MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - 「 W E D N E S D A Y W E E K 」

Am I being detained?

You are now!

But I wasn't driving I was traveling. I'm a traveler.

So at FNM I was playing Gifts Storm in modern and got a kill via grapeshot, remand the original, grapeshot again. My opponent simply refused to believe that it worked and insisted that countering the spell means I counter the spell and I get nothing. I tried explaining it, the local GP grinder tried explaining it, even the store's resident judge (not a judge because his certs lapsed, but was an L1 at one point) tried explaining it. Didn't work, the fucktard kept screeching that I was wrong, I was a cheater, and by writing 2-0 on the match slip I was "commiting duel fraud" and needed to be banned

He finally got thrown out when he took a swing at me so I don't need to worry about THAT particular fucktard, but is there a good way to ELI5 this interaction to future players?

...

Absolutely!

So, he is correct that countering a spell means none of the spell effects happen. However, Storm is a triggered ability that triggers when the spell is cast. Storm happens whether or not Grapeshot resolves; in fact, because it triggers on the casting, the trigger CAN'T care or know whether the Grapeshot resolves, because Grapeshot can't even try to resolve until the Storm trigger does.

You might also point them to the Gatherer ruling for Grapeshot:
6/7/2013: A copy of a spell can be countered like any other spell, but it must be countered individually. Countering a spell with storm won’t affect the copies.

Or the one for Newlamog, which also has a 'when you cast' trigger:

8/25/2015: Ulamog’s first ability resolves independently of Ulamog once they’ve both been put on the stack. If Ulamog is countered, that triggered ability will still resolve. That triggered ability will always resolve before Ulamog does.

Or the CR entry for Storm:

702.39a. Storm is a triggered ability that functions on the stack. "Storm" means "When you cast this spell, put a copy of it onto the stack for each other spell that was cast before it this turn. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies."

Or the fact that a Head Judge's ruling is final, even if incorrect.

Take your pick!

I know all those, I'm trying to think of a way to EXPLAIN it, not just point to rules that can just be ignored as "the rules are wrong" or when bringing up storm specifically, "the spell was countered, so it doesn't get cast"

Also I need to make sure that I word things so I put the storm trigger on the stack before remand. Got a good shortcut for that?

I'm calling wizards on you, and you're gonna get unjudged.

If your opponent's logic is on par with "The rules are wrong", there's no point trying to explain it to them. They've already decided what they *want* to happen here, and anything you say that doesn't mesh with that will be wrong, or a lie, or they insist you're reading it wrong.

Arguing with someone like that is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how right you are, they'll just shit on the board and strut around like they won. If something like that comes up, just call a Judge and let them handle it.

For your second thing, there's nothing you need to 'word'. Storm will be on the stack before you have priority to cast Remand. There's not a different way to do that. If you just want to quickly communicate what you're doing, say "Grapeshot, holding priority. Storm triggers, cast Remand. Response?"

...

Do you carry a U/W deck on you at tournaments for this exact reason?

Nah. I just play along with people that are 'avin a giggle, and I give Stern Glares to people who are seriously trying to bully me into submission.

Have you ever bullied them back?

Bullied? No. But I have made it clear that I'm not gonna back down just because they puff up.

Have you ever hit one of them in their big dumb ole noses?

Metaphorically, yes.

Literally, no.

There was the time when I got punched in the face by an Army officer for telling him that the play he was trying to make was illegal, that was fun.

Did you guys play gay chicken afterwards?

Nah, I was only 16. He punched me, I went down, he packed up his shit and left the place.

>only 16
>didn't beat the 97y/o Vietnam vet with his own walker
What are you? Some kind of faggot?

Can you further explain the new optional choices rule?

If you play a card that allows your opponent to do an optional thing. They must know they can do it?

Basically, if a card gives your opponent the option to do something, and "not doing the thing" is invisible, you need to confirm that they're choosing not to do it.

For Path, if they just put their creature into exile and look at you like "Is that it?", you can't just assume that they're not searching. Since it's your effect, you need to make sure that they're not searching. Just a quick confirmation- "Searching for a land off of Path, or no?". If they confirm they are not, you're fine. If they say "I have no basics to find" as they're exiling their guy, also fine.

Basically, you can't just assume that ambiguous silence means 'I am choosing not to perform that optional action' anymore.

I was reading that mana leak is different. Is this because getting your spell counters by mana leak and not paying the 3 generic leads to the same non-noticeable result?

It's because there's not an "invisible option" where it's vague as to what happened. If they put their spell in the graveyard, they have clearly taken the choice of not paying 3. There's no need to confirm that.

The metric I saw and liked was "If your opponent's 'choice' could have also been made by a cardboard cutout of Jace, do not assume they actually made that choice. Confirm it."

Right, this is because mana leak has no optimal effect. It's just be countered and or pay 3?

But with rhystic study you would have to ask because there is an option to pay, if not they draw?

Shifting Shadow threw me for a bit of a loop some time ago.
So I had one stuck to Magus of the Mind and when it came time for my upkeep, I popped the Magus in response to the Shifting Shadow trigger. There's an entry on Gatherer that kind of covers this, and if I'm reading it right, that means I reveal cards until I hit a creature, which goes to the battlefield but Shifting Shadow stays in the graveyard.

Am I getting that right?

I believe I know the answer, but I just want confirmation.

If I have a creature that's 5/5 and has two -1/-1 counters placed on it will it die if Vatii makes it's toughness 1?

Well, that's how Rhystic has always been. You have to ask "Are you paying 1?". That's not a new thing.

Really the change is for things like Path and Ghost Quarter.

Yep! You activate Magus, then SBAs see an Aura attached to nothing and bin it. Then Magus' ability resolves, you do your thing, blah blah blah. Then the Shadow trigger resolves, because abilities on the stack exist independent of their sources. You do what you're said, but you can't perform the action of 'attach ~ to it' because Shifting Shadows isn't on board. So you shrug and move onto the next instruction.

It will. In Layer 7b, Vhati il-dal will set the toughness to 1 in layer 7b, and it'll be getting -2/-2 in layer 7d from the counters. So, all told, it's a 3/-1. Dead.

>Mairsil has a cage counter on both pack rat and mirage mirror
>activate pack rat ability
>in response activate mirage mirror (targeting anything really, but lets say a land)
What happens?

I'm pretty sure that you get a token copy of a land and mairsil turns back at end of turn. But people I've asked seem confused by the question and I havnt seen an *official* answer for this type of scenario. (There is an answer online but I'd rather have a judge confirm)

Copy effects get you the base, unaltered card... except, they pick up other copy effects.

The Mirage Mirror effect here would make Mairsil a copy of the land, so that's what it *is* in Layer 1. The Pack Rat ability says "Hey, what are we making?" and looks in layer 1, and just copies that. So you'd get a token copy of the land, because that's what Mairsil looked like at the time.

is it worth it to buy into MTGO? All I ever hear are complaints about the software and cost of playing. I don't have friends who play and cannot make it to FNM due to my schedule. I'd like to play more Magic and MTGO seems like my only option, but having to pay almost retail price for digital cards seems unreasonable to me.

>play smallpox
>put my card facedown on the graveyard waiting for my opponent to discard his
>he discards his card
>i turn my card face up, he immediatly picks his card back and discards another one
>i politely tell him he can't do that
>he gets all passive aggressive
>"OH SO YOU WANNA PLAY LIKE 'EM PROS EH? WE SHALL DO THAT OK"

The UI can be kinda trash, but the best things it has in its favor are that it's always there, that some things are BONKERS cheaper because the Reserve List doesn't apply online (Underground Sea is like 28 dollars on MTGO), and that it's a paradise for people who love to draft themselves stupid. It's also great if you want to play magic, but either don't really have a group (like you), or want to be more competitive than their group does.

I'd advise waiting to see what all Arena consists of before sinking any real cash into MTGO, though.

Cockatrice

In your opinion, what cards (if any) should come off the ban list in Modern and Legacy? Conversely, what cards (if any) should go on the ban list in Modern and Legacy?

To make it a bit easier for you to answer, assume that nothing in Ixalan shakes up the meta so much that a ban of a card in those formats would be warranted.

I really don't know enough about the metas there to have a real opinion, I'm afraid.

If avacyn angel of hope has been dealt 7 damage and then gets 2 -1-1 counters, she lives right?

Correct. She's now a 6/6 with 7 damage on her... that's still indestructible.

I'm really not sure why the "Almost lethal and then one -1/-1 counter gets around indestructible" misunderstanding is such a common one.

What qualifies as an activated effect for a card like Pithing Needle?

Anything templated as [COST] : [EFFECT].

So a Planeswalker's abilities would qualify?

Correct. Loyalty abilities are activated abilities templated as "Put/Remove N loyalty counters: Effect". Cost, colon, effect, that means it's activated and Needle can stop it.

If I play a Hostage Takers, exile a Ripjaw Raptor, then on my next turn cast the Raptor, my opponent uses Cancel to counter it, and I use Siren's Ruse to bounce my Hostage Takers, can I target the Raptor again, or would it be in their graveyard?

If flaring pain gets countered and goes into the grave, can I then cast it's flashback cost?

Yes, I love dropping a Pithing Needle naming Karn Liberated vs Tron

Well, if you're responding to Cancel, then it's on the stack, which is not a place where Hostage Taker can target things. If you do it after Cancel, it's in the graveyard, which is not a place where Hostage Taker can target things.

Sure.

So the Raptor wouldn't return to my opponent when I exile Hostage Takers? Or once I cast the Raptor is it no longer considered exiled.

>Or once I cast the Raptor is it no longer considered exiled.
Correct. It's not 'considered exiled' because it's literally no longer exiled. It's on the stack, because you cast it.

If I bounce something with Siren's Ruse in response to Hostage Takers targeting it does Hostage Takers effect fizzle?

It would, because even though you're still using the same piece of cardstock to represent both objects, they're totally different objects to the game.

Really new to magic. My friend goes to combat, I declare my blockers but before damage calculations he pumps them up with +1/+1 counters. Can he do this?

Yeah that's one of the basics of magic.

Bait someone to block thinking they're going to take a trade then boost your dude with a gigantic growth

Thanks. It made me quite annoyed because I didn't have anything to deal with it, but if it was legal I have to accept it

Absolutely. Combat tricks are 100% 'a thing'.

If they weren't, Trumpet Blast would be a really bad card.

With the new ruling about cards that give your opponent a choice you must confirm they choose to do nothing, if I get a creature pathed, a land ghost quartered, or something of mine is chain lightninged, can I call a judge and get my opponent a GRL if they don't ask me? Or what would happen if I called a judge on them for forgetting to remind me I have a choice?

If you know you have a choice, just announce what you're doing.

The new policy is basically just "you can't just ASSUME your opponent chose not to search, you have to confirm that they're choosing not to". If you know what the card does, you're probably going to be saying "I'm not searching".

If you know what the card does, and you know the rules, and you sit there silently to see whether or not your opponent 'reminds' you, I will be having a much more unpleasant talk with you than I will with your opponent.

Sorry, meant to say GRV* not GRL. Also, this is only for competitive REL, not FNM. More interested in salty wannabe pro players.

Okay, thanks. Still seems wrong to have the rule and not force people to conform with it though. I'm guessing they wouldn't get a GRV for pathing a new players creature and not reminding them they can get a land?

I've done this to Voltron before they started Voltron-ing. The salt was real. Hey gA, I know I can cast a Strive spell like Twinflame with no targets, but can Dualcaster Mage copy a Twinflame and have the new copy target dualcaster?

They would get a Warning for CPV, not GRV. They *might* get DQed if an investigation led me to believe it was intentional and they knew it was illegal.

Nope. It'll copy the number of targets, too, you can just pick new ones. If it was cast with zero targets, that's how many targets the copy has.

Had not heard of a CPV before. Thank you for your insight!

Happy to help! It doesn't come up a ton- there's a running joke in the Judge community of "If you think it's CPV, think again, because it's never CPV" because of how rare it's *actually* CPV.

Either way, I am now headed to bed. More thread tomorrow.

I saw this note on gatherer:
"Hostage Taker has received errata to prevent it from targeting itself. The correct Oracle wording appears above."
So does that mean if you were to play hostage taker on an empty board, he would exile himself over and over again forever with the old wording?

yes

If I discard two madness cards at the same time, can I cast both of them?

Is there any rule on what to do if a game goes into an infinite loop like that?

To build on that, what happens if there is a Hostage Taker on the board, with an exiled Hostage Taker, and someone plays Apocalypse, exiling everything?

Unbroken infinite loop means game's a draw.
If any player has the means to break the loop, they can do so after as many iterations as they want. Or sit on it and let the game draw, that's fine too.

I have a 2/2 Deadeye Tracker blocking a 2/2 Battlefield Scavenger, but before damage, I use his explore and graveyard some creature, thereby pumping it up to a 3/3 (before damage is added). Does Deadeye still die because it initially blocked as a 2/2?

THANKS JUDGE

Makes sense. Thanks

Doesn't matter what it is before damage. If it's a 3/3 at damage then it'll be a 3/3 with two damage marked on it.

Appreciate the help!

Then holy shit, use Deadeye Tracker, he's better than he looks.

Judge, is it just me or is the French Duel banlist committee fucking terrible?

The french are disqualified

Suppose I choose to use my Oath of the Druids trigger while my opponent has a Grafdigger's Cage in play. What happens to the revealed creature card? Does it go into my yard?

It stays on the top of your library.

Okay Galvanic, bear with me here. I've got Omnath, Locus of Mana on the field, I want to pump him up with my mana, then attack, then cast something with that mana on my second main phase.

But my opponent is sneaky, and knows that if he kills Omnath in combat I'll lose all that mana.

My understanding of the combat phases and steps is that after attackers and blockers are declared, I, the attacking player, get priority. Then, if I pass priority it goes to the defending player. Then, if he passes the game straight up goes to damage, no player has priority and no one can use the stack. Right?

But tapping for mana doesn't use the stack, right? And Omnath gets bigger as a state-based action, right? Is there a point after priority has been passed where I can pump up Omnath and hit his weak point for massive damage and also dodge removal?

They don't use the stack but you still have to have priority. So, no you can't.

Not a judge, but this is fairly straightforward:
First of all, there is an end of combat step after combat damage; even if you manage to hit your oppo with a massive Omnath, he can still kill it at that point, resulting in you losing the mana before your second main phase.
Second, while mana abilities do not use the stack, with a few exceptions (paying for mana leak and such) you can only use them when you have priority. So if oppo declares no blocks and you pass priority, then oppo can safely pass as well and take 1 damage since you don't get priority again to activate mana abilities. If you load up on mana before passing priority, your opponent still gets priority before damage and can use that chance to kill Omnath. Note that this is because you are the active player, and not the oppo "responding" to mana abilities.
If you were trying to use Omnath as a blocker for some fatty, things would work out in your favour as you get priority after your opponent, and mana abilities not using the stack means he doesn't get priority back after you take some special actions.

gA, do you have any comp ruling information to go with the twitter errata that was done to Mairsil? Sorry if this was already asked, but my buddy just got the deck and I really don't understand how he is supposed to work with quicksilver elemental.

Wait what twitter errata?

dang, but that does make sense

Dear GA

I know that regular REL doesn't really do penalties, but what should be done in the event where a "game loss" is the only thing that would be fair to the players? Situations like

A player accidentally shuffles his hand into his deck for no reason, and the hand was not public information.

In the middle of game 2 while up a game, he notices that his deck accidentally contains five hazoret.

Hurricane Irma destroyed my magic cards, 5 paper boxes full of cards going back to 7th.

Any chance you could spare some cards?

If you can email me for my address.

Not really relevant anymore as we've left amonkhet draft, buuuut:
>Opponent casts overwhelming splendor on me
>I cast apocalypse demon
What's the demons p/t and do I have to sac each up keep up keep him untapped?

Portent trigger or brainstorm on Opponents turn and reveals temporal mastery and I miracle. After their turn it goes my extra turn > my regular turn > their turn correct?

The first one of those you probably don’t need to issue a game loss - the guy just continues the game with no hand (assuming this wasn’t intentional for hazoret heckbent shenanigans or the like) and will likely lose the game in short order.

For the second, having an illegal deck like that, I think can get a game loss if you agree that it was a legit accident. Obviously the other fix of “replace with a basic land” is still applied.

It’s a 1/1, and no you do not. Overwhelming splendor overwrites the CDA because demon’s p/t is set in layer 7a and splendor resets it in 7b
That’s it exactly.

If I have Lich, Worship, and a creature on the board and I'm at - 24 life and take damage, would the "reduces my life to 1 instead" put my life total at 1? And would that be considered life gain and be replaced with card draws?

1. How does Mana Web interact with snow mana? If an opponent has a snow-covered plains and a snow-covered island, does he have to tap both of them?

2. If player A hits player B with a mindslaver, and then player B (under control of A) activates mindslaver on player C, who will control player C during his turn?

>mana abilities not using the stack means he doesn't get priority back after you take some special actions

I think this part is incorrect.

>116.4. If all players pass in succession (that is, if all players pass without taking any actions in between passing), the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves or, if the stack is empty, the phase or step ends.