So people keep saying that the Battlemaster is the way to go as a 5th edition Fighter.
I just don't seem to see why they're any good?
You get the chance, 4 times a day, to add +D8 to a roll or to damage in specific situations.
That's...just not very good? Which maneuvers are worthwhile, and why are they better than the inexhaustible improved critical and bonus athletics that a champion gets?
The Battlemaster isn't good, it's just the best of a bad bunch. 5e really needs a Tome of Battle equivalent to have some actually interesting to play martial characters available.
Eli Price
Champion IS better though, yeah. Passive shit it way better for a tank. Battlemasters use up their die in one fight.
Leo Ortiz
Battlemaster is good because it stacks well with feats like polearm and shield master, allowing one to control and abuse movement of their opponent while doing extra damage.
Chase Ramirez
Superiority dice refresh on a short or long rest. A short rest is only an hour.
You got your chance to tell Mearls to give martials interesting things during the playtest and keep the martial dice they could use to fuel their maneuvers. Not that it would have mattered, the surveys were apparently rigged in favor of keeping things "simple".
Gabriel Gutierrez
>Champion IS better though, yeah. Passive shit it way better for a tank. Battlemasters use up their die in one fight.
I think you're under appreciate the flexibility. While some of the ability are situationally, they make a big difference when they comes up and most still extra damage on top of whatever special effect.
I'm paraphrasing but according to math type apparently it takes like 90 rounds of combat for the average steady damage of the champion to equal equal to the battle master. Very few player go for amount of time without a break let alone the game characters.
Even if the regular damage overtime is higher for the champion it's not going to feel that way for the player. The battle master has more interesting options to do combat. Maneuver's create more memorable moments in game compared to simply wearing in the monster down over several rounds of combat.
Brody Howard
>4 times a day Per short rest. Meaning per hour.
John Collins
>4 times a day, to add +D8 to a roll or to damage in specific situations. Better than dealing +1d8 damage randomly with 5% chance, that's for sure.
Consider 6 fighting encounters with two short rest in between - the scenario game is balanced around. Lets assume average fight lasts 5 rounds. That is 30 rounds per day.
>3rd level >BM: average bonus damage is 12*4,5 = 54 damage
>5th level >BM: average bonus damage is still 54 >Champion: Average bonus damage is 3*weapon damage Champion get second attack doubling the damage output from his improved critical feature.
>11th level >BM: 5*3*d10 = 82,5 5 superiority dice, recovered twice. Dice change to d10. >Champion: 4,5 times his weapon damage. Champion get third attack, getting another 1,5 of his weapon damage die of extra damage.
Admittedly, champion has all features better except the 3rd level one. I think greatsword with appropriate fighting style does something between 8-9 damage on hit. Note, that a lot of maneuvers are triggered after you hit - meaning you can declare using it after you rolled that sweet natural 20. If the adventuring day is shorter than designated 6 encounters (which is pretty common), BM is even better. On the other hand, my calculation assumed absolute efficiency in using his superiority dice, which is rarely the case, though.
Wyatt Flores
>Battlemasters use up their die in one fight.
That's up to the battlemaster though.
The champion may never even get a crit.
Gavin Lopez
>Disarm an opponent with a magical weapon >Turn a missed power attack into a hit (you can declare Precision Strike AFTER missing your attack roll) >Draw opponent's aggro or else make them suffer attack disadvantage on everyone else?
Bruh... superiority dice fueling manuevers do ALOT more than just adding 1d8 damage. Did you even read what the manuevers do? Battlemaster maneuvers used well can turn the tide of a difficult encounter at just right the moment in just the way you need them to. This is what someone good at combat should be able to do.
Or you could just get a little extra damage every once in awhile with the most boring no-options archetype in the game that I'm pretty sure was meant to be a tutorial class. Your choice.
Adrian Bell
>Precision strike >Fear somethingsomething >Goading Strike (with a ranged/throwing weapon) >Trip attack (later on when you get extra attack) >Footwork something (great to save your squishy friend when a brute gets on top of him)
From the top of my head these three alone could last your whole career
Gabriel Moore
>the best of a bad bunch Eldritch Knights are a thing though.
Ian Fisher
Could you elaborate why do you think so? Their spells refreshing on long rest seems like serious disadvantage compared to BM's quickly recovering superiority dice.
Lucas Richardson
Not him but I haven't a cast on your INT stat is a serious disadvantage. You already need high con and Str/Dex.
It doesn't help INT is the least useful out of the three mental stats.
The thematically they are cool but they simply don't get enough spells to really justify the investment.
Sebastian Sanders
>Imply Eldritch Knight ever uses his spell slots for anything more than Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, and Haste.
Juan Carter
What DM allows for hourly short rests though? Based on what I've experienced, you'll get around 12 uses per session.
Wyatt Wood
Why would you ever pick spells that use your INT on a character with bad INT?
That's like saying fighters are underpowered because they only deal 1+STR damage with unarmed strikes and have 10+DEX AC if they don't wear armor
Chase Garcia
>more entitled whining from martial fucks This is how things are going to continue until wizards have nothing but at-will spells for piddling damage, a few shitty utilities, and nothing else, while fighters are literal gods who are immune to most wizard attacks. Martial players in 2017 are basically like black people: most of them weren't even around for the "persecution" that they claim to have suffered, and they demand ridiculous reparations in return for it. Most of them are weeaboos, which means they are human trash I wouldn't save from a car wreck if it had a winning lottery ticket in there, and they want D&D to be like the wuxia shit they jack off to all the time, and they try to pretend D&D is already a wuxia game due to 3.5 shenanigans and hit points bloat. Then if you tell them no they'll just call you a "caster supremacist" as if that's an argument, whine that the game isn't balanced when they chose a class whose stated purpose is fucking fighting (ever actually read the name of the class? FIGHTER?). Martial players' entitlement complex is unbelievable. They pretend Book of Nine Swords is an ideal outcome when all it did was make martials more complicated to play and still barely did anything to close the gap. Worse, it led to 4e which didn't even make fighters any better, it just made wizards worse and made everything into a bounded sterile MMO arena type game. Now wizards can actually do cool things again and people are getting salty over it. Just take away the wizard damage spells and give them back control/summoning, let fighter be the damage dealer and feel important. No wait he'll whine about summoning in these weird theory-crafted scenarios and use it as proof that "martials are still underpowered" when in fact they are the most privileged most sucked-off role in D&D.
Bentley Ward
Battlemaster is fun because you get to do cool techniques. Some of them let you add the d8 to-hit so you don't miss like a fag when you do your cool thing. Just do a long rest before the one-big-fight per session so you always have them.
Ethan Lewis
So what you're saying is, you didn't know them well enough to know that their main class feature recharges on a short rest, but you still wanted to waste everyone's time and weigh in on the matter, because you desperately need to feel like you belong?
Cooper Scott
That was an entertaining read! Brava!
Connor Hernandez
short rest even better
Jaxon Lewis
Fighters aren't tanks though, Barbs are. Fighters are DPR
Aaron Ross
You take the maneuver that lets you reroll your attack and the maneuver that lets you attack when the enemy misses. The rest are worthless trash, you're right, but the two I mentioned are fantastic.
Cameron Martin
This. I played a champion fighter for about one and a half year, and the lack of flexibility even with the shield master feat was staggeringly high. Also, not really rolling 19-20 to the point of it becoming an inside joke in the gruppe didn't help to make me happy about playing a champion.
Ethan Morris
...
Kayden Flores
Disarming is very good, you can use it to take away almost everything from your enemies, while also adding extra damage. Spellcasting foci, weapons, shields, take one away from an enemy boss, and you have turned the tide of battle. Trip attack let you have advantadge on your succesive attacks and a d8 extra damage. Precision lets you turn a miss into a hit. These last two are especially great with Great Weapon Master. You will deal a shitton of damage every round, even more so if you also get a polearm and the Polearm Master feat. And all of this ignoring combos like these: giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483585-Battle-Master-Tactics-Action-Maneuver-Feat-combinations&s=48bb6acff64d30d05546e599753f1942
Julian Ross
>Disarming is very good, you can use it to take away almost everything from your enemies You can't disarm claws, tails, etc. It's usefulness is strongly dependent on regularly facing humanoids
Grayson Garcia
Battlemaster isn't the best, but it is the most generally appealing when making a fairly standard martial character. Its active components make it more interesting than champion, and as much as I love eldritch knight, and would certainly argue they make the best fighter tanks (shield's a hell of a spell), they certainly aren't your average fighter and won't appeal to everyone.
Christian Morales
But Battlemaster is the most Fun™
Leo Edwards
And yet it still isn't very fun
Maybe fighters are just meant to be boring
Sebastian Turner
just say you chop off the arm/tail/whatever
Xavier Harris
They're not. They get to 'shine' with mediocre effects until they run out of their pittance of dice. If it wasn't for 3.0, I would call it the worst Fighter I've ever played.
Oliver Thompson
that's considerably different and good luck finding a dm that would let you do that
Jaxson White
makes sense i don't see why not
Grayson Wood
Isn't that shit an Athletics check?
Joseph Howard
An enemy can pick back up their disarmed weapon or draw a new one. They can't pick up their severed arm.
Oliver Carter
But...superiority dice refresh on a short rest.
Jeremiah Bailey
Which takes an hour. Do you know how hard it is to get an hour to yourself in a dungeon?
Liam Brown
...short rests are an assumed part of the game within reason as long as you aren’t playing with a rest variant extending short rests to a night’s sleep and long rests to a full week downtime activity.
And yes, I know how hard it is to take an hour rest in a dungeon or a sprawling cave complex. I’ve DM’ed it and punished players for not being cautious in taking them in specifically dangerous circumstances.
Jackson Martin
This varies so wildly between dms it's pointless to make an argument out of it
Ethan Barnes
Could you 'disarm' the penis on a naked opponent?
Daniel White
>disarm >opponent just picks up weapon next turn for free >trip >target just loses half movement speed to stand up which means nothing because you're already in melee
Wyatt Ortiz
>>opponent just picks up weapon next turn for free or you pick it up on your turn, or kick it away. >>target just loses half movement speed to stand up which means nothing because you're already in melee or you coordinate with your team so once he's down, you gangbang them with advantage on all melee attacks against them, or you can do it at range to delay them, or you slow them down because there's some objective people are trying to reach.
Isn't the meme that it's casters who have a hard time figuring out how to solve problems that they don't explicitly have solutions for? Because this makes it look like it's martials.
Jaxson Mitchell
Pro tip. Standing up is movement so it triggers Booming blade.
Brody Williams
I've tried to argue this and lost with my dm. Don't rely on it It's everyone, because D&D is designed by and for autists
Jackson Torres
Must be nice to have a DM that allows for that.
Tyler Williams
You can't coordinate because initiative is random and delayed turns don't exist anymore
Andrew Thomas
Wait what. How anally RAW has your GM to be to not allow such stuff? Plus picking up weapon is probably in the rules and the second thing with knockdown is just.... tactics, nothing special
Jose Wood
>you pick it up on your turn, or kick it away. I did this once. My DM had the enemy use their reaction to counter my kick.
Nathaniel Kelly
>delayed turns don't exist anymore Really? Jesus, 5e must be fucked
Isaac Collins
You can delay an action, which expends your action so you can take it later as a reaction. This does not change your initiative, and you can't make multiple weapon attacks iirc
Justin Evans
I once successfully argued with my DM that my fighter's tripping strike, which was a critical, took off a female pirates belt, and tangled her britches around her knees while she fought to get them back up again.
Cameron Perry
Then your DM is deliberately working outside of the rules to screw with you, and there's no class that's able to work around that.
William Lee
Every fight ends in like 2 turns so it doesn't really matter
Julian Wright
I have no idea what kind of fights you're getting in but every single one I've ever been in in 5E dragged out to 5+ rounds.
Parker Cox
Kicking weapons is working outside the rules. If you wanna go by RAW disarm is fairly useless. It will only work out if the DM is willing to work outside the rules, but only in your favor.
Julian Anderson
Yeah. They're all long slogs.
Kayden Barnes
Then I would guess you're either high level or your party has very bad damage output. Only fights I've had that last more than 4 rounds are boss battle shit vs dragons or something, and even some of those end quick because the boss rolled poorly.
Logan Robinson
How many opponents do you typically face in an encounter?
Dominic Bennett
Varies greatly. I'd say I've rarely fought more than 10, and usually fight around 3.
Hudson Thomas
Getting up should really trigger an opportunity attack. I don't know how it doesn't. People don't actually leap to their fucking feet. Doing so is always under the threat of engagement.
Picking up an action is "interacting with an object" which is an action as described on the PHB pg 193 and the box of example interactions on pg 190.
Tyler Davis
Your DM is a fucking asshole. If your initiative comes before he can act to pick up his shit you should be able to pick up his shit or kick it away.
Yeah once you learn about all the other systems that do it better you weep.
Now that I play Mythras, everything in DnD just sounds so fucking sad. A little bit of crunch up front but my god the combat is so much more satisfying and makes so much more intuitive sense.
Colton Bennett
>you can't coordinate >not choosing the order you go in means you can't coordinate
Angel Edwards
that's not how reactions work. on his turn, after you finish yours, and anybody else ahead of him. , does the movement require entry or exit of threatened area?
Juan Morgan
Using this thread because I don't think there's another 5th Ed thread up.
I'm playing a one shot soon at 5th level. We usually go combat heavy so everyone brings cool combat oriented builds. I'm looking for a powerful build, but there are a few stipulations.
We're playing without human variant, so we all branch out and don't have a party of humans for the 5th time in a row, and I'm also looking to be phys damage oriented.
What is unique dps builds that one wouldn't think of? I already know the basic feat builds of GWM, PAM, SS, and X-Bow Expert.
Dominic Robinson
>disable enemy >it takes it's turn and disabling ends >allies take their turns and dont benefit at all from your disabling Turn order is critical
Liam Lewis
Ah yes, because random means "enemy always goes after the one disabling it"
Brayden Ross
>enemy goes after only half the team acts >enemy goes before ally who would benefit the most acts >enemy's allies go before team acts, removing their ally's disability or preventing your allies from acting It was a worst case example you dummy. There are many ways initiative can fuck you. Being able to choose when a character acts alleviates many problems with trying to coordinate a team.
Now if only there were some class that could allow their allies to effectively act outside initiative order, maybe a martial leader type character; a kind of lord of war...
Jeremiah Morgan
What level you dingus
Isaac Young
>boohoo my ability does not get its optimal usage every time ; ;
Jesus Christ all of the things to whine about in D&D and you choose this shit
Ryder Jones
>I'm playing a one shot soon at 5th level
No, John, you are the dingus
Brandon Flores
Bump for the bait.
John Evans
What did he mean by this?
Levi Turner
Eldritch Knight is superior in long term games that go past 8th level at least. Depending on if you abandon Fighter and go straight Abjuration Wizard at 6th level.
Parker Diaz
It's a meme, you dip
Aaron Sanders
But with fewer attacks (and no surge) how can your damage stay on par ?
Matthew Martinez
Why would he have no surge?
Kayden Cooper
You're right, it should be >Fewer surge, fewer asi. Doubt on damage output still valid
Carter Wilson
These threads are not places where people happy to be martials go.
Carter Foster
He's clearly going the tank/mage killer route
Charles Wilson
Not Grappling them and just taking them away from their weapon after disarming.
Jonathan Johnson
My current dm made short rests a day and long rests a week. Really don't get into anything crazy more than twice a week but damn does our sorcerer hate his life most of the time.
Daniel Harris
Er uhh whoops Play Theurge Storm Wizard, be a regular wizard for the mook fights and then use channel divinity empowered Lightning Bolt on the boss for 48 damage
Matthew Turner
Stop.
Aiden Howard
I care so little for eldritch knight. Just going fighter/wizard multiclass is always better.
I like champion but battlemaster is also nifty,whatever you prefer to play as more is the right answer I just wish all fighters bonding to a weapon was a thing you know