Level 20 wizard hits for 20d6 across the battlefield

a barbarian with great axe at level 20 will have 24 STR and infinite rages

damage would be 1d12 + 11, two attacks
this is lower than 20d6, but it doesnt run out, and with a +13 to hit, an AC23 creature would be hit 50% of the time, unlike a DC19 DEX save, which can be passed by most monsters

the main value of a barbarian is that rage gives advantage to all strength checks, and at level 20 you can do so infinitely
and of course durability, 1d12 HD, unarmored defense, and rages granting resistance,can make him a tougher nut to crack, and works even if caught by surprise, since these are resources that are returned on a short rest, and do not have a time limit on use

>chooses to play a class that sucks
>complains about it
Just accept that you're playing a game about spellcasters.

Next time you feel the urge to make one of these threads, do 20 pushups instead.

>1d12+11, two attacks

....wut?

What the hell are you even playing? Barbarian is full BAB, at level 20 they damned well better have more than 2 attacks. And two handing a weapon adds 1.5x str modifier, which isn't counting power attack.

Roll your damage.

If you're fighting creatures with lower HD then your level, your damage is the number of foes you kill instead.

>he doesn't know blasting spells are weaker than just shooting something with a bow.
>he actually wastes his 9th levels on fucking blasting spells
>also implying that most things your fighting at 20d6 levels aren't fucking immune/heavily resistant to every damage type.

Also
Also 20d6 damage is only an average of 70, at those levels that's a fucking scratch even when you're talking about mook tier enemies.

You're talking 3.PF, he's talking 5e.

>Barbarian
>Two attacks

5e was a mistake.

There's a subclass that gets three but is useless for the rest of the day.

No harm in doing both

Gods, OP is right.

How do we fix this?

Rename casters fot godlings (upgrade class title to god later) as other guy said so martials will understand their position better and be happier with newfound immersion

No he isn't. There's a lot if balance issues with Wizard, but if he's beating your barb in damage your barb is just shitty.

>only 9th level spells can achieve 20d6

I suggest you read the spellbook, pal.

...

How the fuck do we go from getting six attacks to two attacks?

For that matter, why even play a martial at all when Bards get access to double attacks, expertise, and a full spell list in 5e?

yes but its fun and I've learned something from them. Shut up.

Now I'm of to start an argument about whether batman could beat Goku.

He couldn't 'cause he's a weak nub

Either accept D&D has some serious golden calf baggage (such as a do-anything wizard archetype it basically self-enforced) or don't play it.

So? OP would be able to do 100 push-ups by now.

...

Give them more to do in combat beyond move close and hit thing, or potentially even giving them more stuff to do in general.

Why does everyone suggest that the wizards should be nerfed? Martials should be raised to meet the rest of the classes. Higher damage output is not always the answer. The strength to leap huge distances or crack the earth to trip up enemies, the ability to catch most attacks that would kill a guy on the chest and brush it off, or no-selling spells by busting through their effects with your MANLY WILLPOWER.

>dispel magic
>see invisibility
>true seeing
You just got rekt, faggot.
But I agree, barbarians are shit for preventing damage against flying opponents.

>Why does everyone suggest that the wizards should be nerfed?
Because their spells ruin campaigns.
>The strength to leap huge distances or crack the earth to trip up enemies, the ability to catch most attacks that would kill a guy on the chest and brush it off, or no-selling spells by busting through their effects with your MANLY WILLPOWER.
No one likes your retarded weeb shit.

>>level 20 barbarian hits for 2d6 with his axe
Guys this is a bait thread, literally everything in that sentence is wrong, intentionally so.

...

Most of that is retarded, true. But the going through spells with willppwer or sheer bloody-mindedness isn't a terrible idea. I mean heck, making spells like Wall of force moveable (5ft a round, like Immovable Rods) or fallible (Letting reactions to spells being cast happen during the casting instead of after) would be pretty cool.

>enemy has to waste their time casting their own magic to get past mine instead of skipping to the part where they fling actually dangerous spells

Meanwhile, a Barbarian is up shit creek against either of them.

This. Give fighters more options.
I was in a home brew where the Monks had access to fighting styles that mimicked weapons with added bonuses.
Not only that but Monks were good at grappling so I can make enemies easier targets (but my character mostly enjoyed throwing people). My favorite mid-late game fighting stance was Flying Foot, mimicked pole-arm but could destroy shields if it did Max damage.

Another thing the DM did was let rogues sneak around a battle and even kite enemies. Fighters can serve as support-dps or support-tank, just allow variety.

>Why does everyone suggest that the wizards should be nerfed?

Have you seen what a Wizard in 3.5 is capable of? Low-levels it's trivial to get a toolbox of solutions that render most skills and a wide variety of enemies completely irrelevant. Higher levels a Wizard is basically impossible to challenge or threaten in any meaningful way aside from a more powerful wizard.

Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a character, any character in fiction, capable of doing all the sorts of things a level 20 Wizard can have on his spell list?

Merlin? A D&D Wizard shits on him without even having a fancy bloodline. Circe? Only ever really did Polymorph and that's small potatoes. Zeus? Sure, he can shapeshift and throw lightning, but what caster can't do that by mid-levels? Capital G God? Sure, he made the earth and a bunch of plants and animals, but don't pretend for a minute that a Wizard couldn't put on a perfect re-enactment of the Bible inside of a demi-plane with the people born there being none the wiser.

The reason everyone suggests that Wizards be nerfed is because 'does literally everything ever' should not be a class.

5e has no full-round stuff any more. While you get less attacks every attack is as accurate, plus you can move and interact with things in other ways even between your first and second weapon attack with no compromise.

>Zeus? Sure, he can shapeshift and throw lightning
The funny thing is Zeus doen't use magic to throw lightning. Lightning bolts are magical weapons (as they are in Hinduism and Norse mythology and probably some other myths) forged by cyclops to fight titans. Zeus just casts them down. His spell repertoir boils down to shapeshifting, so Zeus is probably a poorly optimized druid with high CHA and CON.

>weeb shit.
>The strength to leap huge distances
>what is superman

>crack the earth to trip up enemies
>Breaking things is an asian only thing
>Only a weeb would think that making rough terrain would be a good idea

>catch most attacks that would kill a guy on the chest and brush it off, or no-selling spells by busting through their effects with your MANLY WILLPOWER.
>What is a monster heel in wrestling

I'll admit my ideas are retarded, but all of these ideas have a basis in western ideas.

Fuck me, anything that isn't hit thing with stick is fucking weebish these days. Spears are weeb, swords are weeb, sharp things are weeb, punching is weeb, armour is weeb, no armour is weeb, supernatural abilities are weeb, not supernatural abilities are weeb, everything is weeb. I'm pretty sure breathing is weeb somehow too.

The problem is that even though superhuman abilities have been a part of western mythology and folklore for thousands of years, anyone who shows these abilities now is for some reason weeb.

Nevermind the fact that Hercules could hold up the fucking sky or that King David and Beowulf used giant swords, or that Cuchulain used rune magic and King Arthur's brother Sir Kay could grow 20 feet tall and shoot fire from his hands, NO, no the fact that some spiky haired kid did it in japanese media means no one else can do it ever again without it being weeb.

Fucking moron.

Okay, wizard was a bad example. Instead, look at something tier 2-3 instead.

>King David and Beowulf used giant swords
Really? That sounds awesome.

King David was on the run from King Saul [back before he was King] and came across a group of priests. He asked them if they had any weapons he could spare and they replied all they had was the sword of Goliath the Philistine whom David had slain.

So for that entire chunk of the Bible David was presumably walking around like Guts, using a sword meant for a man almost twice his height.

Clarification, I mean before David was King. And on the top of giant weapons, Gilgames and Enkidu both used like freaking 60 lb daggers. Big weapons are an anime cliche that predates anime by thousands of years. Which is why its so funny to see people spaz out over it.

Well the first step is to enforce spell component rules. The second is to remember that by RAW, you can get an item that gives permanent True Strike for like 4k gold.

While it's sounds cool it raises question why people kept and preserved the sword nobody could use and on top of that why priests did that. It sounds like ancient tradition of sacrificing weapons of slain enemies to war gods which existed in Europe and Middle East.

The sword Goliath used was a one-handed sword used with a shield, so it wasn't actually a buster sword despite my meming. Goliath, assuming we take the biblical account at face value, was 9 feet tall, so his sword even scaled up wouldn't have been outside human use.

And the reason the priests kept it is because it was the sword of fucking Goliath. Dude was huge.

Can you? I thought that 3.5 had a specific exception for spells that granted bonuses like that.

Also, enforcing component rules doesn't fix the core problem; casters taking the spotlight. Now they'll just be whining that they need to go on a detour to grab some bat shit.

The barbarian readied an action to throw an axe to top you, and bad luck, he has Quick Draw, Brutal Throw, and Frenzied Berserker levels so good luck passing that concentration check. Or he's a fighter and has the feat slots to add in Power Throw.

>that's a fucking scratch
Good thing he's doing it 4 times minimum then, and doesn't need spell components, and can do it literally all day.

Cuchulain also had the warp spasm - where he could transform into a horrific fleshbeast and tear things up with constructs made out of his muscles.

This really. Not just a broader range of combat stuff, but also general utility stuff, so it's not just spellcasters doing every non-combat task while the martials stand around waiting to hit stuff.

Play 4e.

>Can you?
Yes

I swear there was some caveat about stuff like true strike, though.

If there is I've never seen it in a rulebook. As is, you can get a ring of True Strike that gives +20 to all attack rolls and ignores all is chance, for a mere 8k. For 16 it can even be slotlesss like an Ioun sstone.

Goliath's sword would have been a valuable trophy.
"See this sword? It was wielded by a guy who was 9 feet tall and a real badass. He defied our God. Now he's fukken dead."
Iirc, Beowulf picks up a Giant's Sword and uses it to kill Grendel's Mother.

Tier 3 is where I'd say things start to get reasonable, but that's the point where spellcasters start to have actual limits. It's either partial casters like the bard that don't go to as insane levels with their abilities, or variant casters that are limited to a single school of magic like the Beguiler.

That's what people mean by saying you have to nerf Wizards. Magic needs to be limited in some way to even put it on the level where buffing martials is an option. Once it's there, then you can give them the neat tricks like what you see in Tome of Battle to give them some actual options, and balance the game around the idea that everyone in the group will have something to contribute to the group without being overshadowed.

RAW seems kind of controversial on this because technically true strike doesn't have a duration in rounds it lasts until your next attack before the end of your next round, but I don't really want to argue it just pointing that out.

Spell component pouch

But also, RAW says tower shields provide total cover which lets you make hide checks, which in essence makes you invisible as long as you can pass the hide checks.

>"See this sword? It was wielded by a guy who was 9 feet tall and a real badass. He defied our God. Now he's fukken dead."
I want a game when you can do that to win favor from the gods.
"Let's go by the list: 1 point for something as mundane as a sword or spear, +5 points for weapon which killed 100 or more men, +3 points because it's huge or ugly, 9 points overall multiplied by 2 because your enemy was a badass, 2 for supernatural abilities or traits in our case height and streight, 3 for him being a heathen and 3 for insults against our God. That's whooping 90 points, David! YHWH is pleased by your deeds. Do you want to check all the nice things you can buy with these?"

>Magic needs to be limited in some way to even put it on the level where buffing martials is an option

>mfw I already fixed the caster vs martial problem by making Wizards a healing/support class and let the fighters do fighting the best
>mfw the strongest wizards who use trickery and can maybe cast a single offense spell, curse, or summon once per adventure

The funny thing here is that the Barbarian will most like out damage the wizard in this example, because of white damage that was left out.

The likely damage math goes as follows

Wizard will do (20d6)x1.5 save for half in a cone using two meta magic feat on say a cone of cold to get that out come. One spell for increasing the max level scaling because to 20 and one for the x1.5 rolled damage. So about 90 damage but there is a saving throw that could cut that in half.

Barbarian at level 20 should have about a +44 on the charge and should of picked up some thing like say ponce with his feats. Lets say he power attacks for a very safe trade of 8 to hit for a extra 24 damage. His first attack will hit a AC of 38 on a 2 and his follow ups on a 7/13/18/20. He will be hitting for 2d6+53 and will hit about 3 times. So about 180 damage with nothing funny being done. That number could easily be higher based on player reasons alone and can be made MUCH higher via buff spell that give more to hit math to be traded via power attack into damage.

It is very hard for casters to deal more damage then a barbarian with direct damage spells. That is the realm of builds made for that reason and that reason alone. When casters do out damage a well built melee character it is via self buffs to their combat math and then the caster goes into melee.

Conan fought against the odds to be a badass. Follow his lead and stop begging for power, fight for it. Bitch.

>he's talking 5e
So he is talking shit and should be ignored.

I do not think that tier 2 classes are really a issue, it is very much issue with tier 1. Even then it is the top half it most. Wizard, Cleric,Druid, Archivist, and Artificer are simplely put just to damn good. Sorcerer are also tier 1. On paper they are just a touch less powerful the wizard, however in truth a wizard player to is actively using the power of his spell book is far more powerful most of the time then a well made and well played Sorcerer.

Just banning those classes works wonders for balance.

What kind of gish build would I need to play to be like Cu Challain?

>Dumb pathfaggot thinks his shitty game is even relevant in current day and age

Just going to point out the follow...

People think that 5e is more common based on two things, sales and what people are playing on R20. The issue with the first is that pathfinder has been out for a long time and has a srd details to the point that buying a pathfinder book is a optional thing to do. Second Roll20 is mostly for people who can not get into a group or who want some thing on the side. Long running group most keep with a few systems and only changes think if they feel like it.

Pathfinder is still likely more played then 5e and will only lose that title when many of the players move to Starfinder.

So that will happen soon, maybe is a few months.

Not sure which tier system you're using, since Tier 2 is basically full of spontaneous casters like the Sorcerer that are like a Wizard or the other full tier 1 casters, but slightly weaker due to having less spells known.

Still, Tier 3 is certainly the point to balance around, though I'd argue 3.5 has a lot of baggage surrounding it to try and do so.

Infinite rages or infinite anything is pointless, since the casters will need a rest anyway and will force the rest of the party to rest with them.
Same about all those class feats for monks.
In theory it's all nice and well, but in practice a caster will run circles around you.
Casters are broken in D&D, no matter how you put it.

The old wizards of the coast optimization broad tier system, which now that I think about it may be rather dated. It was not based around what class feature but rather a a lengthly process to find if a class could be a 'one man adventuring party". It was a white box run of two on CR for level combats( not ECL which would be at character level minus 3), one combat at one above CR, one combat at two above CR, and one environmental issue to over come. The Test was done at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17.

Side note the old optimization community makes /TG look rather lazy.

That's a full attack action you dunce. Unless you happen to start combat within 5 feet of your enemy, you don't get that.

I like it when prople go on about high level wizards being a onee-man army, and totally forgetting, that a high level fighter is an actual army.

>onee-man
That's something new

I might have an option

>what is pounce

>If Wizards have access to Sleep spells, give the martial an ability that allows them to knock out opponents who are grappled if they fail an Endurance check.

>If the Wizard has access to fireball, give the martials an ability that allows them to perform a spin attack and have it not only hit every enemy within range, but also make it so that it counts as a single attack.

>If mages can warp to an area as a free/move action, give martials the ability to move before and after each attack, and don't make it so they can only perform a single attack if they moved more than 5 ft.

So what you're saying is play 4e

It's amazing how so many things are answered by the two simple words of "play 4e"

>Yfw you rolled Barb when you meant to roll Bard.
>Yfw Barb is too tanky to ever actually die.
>Yfw you have no face because the monster crit-tore it off and you killed it anyways

Fucking Barbarians

>not warning the party they are in grave danger if they rest here
a dungeon is normally a long gauntlet full of danger that should rightfully be difficult to rest in

Yes you do if you play a good edition

Don't play dnd then

>The God Shop: You'll be so overpowered, infidels will cry out "Holy shit!" guaranteed, our you get a free resurrection on us.

>"Whenever the heretics try and stop me, I know I can rely on my God Shop^TM flail of Smite Faggotry. Thanks Big G!"

-Gregory the Rightous, long time customer.

>single fighter/barbarian/martial class isn't seen as a major threat
>any wizard thats 8th level capable or above is seen as a regional power in EVERY edition

Wizards are campaign level threats on their own because that's how they are written. Martials are only the same when magically supported or backing a vast army of other martials who follow them unless they are that assassin who shanks a sleeping wizard.

Melee are OK, the problem is casters.

>3.5e
>This entire thread
>choosing 3.5e when death is a viable option

That's why you get the martials to stand guard for you :^)

Play 4e where the Barbarian can actually to staggering burst damage, buff allies by inspiring them to greatness and call on the spirits of his ancestors to bring phantom barbarians back from the afterlife to fight by his side for a time?

Thaneborn barbarians are very fun.

It was fun
but normies are too dumb to play it and gronards hate it

>it is 2017
>he still plays D&D and not anima for high fantasy and gurps for low fantasy

I dunno, maybe it wasn''t in both 3.0 and 3.5 but True Strike is specifically mentioned as an example where the DM should do a check of "does this look insane compared to other established magic items" in the crafting section of the DMG, from what I remember?

>dm mkes scripted as fuck game where out of combat rules don't matter
>uses 5e instead of 4e
It was the most horrid shit I ever played, at least if he used 4e the ombat migh have been OK.

Except he isn't and he is spending resources. If you think fucking blasting us a problem in D&D you shouldn't fucking talk about game balance.

Please, kys

Don't ask others to do stuff you should do yourself.

remember that most humans are one, maybe two hitpoints, and follow the 2e rules. Fighter gets to keep killing one hit dice creatures until he misses. When won't be for, like, 19 swings.

Seriously guys, casters didn't break so hard until 3e. Read the old things and the solutions are obvious.