/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

With Pledgecrafting gone, what should be new complicated freeform system Changeling players should enjoy in Second edition? Freehold Creation rules can be used as a fun way to invest players in worldbuilding, but what comes on sessions after?

Have they said anything about why the hell they think removing Pledge mechanics is a good idea?

>Also post OP images, I need them.
>imgur.com/a/oerTd

About two-thirds of those images are from the Dresden Files.

>Mage Supremacy

>Dresden Files.
>Mage Supremacy

No, just a certain good natured, low Wisdom Obrimos Adamantine Arrow supremacy

How would you nerf mages while they are still top tier?

Impractical solution: Breath of the Dragon (vicissitude 8)
it allows you to exhale fire.

you could argue that Depending on where the fire starts it may incinerate any meal you had (so you don't need to puke it out)

Perhaps they were annoyed by idea of Changelings being able to weaponize "Aladin -routine" where they would give incredible wealth to mortals as way of making powerful allies.

Now there's an image for you. A thousand year quest to diablerize Dracula, raising your generation to the point you can learn the power. All that for one reason and one reason only: Eating hamburgers, which you've apparently known were going to exist thanks to Ronald McDonald being a time travelling Virtual Adept dispensing prophecy or something.

Metapledgebuilding. A system to create a system of pledgebuilding rules. They can pay Brucatto to write it, it'll be great.

Or, I don't know, some sort of story system, like a watered down one the true fae used in equinox road.

How compatible are 20 materials with Chronicles? I know their settings are completely oWoD but my familiarity with either system is bit too limited to tell them apart.

Not at all. There are translation guides for major lines, and some of the minor ones, but vastly different settings and mechanics as you mentioned.

owod has a heavy dose of metaplot, too, which can make porting over some premade adventures a little difficult.

I'm loving it.

Can you help out understanding differences in systems a little to help recognize them from one another?

Changeling crossover sounds fun just as a mental exercise. Going with Lost and pitching that Dreaming is really just True Fae propaganda is bit too easy and leaves bad taste in the subtle aesop created in metatextual context.
How could Lost be reinterpreted into Dreaming universe? Autumn people who were exposed to dreaming against their wishes?

Okay, nWoD/CofD/GMC tend to run on a 'core' system with some bolt-ons for the individual splat. oWoD rulesets are pretty individual. Basically, if a stat block as a 'perception' stat it's oWoD. oWoD has backgrounds and traits and merits and flaws - nWoD bundles this into the 'merits' traits.

Oh, and difficulty numbers for your dice tests. oWoD is rife with them, nwod has none. You can skim pretty easily and pick out which book is which.

nWoD is, mechanically, a lot smoother than oWoD, which is approaching D&D at times (but is never anywhere near as bad as exalted).

translating both ways or only 1?

Wait, all garou have the possibility to date rape people?

Most have two way translations. They're guides for integrating parts of the setting into others, or wholesale conversions to the new ruleset.

I think most if not all splats can do that.

Alright, look. I helped make M20 bashing the official pastime of /wodg/ but if you're going to do that, you have a responsibility to not be as retarded and hyperbolic as Phil.

And you're categorically failing. Yes, Paradigm is still in the book. It's rolled into Focus along with style and instruments. And while you're at it, no this isn't the "purple paradigm".do us all a favor and shut the fuck up about one of the few, few good parts of M20. This is a good idea that needs, well, focus.

>Don't play Nephandi.
This is how I know you're a newfag. Mage has always been that way. Always. Going to the cauls or permanent quiet is handled the same way that Vampire handles the wassail: that character becomes an NPC. And it's been that way for the history of the game line.

>Phil hates Psychiatry.
Inferred and unsupported by Author statements. Phil actually has an interview where he comments on how terrifying mental illness is after his schizophrenic neighbor decided to burn his apartment building down in order to exorcise the demons living there.

>Muh magic versus science.
It's actually freedom versus control. The term "Technocrat" is a deliberate choice to show that.

So can mortals if they are date-raping assholes.

How would I bring Mages in-line with the other Templates?

Or conversely, how would I make non-Supernal magic on par with Mages?

>How would I bring Mages in-line with the other Templates?
You don't. Wizards should be at the top of the food chain. They're the goddamn scientists and scholars of the magical world.

>how would I make non-Supernal magic on par with Mages?
Supernal magic is supposed to be the most potent. Other magics can be used to defend against it, but not reliably.

It kind of defeats the meaning of the unified setting if the one foolproof answer to every problem would be "find a mage or two and suck their dicks so they will make the big nasty supernatural go away." Sure that works in a gameline, but that doesn't make a good, compelling, and believable setting.

Why are you buttmunches so fucking obsessed with nerfing mages I don't fucking understand it

>Wizards should be at the top of the food chain. They're the goddamn scientists and scholars of the magical world.

that's an odd way of putting it, i don't really think of scientists and scholars when i think "top of the food chain".

>Yes, Paradigm is still in the book.
No, it isn't. How the fuck is Paradigm still supported if a Virtual Adept can cast a ritual with a joint and a Yoga mat, and nary a computer to be seen? Paradigm was more than you seem to think it was, it was an entire worldview.
> And while you're at it, no this isn't the "purple paradigm"
Yes it is, Purple Paradigm was the Mage equivalent of "whatever I was going to do anyway". If I can have a technomage Dreamspeaker, how the fuck is that not PP?

>This is how I know you're a newfag. Mage has always been that way. Always.
Yes, it's not like the 20th Anniversaries added anything new for other gamelines is it? Wait.... oh well, it's not like other games like Werewolf ever allowed you to... What do you mean, "Freak Legion" is a thing? What do you mean, there are notes on BSD? Okay, fine, but it's not like the Technocracy were unremitting black hat and mustachio'd assholes before they were play- oh, okay. Fine, but don't try and convince me that Wraith had books on playing Spectres!

>Inferred and unsupported by Author statements.
Of course it fucking is, most mentally ill people have a problem recognising that they are. How do you cognate that if your cognition is flawed? The fact remains, Brucatto exhibits an irrational fear of modern medicine and psychiatry. Who else does? Schizophrenics. Just because he can recognise that illness in others doesn't mean he'd magically immune to it himself. Your argument is illogical.

>It's actually freedom versus control.
Great, the "freedom" to live in a shitty subsistance-level agrarian society in near-servitude to the Covenant on the hill, VS. the "control" responsible for keeping tentacled blasphemous horrors from the depth of space eating the planet like a Kinder Surprise Egg.

This is the same bullshit I see from teenagers bitching about how they wish all Cops would die, apparently oblivious to the nightmarish Hobbesian state that would unleash.

They understand how everything works. They know how to fuck you over. Knowledge is power.

Mysteries are just that.

Do Kuei-Jin's higher ends match up to vampires (like 3rd gen) or older mages?

Look its fine that they are all powerful in their gameline and everything in their gameline revolves around them but that's not how a unified setting works.

isnt freak legion the book with the Penis gun?

>"find a mage or two and suck their dicks so they will make the big nasty supernatural go away."

It's not that easy. What's in it for the Mage? This is also assuming you even have anything they so desire.
They won't just go out of their way to solve all of your issues.

It pisses off a few Keyboard Warriors, and the butthurt makes a few bored teenagers forget that they're never getting laid. The other side retaliates with the usual bullshit; jokes about lawnchairs, "mage supremacy u guise", poking fun at LARP, etc. etc. etc.

It's boring as piss. I wish they'd all just fall over and bleed profusely, but I wouldn't get to watch and laugh.

Scientists would be at the top of the food chain if they could do what they do at the snap of their fingers. Except they can't. But magic can.

It's not specifically a penis gun, it's freakish genitals. They can be used to hold and fire a gun, though. Also, the same mutation in females is basically vagina dentata. What a wonderful phrase! Vagina Dentata, it aint no passing craze. It means no penis, for the rest of your days! It's our phallic free philosophy... Vagina Dentata.

In Mage only game of course Mages should be able to kick True Fae just because they had right arcana and read few of its secrets. But in a game where Mages and Changelings exist for Changeling games themes and setting to function adequately True Fae should be able to no-sell Mage magic with their contracts. Because in Changeling, True Fae as a whole are unbeatable threat and unquestionable masters of Arcadia, who in Mage terms would be just Exarchs.

Then they are dicks who are fine with watching world burn while they sip wine in their ivory towers. You might enjoy such setting but you have to understand that at that point some people may be turned off and politely ask to leave the table and go make chronicles where hedge mages are pinacle of human magic.

There's no need for that. Only a cunning Mage proficient in Matter or Fate, and maybe Prime, would be able to dick around with the Gentry.

>True Fae as a whole are unbeatable threat and unquestionable masters of Arcadia, who in Mage terms would be just Exarchs.
The True Fae are capable of being toppled in short numbers. Not so with the Exarchs. They're not something you can fight.

>Then they are dicks who are fine with watching world burn while they sip wine in their ivory towers

As is intended

>They understand how everything works. They know how to fuck you over. Knowledge is power.

they have superpowers which let them fuck you over. an ordinary mortal scholar of the magical world, regardless of how much he knows, would be fucked against a vampire because they don't have superpowers. or at least they might figure out a clever plan to defeat the vampire using his weaknesses against him, and then you could say that knowledge = power. mages are more like "knowledge is power if you also happen to have superpowers that let you warp reality", in which case the knowledge is really not the major part of the equation.

which brings us back to the point, that mages are only as powerful as the superpowers you give them. they don't have to be at the top of the food chain if you don't want, and that's what user was asking for.

You're pretty much agreeing with me, user.

Mage is about the power and the ability to utilize the knowledge you've acquired. Mysteries are a thing.

That's exactly what I am saying. That's not just fine, it's perfectly good in Mage only game with cameo from True Fae.
This however absolutely shouldn't fly in crossover game. Because it robs away the triumph Changelings had of having escaped from literal Gods and metaphorically pisses on the entire gameline. In Changeling Mage Crossover, True Fae should be treated as equals of Exarchs in Arcadia and Hedge. Otherwise you have few misplaced Changeling players in Mage game.

So magical scholars and scientists > magical corpses and monsters. ok.

Yeah. Thank you for verifying why I don't want to play Mage.

which is fine for the splat but it's not what user asked for.

You seem to think that the Gentry are a cakewalk for even a Master. They're not.

>True Fae should be treated as equals of Exarchs in Arcadia and Hedge
That literally wouldn't work. The Exarchs are living concepts, the True Fae are something you can actually physically challenge.

Some of them. Stuff like the Tempest of Inward Focus is so much cancer, while the smoke shintai is the stupidest bloody thing I've ever seen.

Resource management tends to be a problem, and power can fluctuate wildly if your GM is too liberal with dharma events. Virtue pairing basically means you're going to have problems down the road. So: Combat, yes, out of combat life, kind of?

WoD fag here. This is something I really do not like about cfod/nwod. Instead of splats, there should have created a united cfod setting.

What user asked for?

I'm only mentioning the fact that Mages, as a whole, are gloriously overpowered because of their knowledge and their insane versatility used in function with that.

>there should have created a united cfod setting.

There already is. The CofD is a shared setting. You just get to decide to fill in the gaps.

>If I can have a technomage Dreamspeaker, how the fuck is that not PP?

Because it would be just a glasswalker. Seriously, the rules allows you to craft any paradigm you want.....in chargen and raw. And technomage dreamspeaker were a thing before M20

But aside from that the dm can forbid your yoga weed mage from being part of the virtual adepts because why would have they ask him to join? Or how would he, being part of the VA, learned to cast magic with yoga and weed.

Both OWoD and CofD are shared universes.

The former has a horrendous metaplot going on, which made everything terrible
The latter is more of a sandbox, you get to decide how they interact, mostly.

>You just get to decide to fill in the gaps

Can i decide to put mages on the low tier?

Mages are best treated as wild cards at the least and plot devices at their greatest.

It's not really robbing Changelings of their themes, more so bringing in something interesting and exotic.

If you want. Though I'm not sure why it'd matter. Lorewise, Mages deal with the most powerful antagonists in the setting. To weaken them is to kill them off.

Not if you live in delusion that Gamelines are by default designed in same setting and crossover doesn't require adjustments to preserve uniqueness and themes of its gamelines. You seem to harbor under misconception that World of Darkness=Mage -setting, while what I am saying that when game's theme isn't only just "Mages being awesome and narcissistic" but for example "Changelings are awesome for managing to escape from True Fae", maybe rules should make it just as hard or even harder for Mages to fight with True Fae when compared to Changeling.
Again not saying this should always apply, but it should apply when crossing over. Mages should only be all powerful when only Mages or equally powerful sit at the table.

Consider whole Mage: the Awakening to be written from perspective of Mages.
Of course in their opinion they are dealing with only most powerful entities of World of Darkness, ones that would eat all other splats and their antagonists fro breakfast in one well swoop.
Mage are Awesome, according to Mages.

>Wizards should be at the top of the food chain. They're the goddamn scientists and scholars of the magical world.

Mages are scientists and scholars like Indiana Jones and Batman are scientists and scholars. The statement is accurate, but still lacking in scale.

>You seem to harbor under misconception that World of Darkness=Mage -setting
Except I don't. The WoD doesn't revolve around Mages, Mages revolved around the WoD

If you want something answered or discovered, you go find your local wizard.

>maybe rules should make it just as hard or even harder for Mages to fight with True Fae when compared to Changeling.
This is already the case. The True Fae are powerful enough to terrify a Pack of Werewolves and irk a Master.

A Master of Fate/Matter specifically would be more secure.

Overall, I think you're assuming that Mages are going to run out and solve all of a Changeling's issues. They won't. Use Mages as storyteller characters, not actual PCs.

You can make them interesting without nerfing them down.

By the greentext statement Autumn Court Changelings should be equals to Mages because they too study all supernatural with care and precision behind the Mask.
Watch this statement upset Mages.

Nah, Mage scholars/scientists/researchers are greater because Supernal magic is a far better medium for it.

All splats have a sorcerous and/or scholarly faction. Mages just excel in it the most.

Yeah freedom is kind of bullshit when the non-mage population of Horizon has been subjected to Impergium 2: Ascension boogaloo

I would actually buff True Fae rather than nerf Mages in scenario where I had crossover game with both Changeling and Mage players. Simply give them Mastery of Fate and little bit of Life and Mind and they should be able to give Mages as much trouble as Changelings.

An Adept of Fate and/or Matter would also be able to challenge a True Fae, potentially.

>Overall, I think you're assuming that Mages are going to run out and solve all of a Changeling's issues.

A mage is more likely to capture and vivisect a changeling that go out solve his problems.

Pentacle mages are self-centered, narcissistic, OCD douches, the Seers are much, much worse, and Scelesti, Tremere, Mad and other Mage baddies are bowel-evacuating terrifying. Mages are NOT your friendly neighborhood superhero.

You really need to read Rose's recent notes on 2e True Fae

They don't need to be nerfed or buffed.

They excel at it most because game designers decided to give them the most flexible system with highest power roof. There isn't anything else to it.

How useful are the cfod rules for fantasy? (A LOT of the lore is straight from cfod. Especialy forsaken and awakening)

My group and I discuss if we should use cfod or another system.

>anti-magefags

You could always try using Dark Ages stuff?

>By the greentext statement Autumn Court Changelings should be equals to Mages because they too study all supernatural with care and precision behind the Mask.

Having Occult and Academics at 5 dots is certainly helpful in the CofD.

However, possessing dots in any Arcana allows one to apply such knowledge n a manner unavailable in breadth and level to virtually everyone else in the setting.

It's great to be a supernatural nuclear scientist, it's far better to be that scientist with a trunkload of uranium and all the military and electronic hardware they want.

They're also the most obsessive.

Wizard-Scholars > Other scholars

>Wizard-Scholars > Other scholars

>I have spent lifetimes honing my knowledge of the ephemeral world. Few can match my understanding.

>Well, I've got Spirit 1 and Death 1, so I guess I win.

I have always as a player had a heavy distaste for "objectively most powerful option in comparison to all other options". It might be immaturity of the fans here but the fact you all take pride in it... kind of makes me like the Mage even less.

>magefags

You seem to think that Mages just drop their pursuit of knowledge once they Awaken.

>I have spent lifetimes honing my knowledge of the ephemeral world. Few can match my understanding.
Could easily be applied to any member of the Mysterium or even Free Council.

Awakening isn't a warrant to lose all interest in the supernatural, if anything it pushed you further. I mean, Mysteries are core to the gameline.

Mages have access to information most scholars would drool over, and are far more interested in such matters.

>Well, I've got Spirit 1 and Death 1, so I guess I win.
>so I guess I win.
>guess

Of course sharing any of that with the rest of the world would be way below them so it all remains just as fetish fuel for vigorous intellectual self-gratification.

They would need more than Death 1 and Spirit 1, since you can't actually travel to their relevant realms with only Compelling to affect them.

I believe you missed my point. We're really not in disagreement.

Even baby mages with their basic abilities and rudimentary Arcana proficiency far surpass most other occult scholars, human and supernatural, and that's before consideration of their access to things like Order records or Athenaea.

An accomplished or experienced mage in usually in a class by himself in terms of supernatural knowledge or the means to acquire it.

I unironically love this book. Freak Legion not only has great info on playing Pentex Soliders (First Teams I think?) But also has an awesomely large selection of body horror powers that really help drive home the 'filthiness' of the Wyrm.

>Death 1 and Spirit 1

The simple Practices of Knowing and Unveiling put book learnin' to shame.

Gee, I wonder why the Mysterium is full of archaic libraries then?

>I wonder why the Mysterium is full of archaic libraries then?

Because not every mage has every Arcana at one dot or more, and obviously because Knowing and Unveiling plus recorded research is more impressive still.

>Gee, I wonder why the Mysterium is full of archaic libraries then?

Vanity.

What would they share, exactly? Also the Mysterium order book actually attributes the progress of education systems and the increasing importance placed on education to the order, even going so far as to say that Mystagogues disseminating their ideology into Sleeper cultures paved the way for the Renaissance.

Archivists are only one faction in the Order, and it helps to have other experiences and experiments to compare your own to. Athanea also contain way more than just books.

Not a sufficient answer. The Mysterium hoards knowledge like no other.

>Mystagogues disseminating their ideology into Sleeper cultures paved the way for the Renaissance.

Could you direct me to the page number? If not, that's fine. Just sounds a bit interesting.

Also I have visions of this vampire pulling a Ferrovax with an unlit cigar.