I don't understand the obsession that Dungeons and Dragons and its various emulators have with making dragons "wizards...

I don't understand the obsession that Dungeons and Dragons and its various emulators have with making dragons "wizards." Dragons are dragons, they don't need to be any stronger or more amazing than that. Now, you can give them cool abilities, but why do they need to be spell casters too? It just seems to overplay and ruin the concept to me.

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If you haven't noticed from the huge caster/martial imbalance, D&D is made by magic fetishists who think magic should be the end-all-be-all unstoppable force. So of course the iconic creature for their game would be wizards, gotta shove that shit everywhere.

Goddammit. reply to my stupid thread about dragon wizards. Does no one have an opinion on this important issue? Is no one else up late at night and drunk enough to give a shit about this!?

Thank you! I love dragons, and I love dragon wizards, but does everything have to be dragon wizards!?

Dragons are rarely wizards, actually. Usually, they're sorcerers, and occasionally clerics to their divine forebears Bahamut, Tiamat, or Io the Ninefold Dragon. (All dragons are technically partial demigods for their descent from these.) For a dragon to actually study magic like a wizard is an abnormality.

However, not to dodge the actual point, they're sorcerers because they are intrinsically magical beings, with magic surging through their blood and fueling their every movement. If they didn't have magic, they'd just be winged dinosaurs.

Back in my day they were called spell-like abilities! Our dragons didn't plain cast spells, they just innately had the power to extend their will to make things happen!

Well, they can breath fire and hypnotize people. Maybe attack ethereal as well! Isn't that enough!

Still better than being wizards!

dragons should use swords

The whole Dragon mythology comes from the mythology of Sea Serpents which was essentially a god (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)#Chaoskampf .)

Dragons should therefore be chaotic-neutral.

If they can study magic, why shouldn't they?
(provided they have no daddy issues at this question)

DnD fucked up and made casters way too powerful, so it became an arms race. Now, wizardragons

Reminder in myths of varios cultures, mystical creatures usually are wizards as well, so it's not that silly to give monster class levels - for example I had boar who had druid spells coming from a cursed elf skull that controlled it.

I like totally spell-less Dragons as well. They are already huge creatures with scaly armor and tons of health, claws and teeth, fire breath and the power to fly. They are already super powerful- but the thing is you don't want to give them magic too because it spoils the soup. You want dragons to be strong, but still beatable. God powered Pathfinder style dragons are bad for your setting's immersion; they have too many abilities, to much baggage, and they are too big. Dragons should be able to be seriously threatened by a group of knights sent by the local lords, which is why it steals away princesses instead of just crushing the castle with a huge claw.

Now that doesn't mean dragons can't have knowledge of magic, or have access to it via lesser monsters who serve them, but not themselves.

So I agree with you OP. Rant over.

>but the thing is you don't want to give them magic too because it spoils the soup. You want dragons to be strong, but still beatable. God powered Pathfinder style dragons are bad for your setting's immersion; they have too many abilities, to much baggage, and they are too big. Dragons should be able to be seriously threatened by a group of knights sent by the local lords, which is why it steals away princesses instead of just crushing the castle with a huge claw.

>If you agree with someone you are sheep

Because there are different versions of literally everything. You like dragons as animals, mindless force of nature style destruction? Fine. But dragons can also be mysterious, incomprehensible and constantly scheming motherfuckers. Can also be awesome if done right, just look at shit that isn't dnd for once. Smart dragons work for Shadowrun, for Wizard of Earthsea, for Tolkien. Hell, Andrzej Sapowskis books had both types of dragon, also good shit.

I like it when settings have very diverse dragons. Everything from "dumb flying lizard" to "master shapeshifting manipulator" to "dragon whose intelligence no longer allows him to ignore magic."

Drop the persecution and look closer.

What good is a dragon like that? If the local lord and his knights can take a dragon down reliably, what need is there for a hero? In fact, how can dragons exist at all or even have servants to begin with if they are so weak and also outnumbered? There would be no place for them in such a setting, they would be wiped out.

>If they can study magic, why shouldn't they?

that's the problem with having magic as something you can just study, pretty much everyone with a decent lifespan should be at least a mid-level wizard.

Dragons have had the ability to cast spells since the very beginning, with the core little brown books of OD&D.

Gygax was apparently initially mystified that anybody would want to play a wizard.

Can anyone think of a setting where dragons are played as their actual size, ferocity, and natural weapons would allow? Think a mouseguard versus an especially extra dangerous tiger.

It's against the game because you would be hopelessly outmatched in all capacities. So if you're going to make them slow and lumbering, might as well a little magic to make them still dangerous.

>current year
>bane posting
Why do you do this user?

Guild wars?

>that's the problem with having computers as something you can just study, pretty much everyone with a decent lifespan should be at least a mid-level programmer.

not the same, being a decent mage gives you considerable personal power and is useful in virtually any situation. being a decent programmer gives you an alright job and maybe you don't need to phone tech support when you have a computer problem.