2017

>2017
>DnD whatever edition is out
>People complaining about DnD
>People won't play ANYTHING else though

Why are fa/tg/uys so retarded? Stop playing DnD and play anything else, you shits. Other games were made for a reason.

I actually play gurps, most people that dog on d&d play other games

Right, spellcasters are at least still weak to other spellcasters. I guess that's something.

While I have lots of fun with D&D, I have to agree, I see what people might dislike in it.

So yeah if you don't like D&D no one cares, instead go play something else and not complain about every little detail.

>2017
>not only using instantaneous spells that can't be dispelled

You aren't thinking like a wizard

Those can be countered. Of course, you can counter their counter.

That's fucking level 8 and 9 spells though.

>2017
>not having a million contingency spells
Still not thinking like a wizard.

Have greater dispell magic set to dispel all dispels

I can win with a level 7 spell.

Or an unholy arrow and a scroll of command undead

Because martial supremacy still exists
>Be druid
>Fighting obvious boss battle
>Decide I want to swing my big caster dick around, polymorph the boss
>Toss the now small fucker down a cliff, not our problem anymore
>DM is sad because his planned boss encounter was beaten by a single failed save

Either you have a boss with high saves/rerolls

Or you just don't have bosses and make puzzles

We are talking about latest versions, where, thankfully, those don't exist in that form.

roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Contingency#h-Contingency

You can't contingency counterspell, since the contingency spell has to target you, and counterspell has to target an enemy.

You could Contingency another polymorph to "when my next polymorph ends" though, I guess. Which means you could stack up like 20 layers of it.

Yes, and..?

>Legendary Resistance
>If a creature fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

Fucking THIS.

>Make a character who's good at climbing and parkour
Whatever, the wizard can fly

>Make a character who's good at stealth
The wizard can turn invisible, and also shapeshift into people, and also teleport if he gets caught. Let him do it.

>Make a character who's good at hunting and survival.
"Oh, the wizard knows goodberry and can keep us fed for like a week with it."

>Make a character who's good with charm and persuasion.
"Yeah, but the wizard has Enchanting spells, which are basically mind control..."

>Make a character who's good with lockpicking and traps.
"You know the Knock spell instantly opens all non-magical locks, right? And he can dispel the magic ones. And he can also summon things to scout ahead and activate any of the traps. That's if he doesn't use Passwall or teleportation to get us past the doors anyway."

But hey, I guess it's OK because Fighter-Mc-Can't-Do-Anything-Else can at least hit things harder than a wizard can.

Does 5e have psions?

I really like psions.

Sad about the contingency thing though.

This ladies and gentlemen,

Is why we have the tome of battle.

They are in UA (basically playtest) right now, should be in the next big expansion I think. They are pretty cool.

>Whatever, the wizard can fly
Wasting precious resources when the climber can just go up and drop down a rope.
>The wizard can turn invisible, and also shapeshift into people, and also teleport if he gets caught. Let him do it.
Spends precious resources to catch up with the specialist. Don't be a retard - either don't cast those spells or cast them on the specialist to GUARANTEE his success.
>"Oh, the wizard knows goodberry and can keep us fed for like a week with it."
"Wish I had one more spell slot right now, but since none of you fuckers took survival, I had to keep casting Goodberry".
>"Yeah, but the wizard has Enchanting spells, which are basically mind control..."
Yeah, why try to do things like a reasonable person, let's go straight to the nuclear option, fail miserably because of an unlucky save or something then die in a MAD.
>"You know the Knock spell instantly opens all non-magical locks, right? And he can dispel the magic ones. And he can also summon things to scout ahead and activate any of the traps.
Alert all enemies in the dungeon of your presence and have less slots to deal with them now that their mass attack is incoming. Fucking genius, but aren't wizards supposed to be high INT?

>The problem with Martials is that they can't do anything good outside of COMBAT and lack alot of agency outside of direct COMBAT
>Yeah, but they got Tome of BATTLE.
>Tome of *BATTLE*
>B A T T L E

It gives _some_ out of combat utility. Not as much as full casters, but a lot more solid than core.

Except for the rope one (which is contingent on having something something to tie a rope around), and the berry one (at least the whole party isn't facing starvation penalties) those are all risks non-magical characters have to face as well, while having less tools at their disposal and lower chances for success. Nice strawmen, but try again.

That's not even really a solution
Legendary Resistance is just disguised railroading. Ironically enough it exists precisely because developers knew that casters can end encounters with a single spell.

>It's totally fine that the class who can do everything can only do it based on having way more spell slots than they'll ever need. Totally fair and balanced against the classes who can do basically nothing but can do basically nothing as much as they want.

One thing that jumps to mind is there is a school which has attacks that bypass DR and hardness.

It's affectionately known as the dungeon redecoration tool.

You can get some out of combat utility, and with a bit of hombrewing they can keep up with wizards.

Again, those are COMBAT USES.

How blatant do I need to spell it out?

The problem between Martials and Casters is that OUT OF COMBAT, Martials are only good at hitting stuff, and maybe some athletics... meanwhile casters have spells for that and dozens of other ways to warp reality and essentially say "fuck the rules".

No amount of making martials better at COMBAT will fix the fact that casters have way more choices, agency, and roleplaying options OUTSIDE OF COMBAT.

I'm 90% sure their is one that lets you fly.

But in your example you point out knock. I don't have to get good at lockpicking, doors don't apply to me.

I can koolad man wherever I need to go.

And that's just one

but if they stop bitching about casters v. martials, then what would they bitch about instead?

you must remember that some people who play these games don't actually know how to communicate with people except through complaining

4e is the only reasonable version of DnD and even it is shit. Stop playing shitty games.

Sure is MtG in here

It's probably best not to make any arguments using simulacrum though, since it's one of the most poorly defined spells. At least it's officially limited to one, and no Wish abusing allowed, in AL.

This really isn't much of a problem in 5e. I'm not talking about theory, I'm talking about the actual 5e games I've played and run.

There are some spells that duplicate some skills. They cost a spell-cast slot and a memorization slot, and often (especially in the case of social effects) aren't as good as the skill. Knock is loud, costs a slot, and doesn't help with traps.

Sure, the wizard can fly for ten minutes if he doesn't take haste today. If he does, he can't be stealthy at the same time (invisibility and fly are both concentration) and he's spending a slot he probably wanted to save for a fireball. The rogue can make climb and stealth checks all day at no cost, and can sneak attack every round if they're clever.

You guys act like spellcasters know every spell in the book and have infinite spell slots. What actually happens in a smart party is that the caster is the last resort, a limited resource. The question, when meeting each challenge, is "how do we solve this without burning half our daily shit?" And the answer is skill checks. That's what actually happens when you play.

You can theorycraft all day about how, if you had anyone to play with, the game would suck. In practice, it works fine.

Yes and if you don't want your wizards having infinite spells remember - spell transcription needs rare inks and such, so instead of allowing them to buy it, make them find it (As in some games such things might be incredibly rare)

You're missing the point again.
There is no challenge that the rogue can complete that the wizard cannot also complete, about 80% of which he can do better.
>Sure, the wizard can fly for ten minutes if he doesn't take haste today
Congrats he's just eliminated basically any acrobatics of athletics-based challenge
>invisibility
Why do you even have a rogue at this point, because you have a choice between hiding or literally being invisible? Between picking a lock or just magically opening it. Yes, it's loud, but it works better than lock picking almost every time. Traps are irrelevant when you have summon spells. And when you get teleport spells, even that's obsolete.
>Martials and caster dichotomy isn't a problem
>So nerf casters
Pic related
This was basically what they tried to do with rituals in 4e and almost everyone hated them.

Well said.

>Whatever, the wizard can fly
That's great. Really. It is. But if there's any danger, it's better to cast it on someone with better AC, more HP, and who doesn't risk losing the spell when they take damage.
>The wizard can turn invisible, and also shapeshift into people, and also teleport if he gets caught.
Still have to roll stealth, still have to roll deception, and so much more likely to get caught because of it. Better off letting the shadow monk do this.
>the wizard knows goodberry
Goodberry is not a wizard spell. Wizards cannot make food. Goodberry is also only food. You need create water as well.
> the wizard has Enchanting spells, which are basically mind control
Charm Person? Still have to persuade them, but it's much easier, and they'll know what you did later. Suggestion and Dominate Person only works on a single, lone person. Mass Suggestion will only work out if the entire group fails their save. They're also all obvious spells, so you'll still piss people off for enchanting them, unless you're actually an Enchanter and they fail their save. Using dominate person to get your way is as subtle as turning your enemy into a newt, and as likely to earn you friends.
>Intentionally activating the deadfalls, alarms, and sealed room traps while alerting everyone around that he's breaking into a place.
It's like you've never heard of stealth.
>Relying on a 7th level spell to get to a place you've never seen when it can be blocked by a 6th level ritual or just fail on its own.
Except if you've climbed up, you should at least be able to hold a rope, wizards can't actually create food in any event, and "pissing off everyone within hundreds of feet while expending limited resources without any benefit" is not actually a risk that everyone faces. Nice strawman though.
>having way more spell slots than they'll ever need
1? 1 is more than they'll ever need? Because 1 is all you get for a long time for 6th through 9th level spells.

Those people did start playing 5e and are now continuing the argument in that system because 5e is really 3.5e lite with some 4e systems weaved in with different names so people don't sperg about them being present.

The problem is that Wizards have a very limited selection of spells to cast and take. Sure, at higher levels Wizards can use some of their older slots on fly or invisible or whatever, but by that point the Rogue has arbitrarily high skills that they can't fail in the same points and can do all those things while doing other shit, too. And they can have spells, too, if they want!

The Wizard being able to cast a spell and remove a challenge isn't really that much of a problem, because any challenge that can be easily taken care of with a Fly spell is probably a dc 12 at best, or, hell, just buy a Rope of Climbing, it costs 500gp tops and has the same effect without wasting a spell slot or a party member on the problem.

>about 80% of which he can do better.
This is the point. The point being: You're wrong. There's a few challenges that the rogue can complete that the wizard can't because of different attribute focuses and access to expertise, and of the ones they can both try, the rogue is better 99% of the time. There's also some things the wizard can do that the rogue cannot, and this is suddenly where the house of cards collapses? It's fucking fine.

Why do people always bring up Wizards in 5e caster supremacy threads? They're probably the worst of the full-caster classes with the sole exception of a large spell list which Bard can just steal the good bits of.

>arbitrarily high
>+9 instead of +5
Yeah, that 20% is absolutely absurd. I have no idea how skills being this powerful got through QA.

No, my point is that there are virtually no challenges that the rogue can complete that the wizard can't, but there are a vast number that the wizard can, but the rogue can't.
The rogue is the image of the utility martial, but they're not even close to the power of a utility caster.

Wizards probably have more "good bits" in their spell list alone than bards can ever steal, without even wondering if the bard would like some cleric, druid, or paladin spells instead.

>arbitrarily high
>+9 instead of +5
A level 11 rogue likely has a minimum stealth of 23. A level 11 bard, with expertise, has a minimum stealth that's likely 12 (or lower) and a level 11 wizard, still proficient, is likely to have a minimum stealth of 7. 23 is enough stealth to arbitrarily sneak past a lot of shit. Some people like the reliability you can get from a rogue, or pass without trace, but can't get from a wizard or invisibility.

>my point is that there are virtually no challenges that the rogue can complete that the wizard can't, but there are a vast number that the wizard can, but the rogue can't.
And my point is that you're just making up bullshit. Your assertion is a bald falsehood. At level 20, a wizard can prepare 25 spells, cast ~22 spells per day, some great portion of those prepared and slots spent or reserved are going to be combat spells. Counting rituals, assuming the rogue doesn't have ritual caster, there's probably a dozen difficulties the wizard is uniquely able to handle, or less. At level 20.

Meanwhile, the rogue can hide from a dog of the time and the wizard can't, to give an example of the kind of mundane task the wizard can't handle. There's no vast gulf if you actually play the game.

Name a challenge that a rogue can do that the wizard is better at.

Invisibility? For a minute or two, and before you turn invisible you have to make a very obvious and loud spell incantation.

flight to get over obstacles? Can't do that at the same time, and if you get hit you've got a good chance of falling.

Opening a door? You can open up to 4 a day, instead of doing something else that you're better at, and you have to make - again - A loud incantation that reveals your presence. It's only useful against magical doors with arbitrarily difficult DC's.

This breaks down even faster if you add in magical items. Utility magical items are cheap and they replace the Wizard even faster than your theoretical super-wizard - A single Marvelous Pigments makes a rogue into a goddamned monster.

Plenty of /pol/ garbage here

What you forget is that the wizard can also make other people succeed at those challenges. He can just cast fly/invisbility/whatever on someone else and suddenly you don't have to depend on the rogue for everything, because at least now someone else can tag along. Which is way better than having to listen for half an hour to some other dude jacking off about how good he is with skills woopdefuckingdoo

>I'm 90% sure their is one that lets you fly.
There is not.
There's one that lets you levitate, and there is one that lets you glide a little above the surface. While both have theoretical uses, they are nothing compared to fly, which was gotten half the campaign ago. (seriously, level 3 fly vs level 6-8 maneuvers)

I think there are few players who understand the glory of being a taxi, and also my point is that spells like invisibility don't work that way. Often, invisibility just enables stealth. It's not a replacement.

>It's wizard that, wizard this again
>While the druid laughs in bird form or dumps a bunch of spells somewhere
I love this. People always forget that other casters than wizards exist, and it doesn't have to be druids. You never have to play a "martial" ever. Want skills and spells? Bard. Want more punching and spells? Paladin
And so on.
Martials are the dunces of 3.5 and 5e because they restrict themselves to just one type of subsystem while other classes can have everything

>That's fucking level 8 and 9 spells though.
You don't get it.

To tg, ALL casters are assumed to have every spell at all times regardless of level. If you don't allow this, they will move the goalposts and strawman at an epic level.

>the glory of being a taxi
But that's where casters excel, not just wizards. Casters always work multiplicatively - they increase the efficency of the group to ridiciolous levels.
Sure, in 3.PF they can also become a party unto themselves if they so wish, but they could just as well put the whole group on steroids and smash encounters that way and that's also the case in 5e
Martials just don't have access to game changing buffs and debuffs

>The problem is that Wizards have a very limited selection of spells to cast and take.

At level 20, they have 44 spells to choose from.

Forty-fucking-four.

And any ritual they got, they don't even have to prepare beforehand. By the time your fighter takes off his armor to swim across a lake with his athletics, they have performed a water walk ritual on the entire party, without using a single slot.

>donning/removing armor
Please don't remind that these rules exist

Nope, WOTC team have confirmed that true polymorph is permanent once complete, no dispelling it

Wasn't it exactly the other way around? twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/723569059640401921

>Wasn't it exactly the other way around?
Yes. It was exactly the opposite.

How about limiting the wizards to one magical school? Only old elves should know more than two.

Also, isn't one of the options for true polymorph a dragon? And since dragons can shape change back to human at will after a successful True Polymorph spell, I'm not seeing much reason in not taking that path.

Hence my theory that all low level wizards should be considered only a larval form of dragon.

>By the time your fighter takes off his armor to swim across a lake with his athletics, they have performed a water walk ritual on the entire party, without using a single slot.
It only takes 5 minutes to doff heavy armor, 2.5 if you have help. It takes +10 minutes to cast a ritual. Checkmate, wizards.

So you agree that caster supremacy is an even bigger problem than most people say.

>Yes, and...?

Nobody reaches that level.

well, being invisible won't stop something with blindsight or truesight, there are multiple different spells and abilities which no sell it, most predatory animals have keen senses meaning they can still smell and hear you even without blindsight, and all you need is a cloud of ash, dust or literally any other such powder to expose an invisible wizard, plus while a wizard is sneaking and invisible he must by necessity separate himself from the rest of his party who aren't invisible if he wants to scout ahead and move through a path, and he's the squishiest class in the game so if he is ever found, he dies immediately.

a flying wizard is almost as obvious as a dragon, and while he can certainly bypass many athletics or acrobatics based challenges flight is not going to stop him from eating a dozen flying scythe blades to the face in an intricate death machine, nor will it help him swim or move a rock.

a sufficiently powerful wizard can do great things, but it is incapable of doing them consistently or doing them on demand. a rogue or a fighter can perform their skills on demand but a wizard can't.

a wizard can cast invisibility if he prepared one of his small number of spells he has available, a rogue can do almost as well in most cases and better in some cases at all times.

This user gets it.

I know summer's almost over and you guys really want to keep shitposting about caster supremacy in a game you haven't played but in actual play it really isn't that much of an issue.

>in actual play
I think a lot of these posters have never done that.

I'll play 5E when it stops having worse martials than 3.5 did.

So how do we fix martials besides DM fiat?

...

They're not broken.

...

Both of these are good answers. I hope 5e gets a ToB of some kind. As it stands, only the Paladin is a decent martial, and it's only because he gets spells and smite.
Bard still does his job better with 2 levels of Paladin

You never will because 5E's fanbase is full of autistic screeching grognards.

I literally see nothing wrong with martials, whats wrong with them in your opinion?

Worse than casters at everything outside of combat
Only marginally more effective in combat
Have absolutely no interesting ways to contribute outside of combat

>marginally better in combat
not even really. They can TAKE hits alot better, but when it comes to actually doing good damage you basically sit and let the wizard release fireballs. Monsters get alot of health fairly fast and the damage martials do does not at all increase proportionally.

>list of interesting things martials can do in 5E:

Didn't fix the balance issues. Made CoDzillas less constantly overbuffed, but still busted.
>Level 20
>Fighter gets an additional attack
>Druid gets to Wild Shape at will
They just didn't care about anything beyond level 9.

The point stands that for virtually any potential specialty specialty, a Wizard can be better at it. Yes they are limited in resources per day, but you generally aren't trying to do a given task a massive number of times each day. IE if I wanted to play a super-infiltrator, a Wizard would likely be better than whatever Rogue/spymaster equivalent, simply because access to Invisibility, mobility spells, disguises and enchantments are so potent. The Rogue will be more consistent, but simply lacks these options that the wizard has. Limited access to greatness > Unlimited access to mediocrity.

you've never seen an action surging level five great weapon master fighter cut an oni in half have you?

a wizard casting fireball at third level deals 8d6 fire damage in a 20 ft AOE or half damage on a successful saving throw. averaging at 28 damage on a failed saving throw or 14 on a successful save

a level five fighter hitting twice without an action surge can deliver 4d6+26 damage, averaging at 40 damage, to do this he has to land two hit rolls on the enemy with a +2 to hit however so its not exactly reliable, even assuming that the wizard rolls max damage on his fireball however, he only does 48 damage, wheras the fighter dealing max damage deals 50, actuall exceeding the wizard slightly.

martials do more damage than wizards in almost every appreciable sense except when fighting against hordes, which casters are good at.

Fireball is a spell for damaging hordes, though; it's silly to compare it to the single-target damage of a fighter. And assuming that the Fighter does make his two hits and deals his average of 40, we could even assume that half the enemies successfully save against Fireball (for average 21 damage) and a Fireball hitting two targets (not exactly a "horde") would still be doing more damage than the Fighter, but also at greater range.

Versus larger numbers of opponents, this of course slants WAY in the Wizard's favor, capable of dealing many times the Fighter's damage with each fireball or similar spell.

Versus huge single enemies, where the single-target damage of the Fighter shines, the Wizard still has access to spells like Haste to buff the rest of the team, or can use single-target debilitating spells like Confusion to make the target waste most of its actions, assuming they can't outright mind-control it to join their side.

Having the Fighter on the team is useful for tanking and dealing single-target damage, but if we already have a Fighter and a Wizard, the team would probably be served better by a second Wizard than a second Fighter.

>Why do you even have a rogue at this point, because you have a choice between hiding or literally being invisible?
Because "invisible" doesn't mean "quiet", and most things still fucking have ears, and noses to smell your stinky autist wizard. Any decent DM is still going to ask your invisible wizard for Stealth rolls, because Invisibility is not Stealth. The Stealth skill is an abstract for being quiet AND unseen AND keeping downwind so your scent doesn't tip off your target AND etc.

gain resistance to all forms of damage except psychic, crit on 18's, 19's and 20's, automatically regenerate hitpoints equal to con mod+5, go beyond the strength and con score limit, go super saiyan, deal over three hundred damage in a surprise round, break the skill limitation and raise strength and con scores beyond human limitations, roleplay as kenshiro from fist of the north star, teleport through shadows, become the avatar, fly, give advantage to attack rolls to allies near you, see up to a mile away without difficulty, teleport, reflect, take twenty, steal low level spells, grapple giants, break the world record for the 100 meter sprint, redirect projectiles and become a human blender

these are the things I know off the top of my head

I have repeated myself, shit

To be fair, 5 fighter attacks will kill a Druid out of wild shape then kill the druid, especially combined with Action Surge for 10 attacks, which they can do after a full run towards said druid.

>It's only useful against magical doors with arbitrarily difficult DC's
Not quite. Knock is for when you need that shit opened RIGHT GODDAMN NOW and you're not worried about making noise to do it. It's the Wizard version of chopping the treasure chest's lock off.

The vast majority of those aren't interesting and a lot of them have been done before but better too.

>Very obvious and loud spell incantation
"Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of Silence, such as one created by the Silence spell, can’t Cast a Spell with a verbal component."
Nowhere that I can find says that it "obvious and loud". It seems like you could even whisper it; you just can't be gagged or otherwise unable to speak.
>For a minute or two
If you need more than this, you're doing something wrong.
>Flight over obstacles
Or teleport...? Dimension door would be the stealthier option.
>Opening a door?
Why are you wasting your spells on opening doors? Just take the keys from a guard or something. If you're going to need to open tons of locked doors, it makes more sense to get the single object that bypasses all of them.
>Magical items
Wizard gets them too

Meanwhile, the Wizard can:
-Perfectly disguise themself
-Move quickly over vast distances
-Charm, mindcontrol, mind-read and so forth targets
-Use divinations and summons to quickly and efficiently gather intel
-Make illusions to confuse and trick opponents, indirectly controlling their movements

The Wizard is a much better infiltrator/scout than the Rogue is.

wizards lack a decent source of on target burst damage on the lower levels though, I can't think of a single target spell that a level five wizard can cast that can beat the damage of an optimised fighter of the same level.

and I'll challenge you on the fact that you'd rather have a second wizard than a second fighter, because there is fuck all out of combat that two wizards can do that one wizard can't and in combat if you don't blow up what you're fighting immediately then one of those wizards is fucking dead before he gets his next turn, at least in low levels where most games actually take place.

I mean in any decent adventuring party some source of healing is a must, and a wizard can't do that so if you do take two wizard that means the third party member needs to be a healer and the fighter needs to become the fucking wall in which case he should roll a barbarian instead.

however fighters can control the frontline on their own, allowing for a much greater diversity of builds for the remaining two players and meaning that though the third person needs to go with some heals he doesn't need to go dedicated healsut, he can pick up a druid or a warcleric or even a bard instead. besides fighters are probably the third most diverse class in terms of build possibility so there won't be much overlap between the two.

>I hope 5e gets a ToB of some kind
I convinced my DM to let me use this for my rogue, mainly because I missed Smokesticks and all those other fun items that were completely left out of 5e for some inane reason. He's okay with most everything above "Anatomic Combat", though he's still on the fence regarding Sunder. Doesn't bother me much, because Rogue, but our Barbarian could likely make use of the rule if allowed and inventive enough to utilize it.

Wizards, Clerics, Bards, and Druids can do all of that except better

And the Bard is even better because they get a large chunk of those utility spells the Wizard gets, can steal the ones they don't get but want, can be a monster in combat, and even if they don't even touch spells they're great out of combat. That's the real caster supremacy right there.

A fair bit of those are either temporary, things martials can do and sometimes sooner, level 20 things, or a once per rest. A cleric could contact god at level 5 I think it was?

The main difference is that a munchkin 'that guy' rarely picks bard