How do you write a decent villain redemption

Make her a succubus, and then have your players line up to write it for you.

Jaime Lannister

No, and fuck you.

You don't start off with being an adulterous sister-fucker who's first major act is trying to murder a kid, and then go through the most convoluted bullshit to pretend that he might not be so bad after all.

George has absolutely no sense for character arcs beyond interpreting his characters as empty of personal convictions and simply molded by the need for metamorphosis as decreed by him.

...

What a fucking arc. I didn't even notice I started liking him until he was training with Brahn.

I wouldn't call it redemption.
He has taken a few tiny steps in the right direction, but that's about it.

Define what redemption entails. Living?

Oh, you're one of those....

You know that's the payoff though. Theon is in the same boat.

>You know that's the payoff though.
Not sure about that.
They both have a lot to atone for.

>Even on Veeky Forums, more than ten years after the original series ended, I can't escape retarded Zutara shippers
More than anything I hate myself for getting worked up about it, but you and your kind are dumb and your opinions are dumb.

And everyone knows that toph is the superior waifu.

If you sanely consider legend of korra non-canon

Waifus and shipping are two very different things, user.

I would say that Jaime's redemption wasn't a real redemption, since Jaime Did Nothing Wrong™ to begin with. That being said, it's a good formula for how to do redemption.

Step one is to make a villain with sympathetic motives/actions, but an unsympathetic personality. Let's take Jaime as an example. As the reader, we would have done everything Jaime did; we would have murdered Aerys to save King's Landing, we would have pushed Bran to save our family. But, we don't think about any of that because Jaime is such a tremendous cunt when he's first introduced.

Step two is to reform the villain's unsympathetic personality in one way or another. Usually this is through suffering, often in the form of having what they value most be taken away from them. This can be seen both in Jaime, and in Zuko.

Once these two steps are complete, redemption follows naturally. Either minor faults get rightfully forgiven, or the character atones for their major faults as the arc progresses.

Basically, the best redemptions aren't really redemptions, because the best villains aren't really villains.

Jaime Lannister did nothing wrong.

P5 spoilers inbound

This shit right here pissed me off. Why was the gang so ok with him? Especially Futaba. Her mother died by his hands. Everyother villain and even mementos targets the gang has no remorse for but adachi? They forgive him like nothing happened. Why could't they tell him to eat a dick? Biggest flaw in the game tbqh and I hate how /pg/ defended it and did all these sort of mental gymnastics.

>maybe some one ELSE killed Futaba's mom?its all Baldman's fault, Adachi dindu muffins!1!!!!11

Providing 50% of this guy's genetic makeup is hardly nothing, and that's not even the worst of his crimes.

I haven't played P5 but isn't their whole deal making assholes into better people? Giving someone who has personally wronged them a legitimate chance at redemption sounds to me like they just pass the ultimate test of their character.

And it's not like the P4 crew doesn't deny Adachi and Sho their chances at redemption for the sake of vengeance either.

Zuko should've ended up with Sokka

Well, they didn't exactly forgive him; pretty sure they'd have forced him to turn his ass in if he had lived.
They definitely were a great deal too sympathetic to him though, especially Futaba and Haru.

I guess Atlus just wanted those teenage girls bucks.

>I haven't played P5 but isn't their whole deal making assholes into better people? Giving someone who has personally wronged them a legitimate chance at redemption sounds to me like they just pass the ultimate test of their character.
The guy was a few subway cars of innocent people past the point of redemption.

Only reason he gets apologists is that he's a pretty boy with some tragic backstory, so he gets idiotic teenage girls the idea that they could fix him.
Same deal as MCU Loki.

Jin and her massive tits were the correct choice

...

This. Jamie recognizes the shit going on around him, and his only real remaining fault is his inability to admit just how much Cersei needs to be put down for the good of literally everyone else.

Jamie's redemption will be a mirror of himself and the Mad King, killing the queen to save the realm from her madness.

And just like before, history will spit on him for doing the only right thing he ever did.

ultimately that's the stance the game takes by having him die. it's not out of character for teenagers to balk and try to communicate with someone they've known on a more personal level. hypocritical? arguably, but in line with the kind of cognitive dissonance that inevitably distorts human attempts to put hardline moral systems (even unwritten informal ones) into practice

Then don't call it redemption, call it doing the right thing for once in his miserable life. The point stands. Let him do good.

Jamie is the prince that was promised, he will forge lightbringer by killing Cerci(his Nissa) his sword was temperd first in water(bath confession) and then in lion blood(loss of his hand) just like AA.

>Be Me
>A Raider who plunder many villages
>Wonder into a random village
>"You know, these people are alright."
>Realize this village is next on my raider party's list
>Well shit

Is he going to join in on the raid or try to stop it? Find out next on......

I'm salty he chose that boring not attractive chick over this 10/10 earth kingdom hottie

It helps a lot if you fill in the background of WHY a person did what they did. The context is key. Temptations to act badly are all around us all the time. Some of us have stronger motivations, or more chances, but we all make decisions that lean towards being moral or not. Would you do something evil if someone put a gun to your head? Would you do evil to keep your job and feed your family? To save your spouse? To serve your nation? If you knew you would get away with it? Against someone helpless to stop you? Against someone you think deserves it?

Redemption is an understanding that one acted wrongly. Doing this properly is hard. People do not like to change their views. They do not like to face up to contradictions in what they 'know' to be true. Many would rather die than change. Consider political views, or addictions, as easy examples. To change realistically either needs to be a gradual or shocking process. Avatar is actually a really good example because it took several events and a couple betrayals to really cement Zuko's change for the better. He stumbled multiple times as his former understanding of the world reasserted themselves like a bad habit.

He did have no intention of doing the right thing though.His only real regret was lacking the strength to murder the main cast.

The PT sparing Akechi's life and having him confess his crimes would have made sense; them acting all sad for for him does not.

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO FAGGOT

I've been a shell of a man since Wasteland Warrior left.

>them acting all sad for for him does not.
Wasn't his dad a bigger, eviller asshole than he was? It's easy to see that it's not going to be easy for someone to not become an evil asshole if they're born into the wrong kind of shitty situation.

>it's not going to be easy for someone to not become an evil asshole if they're born into the wrong kind of shitty situation.
His dad had no idea he even existed.
Admittedly, he grew up an illegitimate child, which does apprarently entail some stigma in Japan, but it is pretty clear that he had the smarts necessary to succeed on his own.

Instead he chose to appoach and murder people for his dad for good boy points.

Oh, and he planned to eventually kill his dad too, he just wanted him to succeed before that so his heelturn would have more gravitas.

Basically exactly like your picture. Make them an actual character to start with, who did evil shit for actual reasons, then let them discover, either gradually or all at once, that they shouldn't be doing those things- whether that be the realization that they're going about accomplishing their goals all wrong, or that their goals are wrong, or that they've been misguided or whatever. Then have them actually have to work hard to overcome the mistakes they've made, and have it be a challenge for them. Again, like Zuko- he finally wants to do good and he almost doesn't get the chance because he's done so much wrong that nobody's willing to trust him. A lifetime of doing wrong doesn't get washed away in an instant because you decided to try to fix it.

You could go the Vegeta route and give them a common enemy, then casually domesticate them.

I don't know, I can see Zuko/Toph

It really is fucked up that the best thing Jamie ever did is the thing that gets him most of his shit

She can't.

Horrible facial scarring and blind girls go hand in hand.

...

i sort of attempted to do it and the players didn't really engage.
i wrote a guy who was more concerned about saving the world than principle, and "used"(worshiped) a tyrannical god who tempted mortals to get to it.

the players ended up killing him and later this resurrected avatar, and the villain willingly instructed the players (after seeing his defeat was imminent) how to gain from his power in a similar fashion to continue saving the world, but they wouldn't have it.

by giving them a reason to change as a person, Zuko changed because he was willing to accept that he was a fuck-up and he wanted to change himself to be better

I dont think you would be able to write Zuko as a character without Iroh though, Iroh was the voice of reason that really set him up to be better.

Nah, I still hated the fuck out of him when everything was said and done.

I kinda wish Jeoffrey never died
Hating him was amazing

A big part of what made Zuko's redemption so good and actually plausible/possible was the TV show medium. Thanks to that, we could follow Zuko around and see what went through his mind and the stuff he went through. By the time he approached the GAang (or whatever they were called back in the day), Zuko was already a fully-formed, well developed character. We, the audience, could understand and sympathise with what Zuko was doing/going through, even if the good guys couldn't initially, which allowed us to accept the idea that this guy who had been following Aang around trying to capture him and do all sorts of other unsavory shit, suddenly wanted to help them out.
As an aside, I also really liked how Zuko got a one on one episode to develop his relationship with each of the other characters, even if it did lead to some retarded shipping. It really reminded me of when a sixth Ranger gets added to a Sentai team.
This is much harder to replicate in an RPG setting, because the "POV" pretty much has to be through the players' eyes at all times. I know my players wouldn't have the attention span or empathy to sit through me monologuing some arch-lich's sob story, and as soon as they realised that I was gunning for a redemption, their murderous urges would just kick into overdrive.
If the villain is a PC, it's much easier to do and the others in the thread have one over that already.
I will add that "locked room" or "lost on an island" shenanigans that necessitate cooperation is a great way to get the ball rolling on a redemption arc.
Also, a good makeover can do wonders, just compare your pic with mine, although again, visual medium really helps here.

>romancing dirty peasants

They're not that massive

Sorta. He's definitely gone a long way from the guy who pushed Bran. Any news on what's happening after he met Brienne? Any Lady Stoneheart encounters?

What is Jaime's alignment?

Why are you calling him Adachi?

I clicked this thread because the person I love hates me.... I don't know how to make it better without dying....

I don't know that a villain should ever be intended to be redeemed. It's fair that they MIGHT be able to, but it works best if it happens as the results of the party's efforts. That way the party is actively trying to redeem them with forgiveness instead of you hamfisting your OC into them.

>hamfisting your OC into them

I was saying that that is something I wouldn't do, because I know it's something my players wouldn't want or appreciate, purely because as you said, I shouldn't be the one deciding and certainly not with a character that only I care about, which is what I was getting at when I was saying how the RPG medium is less suited for that kind of development then a TV show.
Which is why I recommended the "trapped on an island" cliche or whatever, because that puts the players in a situation where if they want to, they can act just as they would if they were exploring a dungeon normally and had come across a villain or if they want, they can then go about working together with the villain, and afterwards they might think "Oh, that guy wasn't so bad after all" or they might hate the villain even more.
The point isn't to use your players as a tool to play out the story in your head, but rather to give them all the stuff they need to contribute in their own way.

Tear him down. Build him up.

The fact that Sokka/Toph didn't happen is criminal. Their children would've been shitposting MASTERS.

by realizing redemption isn't for everyone. sometimes regret is better.

Also persistence.

Hear me out. Take Franz Joseph of Hapsburg, ole Kaiser un Koning himself. Aristocratic villain that sics slavic hordes on democratic nationalists yearning to breathe free, fields his anachro-medieval empire as the opposing force in every human interest story for half a century. Evil Emperor with empire to match. And three generations later a man keeping the world *sane* possibly by sheer force of will, and going by what happened when he kicked bucket it turns out maybe he was. Same guy, and he never changed.

That really is an ur-example or GRRM pushing his "everything is shit" world. Realistically the lannesters, being big fucking shots would have shouted it far and wide that jamie saved kings landing. It wouldn't be hard to sway the common folk. But for some reason nobody asked, or cared and so word spread from those with more honour then sense instead.

If I couldn't forgive Meruem for all the shit he pulled, neither would others be able to.

He was an insufferable Mary Sue, what with "Oh, Chimera Ants can learn Nen right off the bat if they are hit with it."
No, no no: that is absolute bullshit.

He should have ended up with Azula.

Make them a PC.

"That's rough, buddy."

- Prince Zuko

Maybe run a couple sessions where the players play as the bad guy's underlings or something like that? That way you can show them in a different light.

Sokka should have ended up with Toph

Given time, wounds can heal
what'd you do?

user, that show could easily work under the title of "Shipping Galore: The Legend of Aang". You could literally pair anything with anyone.
And then there is a decade worth of fanfiction.
And decade of worth of official supplementry materials, some of them even keeping on the tier of source quality.
It's unlikely people in this very generation are going to get over Avatar in a quick fashion, despite Legend of Korra pretty much tarnishing the franchise into wrestling in mud.

Best pairing.

Honestly, from all ships that could work so well, NONE happend. It's almost as the writers did that on purpose.

I didn't show affection in the relationship that means everything to me... I don't know why I'm doing it and I don't know how to make a change

Translation, they're either being a needy little shit, or you're being a neurotic cunt, or a degree of both.
If you want to show them affection because you actually have affection for them, do it. If you have a comfortable relationship based on quiet appreciation for each others company, don't rock the boat, if you're vindictive cunts to each other because you guys get off on that, call their mother a whore and then hatefuck each other.
Do you see what I'm getting at?

This depends on the villain's backstory and current situation. Some get redeemed after they spend some time in a special prison, some may realize they're wrong when they succeed but see what they've done wrong, some - as they're getting punished, some - as they meet somebody they gonna care for, some are irredeemable.

>Oh, Chimera Ants can learn Nen right off the bat if they are hit with it."

thats how nen works for everyone, not just the ants, thats how Gon and Killia unlocked nen.

He poisoned our water supply, burned our crops and delivered the plague onto our houses

>Translation, they're either being a needy little shit, or you're being a neurotic cunt, or a degree of both.
I thought they're a bit needy before but that's because I'm so stupid.. no one has ever loved me like they did
I can't show affection properly and now they hate and love me at the same time
>If you have a comfortable relationship based on quiet appreciation for each others company, don't rock the boat
we used to..... I rocked the boat by being a selfish little shit and now I don't know what to do with myself

How do I get this back? I wanna die
I'm sorry for this, it's not even for this board

I'd say they have to not have been that bad in the first place. Like sure, they must be on the wrong path else redemption wouldn't be necessary but there needs to be some evident goodness in them

[Spoiler]I obviously dying know what happened, but it might not be too late to fix things. I recently went through a similar thing, and while she doesn't want to be in a relationship with me, we're still friends. I know it can be hard to try, because my depression does the same shit to me, but you gotta try to try, if that makes sense. If it is too late, you'll eventually move on and find someone else. You just gotta hang in there. You're gonna make it.

...

If they're as vapid and overly emotional as you, draw on those shitty romance movies as inspiration, if they act like an actual adult, be calm collected and tell them how you feel about them you fucking moron.
Also, stop using ellipses, it makes you seem like a 15 year old trying to get over their first crush.

It does contradict a ton of shit in avatar

Cersei_jaime_roll_eyes.mng

This.

To have any chance of redemption you can't start as irredimable evil, since that kinda defeats the purpose. If you pick up a fucking "chaotic evil" (for lack of better term) mass killer and then try to redeem him by saying "he's good now and feels sorry", it's going to fall flat.

And going by Zuko example, you need to went through a REALLY long trip in said redemption, rather than saying "he's one of the good guys now" and everyone taking that at face value. That's not going to work. At all.

Or have them be captured and have a mind control chipput in their heads and thr gradually tame them a la spike

You can always start CE and then reveal "he is innocent, but possessed by a demon"

Just go full Apophis.

It's a LDR, they always gave me a lot of affection and I was always autistic, thinking 'logically'. We have a ton of problems outside of the relationship and we only had money to see each other once. So I would think that I should work now so we can see each other soon (I'm a freelancer). While they just wanted to be with me in the moment.

I lacked emotion for a big part of my life. Being with them I got really emotional and now I'm in depression. I always think I have it figured out and then they get angry with me. I need to think more.

FUCK

Which is one of the rules of thumb of how NOT to run a redemption arc, as it undermines the whole process of an evil person stopping being evil, just because you exorcised them.
That's just flat out boring and short-selling the whole concept, because the "evil person" turns out to be never evil in the first place, while the demon in question is still evil and just killed/banished. Where is the redemption part, if you have literally another person in control and said person quite forcibly removed from the equation?

How long distance are we talking?

By the way thank you for the advice, I did read what you said. I'm so self-centered I can't even reply to a post on Veeky Forums. What the fuck is wrong with me, I wonder? Always too late.

800-1000km

Try not to beat yourself up dude. Hating yourself is only gonna drag you down further. I know it can be hard, but you need to like yourself.
Also, 1000km is pretty rough. Good luck, user, I hope it works out