with this shiny little toy that they'd created. Everything was a mess, the factions made no sense and technocrats were cartoon villains that made it so that vaccines really do give you autism (this didn't persist past first edition. I will cite sources. Fite me, faggit!)

I'm going to come right out and say it: Phil Brucato's worthlessness is a recent innovation, owing to the fact that he is apparently a huge joiner faggot, going along with anything novel and socially approved without ever thinking too critically about it.

He was not always this way. Uncle Phil retooled the game, starting with the Book of Shadows which was basically Mage 1.5. He gave it workable, though imperfect rules and retooled the Technocracy into believable villains and started laying the groundwork for this in The Book of Mirrors. In that time, he gave us the guide to the Technocracy, The Book of Mirrors, The Book of Chantries, The Book of Madness, Tales of Magick: Dark Adventure, The Orphan's Survival Guide and Infernalism: The Path of Screams. All excellent books and if you can ignore some early installment Wonk, they still hold up. Phil is the reason that the game was popular enough to create a massive fan backlash in the first place when he shit all over the bed with M20.

>(this didn't persist past first edition. I will cite sources. Fite me, faggit!)
Do it, I couldn't find the vaccine references when I looked.

Progenitors: First Edition.

Page number?

Promethean is the worst gameline

That's not Vampire.

Continuation of an earlier Hunter storytime.

After my players, playing as themselves, defended against a team of slashers, they realized that I wasn't present in the house anymore. After jokes about how I'm a shut in and that was typical, they tried to figure out why my room was empty, and what could be happening.

Then, I was there again. I can't even remember at this point how they realized something was 'off', but eventually they came to the conclusion that I was not my original self. So they kidnapped me, and began to continue their investigation.

After some coercion of the Not!Me, the players figure out that the actual one had been stolen and sent through a mirror in the room. They did the same, following the mirror through. It lead them into a world of thorns and strangeness, a gateway to the Hedge.

The best idea at the time seemed to be to follow the hedge, doing their best not to get lost. That quickly fell apart, the thorns doing their best to rip them apart no matter how careful they were. Eventually they looked for some place to rest, and found a little cottage in the hedge.

They knock at the little house's door, and an old lady greets them. She was happy to let them in, feed them, but she was a little too forceful in asking them to stay the night. Like, 'the door magically slamming in their face' forceful. They got ready to fight, but the old lady didn't seem to care about getting hurt. She was fast, but moved in an unnatural way.

One of them missed so hard that the knife they were carrying plunged into the wall, and the whole house trembled and groaned in the pain.

One of the other players immediately turned and stabbed the nearest wall before even waiting for further ST explanation of what was happening.

They were inside a giant 'angler fish' style monster house, the old nice woman the bait.

That ain't Geist.

That isn't Mage

You two had better shut your whore mouths.

What's your favorite of the published Dark Eras?

Is there a reason why Mages are the best at magic in the WoD setting, old and new, and not fae related beings? Why are Changelings so weak? Not that the True Fae aren't ungodly powerful.

Why humans? Just look at Supernatural, fairies are better than witches.

It's actually the second best, just behind Changeling. The worst gamelines are Werewolf, Mage, and Beast.

>Supernatural
Why are you using a crap show as the basis for your asinine assumption?

>Why are Changelings so weak?

Because changelings are the house slave runaways of the big stronk magic fairies. They aren't supposed to be powerful.

Magical wizard-like casting isn't the central identity of Changeling design, that's really all.

Changelings are good at contracts, bargains. The sort of stuff Brownies and Fae do to get what they want. They are living Monkey's paws.

But for donald duck style I AM A WIZARD, you go to a sorcerer, not a fairy.

What are you saying? That you want Changelings to be stronger than Mages or better at magic and therefore stronger?

>But for donald duck style I AM A WIZARD, you go to a sorcerer, not a fairy.
user please. This is an entirely inaccurate description.

It's Daffy. Daffy Duck.

>Magical wizard-like casting isn't the central identity of Changeling design
This is false. Just look at the Autumn Court. Changelings as a whole are instinctively magical by nature.

Basically? Why should unmagical humans be better at something certain species live and breath?

You remind me of those D&D idiots complaining that human wizards are better than elven wizards in both gameplay and lore.

>Why should unmagical humans be better at something certain species live and breath?
I have also read Dresden Files. But Changelings aren't Fae with a capital F, user. True Fae, as they are in these settings, are more powerful than human Mages when they're in Arcadia.

>Changelings as a whole are instinctively magical by nature.
Isn't a huge theme of Changeling learning to cope with your new magical existence?

Wow, I'm tired. Yeah Daffy Duck, not Donald.

Mages DO live and breathe magic. It permeates their entire existence. That's the problem. Changelings AREN'T faeries. they're humans twisted by faeries into magically warped, corrupted beings. The real faeries are the True Fae, and they will fuck up Mages just fine.

What splats would actually fix physical disabilities when the character goes from human to supernatural?

Yeah. Except even Archmages overdo them. It irks me. You eventually reach a point where humans are just better, and it's bothersome.

I'm fine with Mages being powerful, I just think Changeling has more rights on a "Magic!" theme than Awakening.

Archmages really aren't important to the setting. They are their own level of play, and best ignored.

They may as well not exist for how often they do anything in the fluff.

> Except even Archmages overdo them
No do they fucking do not. Within Arcadia the Gentry are absolutely omnipotent. They're the most powerful beings in the WoD setting when they're in Arcadia.

>Beast

Am I the only person who genuinly enjoy BtP? from the lurking i did it seems to be the case....

I believe Werewolves first change can. They go from whatever problems they were having to just being big angry woofmans.

Have cerebral palsy? Screw that, now you look like Peter Parker after he wakes up from getting bit by the spider.

What's to enjoy about it?

*checks records*
Yes

Archmages are human only by a pretty loose definition of the word. At high levels of Gnosis you become detached from the mundane on an inherent level, and they don't even age right. Or maybe not at all, I forget how that bit works. They also become basically gods of their own little realm. And as an user just pointed out, a True Fae in Arcadia is still insanely powerful and can be much stronger than an Archmage.

>I just think Changeling has more rights on a "Magic!" theme than Awakening.
You are of course entitled to this opinion. I don't really understand it, but you are entitled to it.

Archmages do exist in the canon. They're in the canon. Merlin. The Corpus Author. The King who Is a Throne. They're all pivotal to certain facets of the lore.

That's not a pissing match you want to have.

The reality is that The Gentry are gods in their realm through most of the power level of the game.

But the top end of Mage takes on gods. So while most archmages couldn't take on a True Fae that wanted to rumble. An absolute 'my hips are ascending on their own' Archmage would still be able to maybe.

>he says true fae can beat an obsessed archmage

Thanks at least no more doubt now :)

Read it, like it, can't explain, why, maybe i got shitty tast I supose? the power fantasy is probably why if i'm honest with myself, City Wide Terror born from your own urban legend maybe? can be done with any gameline i suppose, but still, can't help going back every few month to read it and make charachter, never ran any campaign tho, too much on my plate already.

Not really.

Can you play Mage without knowing any of them?
Can you play a full campaign without any of them coming up?
Will they have to show up or be mentioned in a Mage game?

Then they aren't pivotal.

You know who is Pivotal in lore? Father Wolf, Mother Luna, the God Machine.

I think he means that Archmages are in fact canon based on the lore. And by "facets" he means certain settings like pre-deleted Camelot or the backstory of the Mysterium.

He said pivotal to certain parts, not the main premise of the entire game.

Yeah, they exist. But it is like worrying about what the Avengers are off doing while reading a street level comicbook.

They are off facing world-crushing threats, or off in space saving the galaxy. Your comic is about a guy stopping a mugging.

Archmages aren't important because they just aren't in the same game world as much as it matters.

[Warning: Comicbook metaphors never hold completely true. The Avengers have focused on street level threats, and many street level heroes like Spider-man have ended up recruited for world-romping adventures. Don't think too long.]

>Within Arcadia the Gentry are absolutely omnipotent.
>They're the most powerful beings in the WoD setting when they're in Arcadia.

Is that you King's Raven? Overestimating your precious Gentry again, are we?