/stg/ - Star Trek General - /trek/

The best VOY episodes are really TOS episodes edition

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memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Genetic_engineering
ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/bajorans1.htm
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youtube.com/watch?v=U2g9sfhtBRo
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Why haven't you started a game in the Triangle yet, anons?

Oh damn, this episode where Kes is a dominating bitch is great, too bad they had to justify it with having a male personality possess her.

Still scouting for a good workable location for my game. Considering the local Denny's as a possibility - they probably won't mind us taking up one table for our game and ordering drinks and food if we're there on a Monday afternoon...

I hated that episode actually. Of course I hated almost all of the Kes centric episodes, but that's just me.

Usually they're shit but this one has the advantage of not having a lot of the character.

Why do so many Sci-Fi shows have a creepy dream clown episode? What the fuck does that say about writers?

Did Farscape? Or did Harvey count as a creepy dream clown?

I'm pretty sure this guy
should quit the Voyager if he's having a bad reaction to it, it's not something everyone can handle.

His first appearance most definetly so, he got more relaxed after awhile.

I started with enterprise as it was on tv, then recently watched ds9 and voy. Tng has been awful so far in season 1. I liked voyager. Its worst episodes were never as bad as run away home or the tng pilot it just had a lot of inconsistent writing and/or mediocre episodes. The good episodes like the voth one were still good.

>Tng has been awful so far in season 1.
It instantly becomes amazing in season three. Well, after one episode, depending on your Wesley tolerance. The only eps before then worth watching are Measure of a Man and the season 2 Q one.

There's an episode in season 1 where Chrichton and that Peacekeeper that wanted him dead got stuck in a dreamworld/alternate dimension that was ruled over by a lunatic clown.

Maldis was best wizard, not clown.

Yeah I sat through every episode of voyager even workforce and the early chakotay episodes (muh dad, muh vision quests) so the idea there is even one episode this bad let alone a whole season is disheartening. Im liking tos and rewatching ENT.

I can't really say why, but when the Doctor showed up and corrected his grip on the scalpel, it was one of my favorite Vger moments.

I've gamed at a Dennys during slow hours before, it worked out great.

Interesting question.
Exactly how much flair and dramatic panache can a villain have before they shift from stylish to clownish?

54916076
Bashir was very borderline augment ambition though, his best friends were an ex-Soldier and fucking Garak. This should have spooked fucking everyone. If he wasn't so much of a pussy he would have conquered something eventually, probly pro-Federation conquering though.

It seems more to me that Bashir is stupendously unambitious and chooses the company of people who can in certain areas can match or exceed his competence, probably out of respect issues.

Yeah, he could have had the ability but chose to just not and live it out in a fantasy land instead. For an augment he's really very specialized on being a high-functioning mediocre doctor.
>Barely even professionally recognized because of his age
>Not an obvious prodigy outshining the oldest of his peers
I mean clearly their augmentation process was flawed, judging by his special needs squad.

Bashir didn't get the full Khan treatment. He got his Downs sorted out and his mum and dad were all like "whilst we're here lets not settle for a half job".

What annoys me is how Star Fleet dealt with it.

Despite years of loyal service, countless lives saved and having repeatedly gone above and beyond for the Star Fleet and the UFP they decided to throw him away because "we just don't like your type around these here parts, boy". The justification was that some augments somewhere else centuries ago did some bad things.

And then they throw his dad in prison because Bashir joined Star Fleet. That's the sort of thing that reminds me of the good old USSR and how they wouldn't let you cross the border unless at least one family member remained behind as a totally not a hostage.

Or because of it being illegal on Earth and possibly the rest of the UFP if you want some work done you have to go to Space Tropico.

Do tell me more, stranger

Hey look, it's another "I didn't bother actually watching the episodes but I'll complain anyway" shitposter.

I did watch the episode.

O'Brian and the hologram specialist learned that Bashir was an augment by making a holographic imitation.

Hologram specialist files his report.

Ross makes noises that there will have to be repercussions because "muh Khan" got to discourage people from becoming better or everyone will be doing it. Which is bad for some reason.

Admiral Ross, Sisko and Bashir's dad come to an agreement behind closed doors and Dad Bashir gets sent to prison because someone has to be seen to be punished for this terrible crime of making a good doctor.

End on TOS worth funny note indicating that Bashir has been letting O'Brian win at darts for years.

What I want to know..surely not all the augments on Earth died out, and surely they had some kids. So what happened to the descendants of augments that didn't go powermad? Either there's a good chunk of humanity with some augment dna or there was some kind of witch hunt in the early days of the Federation that no one talks about.

You don't understand user, genetic manipulation disrupts the natural course of evolution and the Cosmic Plan and is therefor super evil bad wrong. All of the Augments went evil down to the very last one so killing all of them was a good thing to do. Can't have that nasty anti-evolution blood polluting humanity, not one drop.

Also what the fuck happened to the human telepaths?

1) Regardless of his career, Bashir lied and covered up a serious crime for 14 or 15 years at the time of that episode. That's not the thing that Starfleet can or should take lightly.
2) Bashir's dad didn't get sent to prison just because Bashir joined Starfleet, he would have regardless of what Bashir did if that knowledge had gotten out. (It was two years in a minimum security facility by the way, he was out before the war ended)
3) Genetic manipulation is a very delicate and easily fucked-up process. For every one Bashir who turns out well there are dozens of augments like the others who show up who end up mentally FUBAR'd. Additionally, even if genetic manipulation was 100% perfect, allowing it would lead to a privileged class of augments dominating every important possession while everyone else became a sub-class simply because their parents didn't want to get their kids augmented, or couldn't afford to in the black market if still illegal. The Federation doesn't want a Gattaca situation.

>got to discourage people from becoming better or everyone will be doing it. Which is bad for some reason.

In universe it's bad for two reasons, first it's really dangerous procedure with high level of failures, those augmented people Bashir deals in the two later episodes are a norm rather than exception. Second for every Bashir you get several Khans who are really smart but also clearly mentally unstable people.

>genetic manipulation disrupts the natural course of evolution and the Cosmic Plan and is therefor super evil bad wrong.
>because "we just don't like your type around these here parts, boy". The justification was that some augments somewhere else centuries ago did some bad things.
>because "muh Khan" got to discourage people from becoming better or everyone will be doing it. Which is bad for some reason.
See: The Eugenics Wars
They were a series of conflicts fought on Earth between 1992 and 1996. (heh)
The result of a scientific attempt to improve the Human race through selective breeding and genetic engineering, the wars devastated parts of Earth, by some estimates officially causing some thirty million deaths, and nearly plunging the planet into a new Dark Age.

If you still have trouble understanding why they would be reluctant to reopen that Pandora's Box, I just feel sorry for you.

Also this.

The colony of happy, peaceful augmented humans in the TNG episode where people grow old quickly would seem to contradict that. The failed augments were done by UFP equivalent of back ally abortionists.

>Second for every Bashir you get several Khans who are really smart but also clearly mentally unstable people.
By that reasoning we should stop using matches because making matches causes phossy jaw. Understanding and procedure has moved on since WW3.

>1) Regardless of his career, Bashir lied and covered up a serious crime for 14 or 15 years at the time of that episode. That's not the thing that Starfleet can or should take lightly.

He was born on Earth to citizens of Earth, was more human than Spock, had no additional medical needs and beyond the infatuation with Jadzia had no psychological problems. I'm not seeing a problem.

>2) Bashir's dad didn't get sent to prison just because Bashir joined Starfleet, he would have regardless of what Bashir did if that knowledge had gotten out. (It was two years in a minimum security facility by the way, he was out before the war ended)

>3) Genetic manipulation is a very delicate and easily fucked-up process.
And isn't going to get any better until some time and effort is put into it, which will never happen so long as Star Fleet maintains the taboo.

>For every one Bashir who turns out well there are dozens of augments like the others who show up who end up mentally FUBAR'd.
Because they went to Space Cuba because the UFP doesn't like people getting better.

>The Federation doesn't want a Gattaca situation.
The Federation doesn't want a congenital disorder free society of healthy, long lived, intelligent people? Why the fuck not? This is some serious anti-vaxxer level shit

Genetic manipulation is allowed to deal with actual diseases. It's not allowed to turn your kid into Superman. It's only your headcanon that says that genetic manipulation isn't being looked at and you're retarded. Obviously if it's used for medical purposes then the process is still being developed. It's not allowed because the process when abused for augmentation purposes is still unstable. Come back when you have an argument actually based on what's presented in the shows and not your personal headcanon.

>If you still have trouble understanding why they would be reluctant to reopen that Pandora's Box, I just feel sorry for you.
Yes. I am.

Look at surgery from 400 years ago. It shows little relation to what we have now. I see no reason that it should not continue to get better for the next 400.

Khan was made with brutal 4 centuries old procedures than intentionally raised and taught by the UN to be a "Peace Keeping" super soldier and commander of super soldiers. He became a warlord.

Bashir was made with far better understanding and raised and taught by people that loved and cared for him as a person. He dedicated his life to helping the sick and afflicted.

The UFP, especially Star Fleet, is haunted by irrational fears.

>Bashir was made with far better understanding and raised and taught by people that loved and cared for him as a person. He dedicated his life to helping the sick and afflicted.
Bashir was one anomaly that very clearly wasn't the norm for augments. Or in other words, WATCH THE FUCKING SHOW.

It's not allowed for cultural and historical reasons. Bashir was perfectly stable, and it seems likely that the source of Khan's megalomania was being taught from birth that he was better than other people and needed to conquer them for their own good.

>Genetic manipulation is allowed to deal with actual diseases
Which Bashir had
>It's not allowed to turn your kid into Superman
Why?
>Obviously if it's used for medical purposes then the process is still being developed
Then they should have made enough progress and understanding over the years to start safely making people less shit.
>It's not allowed because the process when abused for augmentation purposes is still unstable
How exactly do you define "augmentation purposes"? Anything above the average?
>Come back when you have an argument actually based on what's presented in the shows and not your personal headcanon.
I haven't stated anything that isn't derived from what has been seen in the show.

Were they made in a UFP sanctioned medical facility?

If yes you have a point. Though it does make the UFP hugely hypocritical.

If not then they were not made by UFP doctors but by shitty Space Cuban "medical" practitioners.

Pushing a Nurture ahead of Nature flies in the face of Star Fleet's "you belong with your own kind" policy.

>I haven't stated anything that isn't derived from what has been seen in the show.
It is literally only your headcanon that the Federation isn't working on making genetic manipulation safer, which is a retarded headcanon to have. Clearly they would be, since it's used by actual Federation physicians in legitimate, clearly-defined medicinal roles.

You have zero evidence that the procedure is any more or less safe wherever somebody has it done.

>It is literally only your headcanon that the Federation isn't working on making genetic manipulation safer, which is a retarded headcanon to have. Clearly they would be, since it's used by actual Federation physicians in legitimate, clearly-defined medicinal roles

And if that were the case then they should be getting good at it, but if augmentation is still illegal because they aren't good at it then they are either not exchanging notes or they aren't doing any new research into it.

So there would be no reason for their aversion beyond "muh Khan".

>And if that were the case then they should be getting good at it, but if augmentation is still illegal because they aren't good at it then they are either not exchanging notes or they aren't doing any new research into it.
Or maybe it's because genetics is fucking complicated and fucking around with that shit is an easy way to make mutant space cancer regardless of how long they've been working at it.

So the UFP, 150 inhabited technologically advanced words, trillions of well educated citizens, hundreds of thousands of medical professionals haven't been able to find a way of refining ye olde Earth genetic engineering?

Despite having working examples of it done right to copy.

And it's entirely possible that Khan and his kind would have been fine if they were raised to be something other than warlords and child soldiers. Also in the TOS episode it was outright stated by either Kirk or Scotty that Khan's empire was not aggressive and only took the territories of those who attacked him first, so despite being raised to be monstrous he wasn't entirely a bastard.

They haven't refined it in a way that results in no after effects. Cases like Bashir are happy outliers, not the norm. I don't know why this is difficult for you to grasp unless you're somehow expecting your fictional space people to be perfect gods or something.

The only people trying to refine it are criminals. It's illegal not only to use the technology as it existed 400 years ago, but also to try to make it better. The "only for treating disease" restriction is defined so narrowly that mental retardation is not considered a disease.

>Cases like Bashir are happy outliers
Nope

Not if you exclude things done outside the UFP. When done by competent doctors you get space people gods.

TNG Season 2 episode 7 Unnatural Selection.

Superior in every way and bar the immune system no ill effects and psychic powers.

So that's 8 good augments, 9 if you count Bashir against 4 fuck ups that may or may not have been done UFP doctors.

Assuming that there were only the 8 augments on the research planet that we see on screen.

I'd say that creating a disease that can wipe out all of humanity is a pretty big drawback.

>The only people trying to refine it are criminals. It's illegal not only to use the technology as it existed 400 years ago, but also to try to make it better.
Please stop posting if all you're going to do is spew headcanon, thank you.

It was only one flaw in the project, a pretty fucking big one admittedly, but only one.

The Federation is big on "equality of opportunity", that being everyone should have the opportunity to better themselves based on their own interests and choices, not based on external factors that they can't control. They're not perfect in that regard, but they strive to ensure that whenever possible. By allowing genetic augmentation beyond simply curing diseases, it completely goes against that principle because people would therefore be limited based on what their parents did or did not decide to do with them when they were children or even before they were born. It's illegal primarily because of the insane number of drawback, but it also goes against the Federation on a core philosophical level.

I wonder what ever happened to those kids

That relies on the flawed assumption that all people are created equal.

Also if take beta canon (because why not make it a real shit show) Spock had considerable work done so that a hybrid would even be possible and he is way smarter than the average Vulcan or Human. They didn't have a problem with him and Khan was for more recent history at that point

...

It was a symptom of the greater issue with genetic manipulation, which is that it's nigh-impossible to foresee all possible outcomes. Who knows what can happen, so don't take the chance until things have been experimented on safely.

>That relies on the flawed assumption that all people are created equal.
Your personal beliefs are irrelevant.

Obviously every individual isn't the same otherwise we'd be a race of identical clones or robots, but the Federation wants to ensure to the best of its ability that every person has the chance to pursue their interests to the best of their respective abilities, instead of "sorry honey but mommy and daddy didn't select the Quantum Max Deluxe Superman Package Mark 12 when you were a fetus, so you're stuck scrubbing plasma conduits for the rest of your life"

Then in the post-scarcity UFP that was entirely the fault and cruelty of the parents. Just because one child has idiot anti-vaxxer parents doesn't mean I should have to let my kid get polio.

Stop using anti-vaxxer analogies when it's been repeated over and over that medical uses are fine. The problem with Bashir wasn't that he was cured of his retardation (and even then it can be argued that Bashir would've turned out fine anyway and his parents just overreacted when he was a fucking 6 year old), the problem is that they augmented him over and above that.

How do we know your kid getting polio isn't part of some Cosmic Plan? Has your kid invented warp drive on his own, because we can't help him unless he has. Rules.

I'll stop using the anti-vaxxer comparison when it stops being comparable.

Vaccines are unnatural. Nature is fucking awful. If we lived in a natural state we would be scavengers and grazers doing a bit of hunting on the side, getting ill a lot, occasionally trodden on by big woolly fuckers, getting ill a lot and being hilariously racist against other extended family groups.

Genetic engineering is unnatural. It could also be used, and in the Star Trek universe has, to massively improve the quality of life for the masses.

Some doctors turned a retarded child into a genius. I'm not seeing the problems. And Bashir was a retard, at age 6 he couldn't tell the difference between a cat and a dog.

>I'll stop using the anti-vaxxer comparison when it stops being comparable.
It's not comparable in the slightest. Anti-vaxxers are conspiracy nuts who think curing disease will make kids retarded when it won't. Genetic manipulation has actual real legitimate and concrete problems. If anything arguing against that is more analogous to anti-vaxxers.

A closer analogy would be a drug like meth where there are accepted medical uses, but it's still heavily restricted because they don't want some asshole getting hopped up on it and going psychotic. Only in this case, the psychosis would be permanent so it's even worse.

>Some doctors turned a retarded child into a genius. I'm not seeing the problems.
Casting judgment based on result and not the act is the worst way to go about a judicial system. Bashir only turned out fine because he's a main character.

>It's not comparable in the slightest. Anti-vaxxers are conspiracy nuts who think curing disease will make kids retarded when it won't.

It's not comparable in the slightest. Anti-augments are conspiracy nuts who think attempting to better the species will make kids warlord when it won't.

It's pretty close to antivaxxers really.
>Docs augment some people, super soldiers. Normal folks dont understand why but it's bad.
>Docs augment some people, mostly spastics, normal folks don't understand why but it's bad.
>Docs augment sick kids, they stop being sick, normal folks don't understand the difference so its all in who they get their information from as to whether it's bad or good.
If they could get healthy sane supersoldiers they still wouldn't understand the difference.

Vaccines caused potential retard babies forever ago, normal people don't know why but that's bad. Now vaccines have improved (even though its arguable medical ethics have) normal people don't understand the difference so its good or bad depending on who they rely on to give them this information.

They do have accelerated aging!

You know there's this group of dudes you might get along with, they're big on perfection, kind of a collective really.

Hey, quick thought.

How would you guys represent augments in ST:A? My first thought was giving them bonus traits or talents in exchange for flaws, but there's no real drawback or insanity system yet. Any opinions?

You could represent it narratively. I presume we're talking about the Eurasian augments. So you could give them those bonus traits and then have them gradually turn on one another.

Or, if you're looking to have them as pcs or friendly npcs you could make them do a roll every few turns to see if they still consider the nominal leader of the group to be the strongest/smartest. If they fail it you're forced to fight them.

What's up with the added /trek/ thing in the title?

Khan's people never showed any disloyalty

Khan is also essentially the augment messiah, so you wouldn't really find augments turning against him. But if we're going for the "superior intellect breeds superior ambition" augments, then I think the best way to balance them out if to make them fractious and self interested. See the Nietzscheans (I almost spelt it right first time) in Andromeda.

I was thinking more like Bashir and his pals. Superior minds but kind of unstable. Eurasian augments may be showing up in my game but aren't really appropriate for play.

Well then I suppose you'd have to build your own supplementary traits/talents that are negative versions of the currently available ones.

That's the one.

Bar that one flaw they were pretty much demigods.

>when it won't.
Non-canon, come back with a better argument based on canon material.

>too bad they had to justify it with having a male personality possess her
Implying that the thought of meek, innocent actual Kes trapped in her body and simultaneously feeling disgusted and kind of... ...intrigued by all the new experiences she's been having on account of Tieran's actions. doesn't make it better.

I was thinking of that anyway, since overcoming personal shortcomings is a big part of every trek series. Maybe have them be anti-beliefs that give you determination when you overcome them.

Hey, peeps that have played New Horizons, how do you survive/thrive as Bajor? I want to try an Ironman run with them but every game I've played as other powers has Bajor getting curbstomped by Cardassia within the first 50 years. Any advice?

>Bajor
>not getting stomped
Don't be Bajor.

The Borg have done for cybernetics what the augments did for genetic improvements.

Unless humanity grows some fucking balls it will be condemned to an eternity of mediocrity.

Haven't played it.
What sort of ships does Bajor have? The usual triangles?

Or do they upgrade to the warship triangle like in the salvage yard in Unification?

>Anti-augments are conspiracy nuts who think attempting to better the species will make kids warlord when it won't.

As was pointed out, from the show we know:

1) Augmenting is a very dangerous procedure with high levels of failure,
2) Just a few episodes after learning Bashir is an augment, we have Bashir encountering some other augments who are mentally unstable, a fact which the show points out is the norm. This would be a good 300+ years after the Eugenics Wars, with 300+ years of advancement in science.

Star Trek isn't totally against genetic manipulation or cybernetics. Picard has an artificial heart, Geordi has his VISOR and then later artificial eyes, and no one seems to raise objections to things like growing new organs to replace damaged ones (i.e., the lady McCoy grows a new kidney for in Trek IV rather than letting her go through the to-him barbaric kidney dialysis procedure)

It's purely when you try and improve that the Federation raises objection, and all the evidence we've seen suggests that that concern is well-founded within the Star Trek universe.

>Unless humanity grows some fucking balls it will be condemned to an eternity of mediocrity.

"Mediocrity" here being defined as "being the plurality and most influential species species in the largest and most powerful stellar nation in the Galaxy, with our homeworld as the capital world, where poverty, sickness, and war have largely been eliminated, the human lifespan typically reaches into the 150s, and everything is just fundamentally better for everyone in any meaningful way, and none of this comes at the expense of the other races in the Federation, in fact they all get the same benefits"

I'll live a "mediocre" life like that any day.

I haven't been in the thread since last night, and haven't posted until now, but I'm going to leave this here:

>memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Genetic_engineering

On that note, in the TNG episode where Worf is switching timelines he ends up in one where the Bajorans were a major threat.

Presumably they beat down the Cardassians instead of the other way around.
I know it's never pictured in the show, but would this thing make sense for their warships?

The usual Triangles. They get a special starting Impulse engine design, solar sails, that's cheaper than the standard starting impulse drive. Other than that they're a standard start as a theocratic republic.

>Yes, I am having trouble understanding because I consider the development of surgery from 400 years ago to now exactly equal to events resulting in a series of conflicts causing thirty million deaths and nearly plunging the planet into a new Dark Age.
I just feel sorry for you.

And I feel sorry for you.

In the last season of DS9 we get a look at new, Bajor built ships. They sort of look like the Daedalus from Stargate. Here's a full gallery of all the designs we see.
ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/bajorans1.htm

Alright, here's what ya do. Early tech focus on weapons and industry. First unity focus on prosperity because you're gonna need the minerals and energy, lickety split. You can explore your immediate surroundings with 2 science ships, but you're gonna want to build a third to seek out and make contact with the Trill, Betazoids and Catians. They're immediately up, right and down from Bajor so you should have too much problem finding them. You already have similar ethics to them so get an NAP with each of them and drop some spare resources into them to get them in side. You can coalition-up with the 3 in short order. The Cardies will be much less likely to invade in the short term but you'll need to get good with the Feddies to stand a chance by a century in.

All of which are redresses or previously used models. Including the Karemma ship redressed for Bajoran impulse ship.

I figure in a timeline where the Bajorans didn't get crushed they'd have something a bit sturdier. And, you know, more warp capable.

If we're talking about the scenario as put forward in the TNG episode they'd likely look much the same, as the Bajorans are said to have risen up against the Cardassians successfully.

But if we're talking about an independant, unconquered Bajor then the ships would likely look unrecogniseable. The triangle ships we see in DS9 are repurposed freighters bought and stolen from other races. So Bajoran designed warp vessels would look entirely different, especially seeing as their introduction to interstellar travel came with the solar sail and not the warp drive.

>especially seeing as their introduction to interstellar travel came with the solar sail and not the warp drive
Oh hi.

Oddly, it would fit that the Baku are Bajorans that left Bajor because they thought this whole "organised society" shtick was too new fashioned for them. Barring the physical differences, of course. Bt honestly I put that down to pure laziness on the production team's side.

>But honestly I put that down to pure laziness on the production team's side.

How long can Star Trek keep laying that card?

ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/human-aliens.htm

Forever user. Because we're much more likely to empathise with aliens we might want to fuck.

Real talk: Humans in makeup is going to make for a better experience than CGI monstrosities that the living actors can't react to. Puppets were fun in Farscape, but most mainstream audiences see them as cheap gimmicks or relics of the past.

Puppets are also extremely expensive.

>See: The Eugenics Wars
So, "muh Khan". If the UFP were as consistent in their obsession with 300-year-old bogeymen, they never would've even gotten back into space.

It's obviously not just "muh Khan" when the same shit keeps happening in the late 24th century.

>"b-b-but they haven't improved!"
By your own headcanon only.

*Romulan theme plays*

Please point me to which of the 24th century augments were warlords. Please point me to any post-Eurasian Augments that went and became conquerors of worlds.

>I haven't seen any cases of this disease, therefore we don't need to vaccinate against it
Who's the anti-vaxer again?

The whole point of their anti-augment policies is so that augments with ambition, aggressiveness and sociopathic tendencies, like for example Jack, don't become warlords.

>maybe we should research this field fully to discover what is and isn't safe to do
>nah this 300 year old history book really spooked me, just make it all illegal
still you, kiddo

Jack can barely interact with people. I don't see him raising any flags over burned cities anytime soon.
I just don't think that a few illegal hackjobs should create a total moratorium on the entire field. I'm not even against banning certain augmentations which can't be controlled/predicted, but surely quality of life enhancements shouldn't be off the table.

New trailer for Discovery. It's... well it's certainly a video.
youtube.com/watch?v=U2g9sfhtBRo

>MY HEAD CANON IS RIGHT WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN
Still waiting for an actual argument.