Can we discuss in a civilised way the use of x-cards and line n' veils? My current DM introduced me to both of these concepts.
So far I think that line and veils should be in every campaign, really useful to make everyone feel comfortable and safe. X-cards seem like a cheap substitution to talking but my DM and one player have ptsd so I understand the use of them in my context.
What do you guys think of these tools?
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What the fuck are x cards?
Trying to stay civil you say:
In my 20 years of gaming, I've always tried to play with friends. There were a few occasions when this didn't happen, like cons and pick-up games, but those were the minority in the total of my experience.
Playing with friends, there are things that from time to time had to be discussed becuase potentially discomforting or inappropriate. Discussion is positive, and respect of people close to you is too.
"Lines and veils" is just what the Forge does, attaching a bit of jargon to something very basic and make it a Big Deal™. If you want to call "being a decent person" with a funny name, feel free. Don't see the need though.
With X-cards it's more or less the same. They can have a purpose in a setting like a con, where you sit down with strangers and don't want to derail the game with your personal shit put in public. There should be no need for anything like that at your home, with your friends.
Having typed all this, though, it's made me think. I don't care for either because, in truth, they don't touch me or what happens at my table. Both are signs of an over-sensitized population though.
I only accept the use of x cards if the person announces it like they're in Yu-Gi-Oh
...
My group is not close friends playing a game so tools like this are useful even though is not a convention.
Table top roleplaying involves sitting around a table, talking and rolling dice. The sharpest thing in reach is usually a pencil. If someone would feel unsafe in such a setting, they have problems more serious than can be addressed by some nope-card.
>The sharpest thing in reach is usually a pencil. If someone would feel unsafe in such a setting, they have problems more serious than can be addressed by some nope-card.
You don't need sharp things to make something unsafe. Men can be very intimidating.
If someone is 100 pounds and half a foot bigger than you, then his presence alone can be intimidating, especially if he is mad or starts describing what he wants to do to your character.
That would literally be a description of make believe things happening to make believe people in a make believe world.
If you feel intimidated by that, as I said, you have bigger problems
So if someone who is much taller and heavier than you starts describing how he is touching you and the things he wants to do while he is sitting next to you, you'd feel safe?
You are not your character
He is not his character
The things that characters do and the things that are done to them does not actually happen
The answer to your question is yes, and if you would feel unsafe, you should visit a psychiatrist
WTF is line and veils?
I hate trigger warnings and I hate people who can't separate reality from fantasy. Does the hobby seriously need a "STOP TRIGGERING ME" card?
If you're unable to function around 50% of the human race, you need more help than an index card with an "X" on it can provide.
And this is why 90% of populations have locked their women away in special parts of the house and never let them out.
If you're so weak willed that a fat neckbeard with no social skills and a set of dice intimidate you, then you need to go live with your parents until they find a suitable mate to marry you off to, because you clearly are not mature enough to live in the world with the rest of us.
it appears to be a fancy was of saying "censoring stories, trigger warnings, and rape whistles"
basically a player tells the dm and everyone "these are the lines I will not have crossed in the story or play for X reasons. You need to tell me right now if these things are in here and then remove them. And I get a special card I can raise up to tell anyone and everyone that you've crossed MY line and to stop play instantly and focus on me until I feel like I'm in a safe space again.
What kind of arcane fuckery are you talking about?
Sounds like some kind of faggot shit.
see
"My campaign will infact include X. If that is not too your liking, you are free to leave."
My knee-jerk reaction is to discard the idea as unnecessary for my gaming group, as we are all close friends, and I am empathetic enough to spot when someone is discomforted.
But then...
I remember I have a good friend who is very sensitive, and while he tries hard to roleplay through the situation, it may leave him off-kilter IRL the next day.
And I have had situations where a player does something that goes far outside the intended tone or themes of the story, and it taints the story going forward, making it feel inconsistent.
And there is one player who caused so much trouble regarding mental influence powers that I now address the issue directly whenever starting a new campaign.
So while none of my players are the sort to throw some sort of fit, or to intentionally cause distress to each other, sometimes shit happens. I think I'll start working in a few soft lines, in the future.
Here's a cat, since that got serious.
This is reasonable, but I don't like the idea of having cards for it. Nobody likes a sudden veto in the middle of play, talking about it beforehand is more convenient. If a player decides to ignore that agreement, then that player a) wouldn't have cared about the card either and b) is getting straight into the shitlist of the rest of the group.
If a group makes you uncomfortable so frequently that you need to have cards for it, you probably shouldn't play it that group anyway. Either they're so shit that you're better off without them, or you're so easily rattled that you'll detract from their experience and should be removed for their benefit.
Based on this explanation, I think it's probably a good thing that this exists as a "known tool" that people can use in their groups if desired. Being more inclusive is a good thing and if this helps even one person start RPing then it's been beneficial. That said there's no way in hell I'd ever use anything like this or play in any group that did. I think everyone should enjoy tabletop gaming but even so I reserve the right not to enjoy it with people that are too fragile, it's best for both of us since it may end in a bad experience all around.
Things can be good and not at all silly without you needing to incorporate them into their own life. I'm lucky enough to not be in a situation where something like a rape joke would ever bother me, in fact they're usually hilarious. Even so it's obvious that people who can't handle that exist and they should be able to have shitty games so they can come post about how shitty the other players were just like the rest of us.
Saying something like "I'm not comfortable with X topic, do you expect it to be in your setting?" before the first session is the reasonable person thing to do.
Raising a card up and blowing your rape whistle in the middle of a session is and expect people to mind read what you got pissy about is not a reasonable person thing to do.
I have generally found that playing with people with severe emotional instabilities and "triggers" is just not worth it.
I once played a pacifist beguiler in a 3.5 game with the intent of mind-controlling and hypnotizing fuckers left and right, little did I know that this exact and particular sort of thing makes the DM herself freak the fuck out and lose her shit.
And that's why I never got to play my Esteban Winsmore expy for more than one session.
your DM is a giant faggot
>x cards
I had to look up what this is and it seems to be basically triggers?
In that case.....TALK TO THE GM
As I GM I will straight up ban certain things and topics, not always from personal issue but from experience in how it can ruin a game or be a personal issue for others. For example; Sexual themes too much beyond a certain point (Ok, you fucked, no one needs or wants details), contemporary politics (almost purely OOT, take that shit outside and don't fuck my game up. I don't care what side you're taking, I spent a lot of time on this so shut the fuck up), and extreme levels of violence (which, like most of these, basically gets taken to around what I personally feel is enough or when another player earnestly asks me other another to cool it down, whichever comes first)
Part of being the GM is handling these kinds of issues. You're "running" the game and often kind of the leader of a gaming group as a result. Moreover, if you have an issue so strong to you that you feel the need for a card(s) to play and instantly try and defuse that is something so serious you should probably just mention it to the group or in private to the GM before the game so there's not some big confrontation when someone suddenly takes things too far with or without knowing. People have their baggage and shit they don't want to bring into games.
If someone in my group feels unsafe or uncomfortable around another player or about a situation in game I want to know that shit BEFORE it comes up for obvious reasons. If it's the game I can probably alter things pretty easily without much issue to avoid a specific issue so long as it's reasonable and not something like "I don't like when people die, it disturbs me". You joined a Only War game, the bad decision here is purely on you.
If it's another player, then fuck, I can handle these assholes. You'd think I'd let them in my home 6 hours a week if I felt helpless against any of them? I've got my own baggage.
It really wouldn't be a Veeky Forums thread without posters who miss the subtleties of social scenarios. People in these hobbies get stereotypes for a reason.
I totally get that creepy attention from someone who's supposed to be playing a game WITH you can be very uncomfortable. However, I don't think x-cards are the answer to that. As others have said, this isn't the kind of person to respect them. If you speak up and ask them to stop and the rest of the group doens't back you up, they're not the kind that would have used x-cards to begin with either. So I guess that unfortunately it depends on the people you play with more than the paraphernalia involved.
If you have issues that make you so uncomfortable you it's difficult to explain them when they come up, they really are things you need to bring up with your DM beforehand. Other than not including those themes, they can also intervene when other players bring them up and/or they see your discomfort.
There are challenges in any sort of social situation with strangers. I'm not trying to say "this is how it is, deal with it" because obviously everybody could be helping to make hobbies more welcoming. But sometimes people do need to be prompted to help.
>inb4 I'm a white-knighting faggot for having social awareness
Every time this comes up on Veeky Forums we get the same response.
X cards aren't meant for groups that will meet regularly. They're a tool for convention play and one-shot style events, where you don't know people, and they either don't have time or don't feel comfortable listing in advance all the stuff they're not OK with.
A regular group? You deal with that shit the way it's best dealt with: Talking to people, or getting them the fuck out if they're just incompatible for whatever reason.
The whole x-card deal is a great way of letting people opt out of stuff they dislike when there is an explicit lack of foreplanning for their dislikes. That's it. It's a quick and dirty way to move on when you're running a con game or something.
i am eternally convinced that any mention of X-cards on this board is an attempt to push them as a 'thing'. Fuck this garbage. Even for a con game this is stupid shit.
If you personally need X-cards at a game in order to not fall apart inside, get lost. I have no compassion for you.
>I have no compassion for you.
A fa/tg/uy having no compassion? What a shocker.
You can disagree with someone without dismissing them.
do you use X-cards?
Of course not, they're pointless. But that's not a reason to "have no compassion" for those who do want them; I'm not going to let them use them at my table, but they clearly have trouble handling some subjects and maybe I can accommodate them some other way.
>Lines and veils
Okay, that seems fine. In fact, I pretty much already implement them in one form or another when I GM games.
> Line: Your character will never be tortured/raped. Doesn't matter whether it makes sense, doesn't matter the context -- your character doesn't get tortured or raped unless that's explicitly what you ask to happen to him/her. And I will never, ever suggest or imply that that's what should happen.
> Veil: Sex happens offscreen. No, I won't describe the brothel-girl's tit's. No, I'm not a prude, but I'm limiting my exposure to your magical realm. It's window dressing that's up to your imagination.
X-cards can fuck right off, though.
They need to figure their shit out before coming to the table. Just like how people need to shower and shave before a social interaction, they need to not break down confronted with a game of makebelieve.
This still basically just takes going up to the GM before a Con game and going
"Hey, I'm not too cool with rape stuff. You mind just putting a kibosh on that?"
I've never done a Con game or I guess true one-shot-and-leave game, so I'm probably not a good example there, but in a highly public setting like a con you can probably just leave or expect some level of oversight and otherwise having at least SOME contact and discussion with the GM before the game is a highly important part of things. Otherwise you're just showing up to some place and hoping for the best for 6 hours with 3-6 strangers and that sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Not really shitting on the concept, I guess, just calling it a bad substitute for basic communication and social mores.
Is that what lines and veils are? That seems pretty reasonable. I basically use the same rules as you, more or less. They should probably be the default rules for most groups unless people explicitly agree to change them.
Some people with issues/trauma see a therapist regularly and are getting better. If you don't want to play with them until they're completely okay, that's your prerogative and I won't judge you based on that. But I'm willing to be more accommodating because I think people who are already struggling shouldn't be cut off from the things that make them feel better.
>I think people who are already struggling shouldn't be cut off from the things that make them feel better.
Their tabletop group is not their therapy group.
On the other hand, I wonder what sort of psycho would set up a con game for strangers, and have it feature fucked-up shit like graphic descriptions of tape and torture.
But I think it's not too hard to imagine the typical neckbeard autist going "hurr I rape the elf" even when playing with strangers; this thread shows that there's people in the hobby who just don't fucking care about those sitting at their table.
I would tell them to just knock it off, but not everybody is comfortable with that.
>Description of Tape.
But maybe they are his friends?
Is basic decency such a hard concept to grasp?
>I know your dad was stabbed yesterday, but the game about stabbing Olympics is already written, so either suck it up or GTFO
There doesn't even need to be therapy-demanding trauma involved. Maybe someone's brother killed themselves and they'd just prefer not to have suicide come up if possible. I write my own adventures, it's not like it's that much effort not to have suicide in them.
Why does it bother you so much that I'm willing to accommodate people that you'd rather not play with?
*touches the x-card*
???
Your resistance just increases my number
>I know your dad was stabbed yesterday
at that point i think you might have bigger priorities than playing games.
You have no idea what I went through.
I'm still sticky.
They cant Un-tape you!
Are you playing a game with randos?
If not, then look at your GM curiously and ask "what's up, dude?"
How do you know everyone's priorities so well?
Maybe all arrangements are taken care of, the funeral's not until next week, their family isn't arriving until Tuesday, and they're looking for a distraction and the company of their friends. I don't think that's a stretch of the imagination.
>And there is one player who caused so much trouble regarding mental influence powers that I now address the issue directly whenever starting a new campaign.
Given the topic at hand I feel like there's some very strong understatement in this line.
> if you would feel unsafe, you should visit a psychiatrist
Genius, it's not about the separation between you and your character.
It's the trust you have with the people at your table.
unless it was premeditated i don't think you can get that done in one day
Go back to /a/
>these are the lines I will not have crossed in the story or play for X reasons
Why the flying fuck is this a problem?
Then they need to get the fuck over it. If someone gets pissy about me stabbing an orc baby to death because of some real-life shit that they can't leave at home, that's not my fucking problem, it's theirs.
Exactly. If descriptions of make believe things make you think that the people you play with would actually jump you right then and there, seek help.
>Being more inclusive is a good thing and if this helps even one person start RPing then it's been beneficial.
Absolutely wrong.
Being inclusive typically is only pointed in a few directions and isn't open for everyone. For example, I don't think anyone is going to be overly "inclusive" to a white supremacist player. Selective inclusivity is nothing more than prejudice for or against certain people. And given those who champion inclusivity the most, they're not going to be very tolerant of certain things at the table which have long been traditions of tabletop gaming.
So for instance, if you have a player show up and their lines are "sexual and demeaning depictions of women," well you can just flat out dump a ton of stuff. no more boobplate. no more skimpy armor. don't make her too attractive, that's just your dick talking. better put all female characters in burka or else it's too lewd and the X card flies up in the air and you get to deal with an hour's worth of "triggered." And that's just one of a thousand combinations of problems.
And no, if this gets just one person to get into rpgs it is not worth it. We've all had players who managed to derail and ruin the game for any number of reasons. We've all had "That Guy," at our table. All this does is going to create a new wave of "That Guys" who are even worse because "omg that triggered me."
Been there. The evening of the day after my dad died was just a lot of waffling about. Most of the stuff was actually done on the next two days.
Then again, I'm not American, don't know how it works for you.
It's one player demanding that everyone else cater to them at any time, for any reason. Why wouldn't it be a problem?
Okay, so if your player asks you not to include child rape, he's a nutso and should go hang. Gotcha
oh you're not a white knighting faggot. you're just an enabler who insists that the people who need professional help are perfectly fine, it's everyone else who is a problem.
>"Oh no girl, it's okay that being within 30 feet of a man playing a game with tiny toys and dice sends you into a panic attack. You certainly don't need help. He needs to stop being a shit lord who triggers you."
I'm a fairly shy guy, I guess, but I don't deal with that shit. I've got probably too much experience from Tabletop telling weird fucks to chill out to play around anymore, so I guess I'll give my own personal tips on that front.
1: Don't escalate. Unless it's incredibly serious try to keep any problem or inter-party issue calm and casual. Don't suddenly get pissed and start shouting, as GM people are going to naturally gravitate towards you being the voice of reason and authority in most groups. Not always, but often. Keep an even tone and casual speech and avoid making things a "You vs Him" situation.
2: Intervene early, intervene often. The sooner you take control of a tense situation, the more power you'll have within it. The second you notice someone going to far or another playing getting really uncomfortable then step in with Rule 1 and diffuse things before they blow up into something bigger. Don't stop the game dead at ever argument, but when things are clearly getting heated step in and take control.
3: Isolate. Identify the issue or person and isolate it. Talk IN PRIVATE and figure out who or what is causing the problem and seek to deal with it involving as few people as possible. Yes, it's a group of (probably) adults, but the more people involved the bigger the mess. A minor issue between two players doesn't always need the whole group weighting in and arguing.
4: Be Honest. Don't sugar coat anything, but don't be a dick. If someone's being creepy just say "Hey, man, that's kinda creepy, could you not?". People are more willing to back down the less time they have to get invested in an idea or fight, hence Rule 2.
Sorry if this seems control freaky, but it's what I've build as my personal code over the years of GMing. Adapt it to your own style and group as you see fit and feel free to add more, this is just kinda the cliff notes.
accommodate all you want, but them bringing their shit to the table is disrespectful to the group. If they cant play that day, they are free to take the day off, the game will just happen again next week and everyone will understand.
Yes, we understand that you're an asshole, but you don't have to strawman while you're at it.
That does seem to literally be the prevailing opinion. Welcome to Veeky Forums.
harshly put, but true.
At the kinds of places this is being suggested for (i.e. public con games) this is not going to be an issue because the con will already have banned 95% of this behavior. In which case it's pointless. And if you're so weak emotionally and mentally that you can't even handle that without a "safe space" card then you do not need to be in that situation, you need to be talking to a professional or picking a different hobby.
>Welcome to Veeky Forums
Fixed that little mistake for ya. You know where the door is.
>you're just an enabler who insists that the people who need professional help are perfectly fine
See . You're making assumptions that make me seem foolish because it helps your established viewpoint but that's a disingenuous way to have a debate.
Their brother will not have not killed themselves by next week. I don't understand why the concept of avoiding one or two sensitive subjects is so controversial around here.
No, most of Veeky Forums is just edgy. Fa/tg/uys actually have social issues up to and including being on the spectrum.
Maybe because nobody else is bothered and don't feel that they should have to tiptoe around one oversensitive person?
Ok, then that group doesn't need to play with that person. Why does it bother you that I am willing to?
/k/ sticks bolt handles up their asses and eat cum brownies. Veeky Forums makes sundae ramen. /out/ fucks animals. So does /k/, but they're not quite as into it.
Veeky Forums is actually TAMER than most boards. Mainly thanks to pansies ruining fun for everyone else, but hey, when you're a popular, fast board, you have to roll with the normalfags.
>Is that what lines and veils are? That seems pretty reasonable.
That's what lines and veils are marketed as. How they'll work in reality will be far different.
You think you're saying "okay, no rape, sex is off screen." But what you'll get is going to end up more like this:
>Why are all the women in your campain "hot?"
>why the hell are all your women dressed like sluts?
>god, that male npc is such a creep, i feel assaulted
>look, i know X happening is crucial to the plot, but it triggers this thing I have from way back when and I can't handle it, so you need to re-write it
>does his model have to be a slutty elf that objectivies women?
>does he have to play a female character? what can a man know about how to be a woman.
>does he have to play his character like a slut?
>does she have to play her character like a slut?
>why are all these female mini's so sexist? God it's so rapey the way you put your hands on them and objectify women.
>my character's pronouns are Xer, why aren't you using them!!!!
>build your own here
It doesn't. I wouldn't. Why does it bother you that I'm not willing to put up with their shit?
FUCKING TRIGGERED!!!
This is honestly the dumbest shit I've have then misfortune of looking up.
The whole damned thing is a flawed and ignorant reaction. Basically the concept says that those around you can't be trusted to follow the customs of civilized behavior and rules of conduct so more customs and rules are needed. Because somehow, magically, these new customs and rules will be followed because they got put on a card. It's deflecting ones own social inadequacies by jumping on those of others. It's the sort of ignorant tripe that leads to throwing a pinch of spilled salt over your left shoulder.
>>I know your dad was stabbed yesterday, but the game about stabbing Olympics is already written, so either suck it up or GTFO
I'm pretty sure most guys wouldn't be so incapable of separating fantasy from reality that this would actually be a problem.
On the other hand, not canceling game night to all go out and get him drunk and help him grieve is a slightly dick move.
Somebody that doesn't have a filter on their fetishes or overdescription of violence on someone else's "Toy" (for lack of a better way to convey ownership of a character) in public is more likely to lack other forms of self control as well. You have a point that an X-card is unlikely to be a solution to any such conflict of opinion, but you're a little too dismissive of the Neckbeards-Without-Boundries issue.
I don't understand, does rape, suicide, and other uncomfortable topics occur often in people's campaigns that warrant the need for these "tools". I have been playing for a good while now and i haven't come across anything that wasn't expected
exactly. We are all fucked up, but our goal should be, at all times, to not seem fucked up around others. Both those who put super edgy shit in their campaigns and those who need X-cards are examples of those who cant keep their spagetti from spilling.
>those around you can't be trusted to follow the customs of civilized behavior and rules of conduct
A good thing to assume around PnP nerds
idk, why is the Sisters of Battle having Boobplate a problem? why are sexy elves and women in fantasy a problem? why are any of the issues thousands of moral fags have screamed at our games about a problem?
>user, I'm a devout feminist, please remove these sexist depictions of women!
>user, I'm a devout Christian, please remove all references to demons and magic!
SCOTCH'D
>the Neckbeards-Without-Boundries issue
It really doesn't exist outside of Veeky Forums and conventions, and con-goers deserve whatever they get.
>user, I'm a devout fetishist, please add more of these sexist depictions of women!
It's invisible! You can't even see it coming!
Taped by a ghost.
Then I guess I don't understand the concept. Doesn't just the DM set the rules?
You don't get to turn this around. I never said everyone needs to be accommodating. In fact, I specifically said, multiple times, that people can choose not to be accommodating.
If we're not in disagreement I guess that's that.
It's a shame Neck is Cou in french, so there's no way to make that NSF Neckbeards-Sans-Frontiers
In what way is the solution more rules and customs then? Instead take the high ground. Give exactly one polite request or warning, which of those depends on how severely over the line the behavior was, then either leave or make the offender leave.
It's really that simple. If others aren't held responsible nobody should be surprised when they don't act responsibly.
>If we're not in disagreement I guess that's that.
Agreed. Eat shit and fuck you.
Cordially,
user.
Neckbeard is a neologism, so it would presumably be adapted to French as is
That's a lot of slippery slope bullshit. If the players would keep on testing my patience after the initial rules have been set, I'd kick the offenders out or end the game if they're the majority
>Somebody that doesn't have a filter on their fetishes or overdescription of violence on someone else's "Toy" (for lack of a better way to convey ownership of a character) in public is more likely to lack other forms of self control as well.
Oh no, X user happens to like BDSM and is open about it. It also influences his character to greater or lesser degrees. That obviously means that he is going to tie up that tiny little girl across the table and whip her until she begs to be his sex slave! I saw it in a hentai once, and that's exactly going to happen!!!!
I have played games filled with murder hobos. Never once did I think any of them were actually about to go out and murder hobo in real life. It's called fantasy. It is make believe. Get Over It.
Take your moral faggotry and get the hell out.
Fug
It helps with the bdsm
Turns "no, no, no" into "mmm, mmm, mmm".
>That obviously means that he is going to tie up that tiny little girl across the table and whip her until she begs to be his sex slave!
Not unless she asks me to.
>Then I guess I don't understand the concept. Doesn't just the DM set the rules?
In this case...no. Basically the player with the triggers gets to set up "lines and veils" that the DM has to obey, and at any time the triggered player can raise up their X card and put a stop to whatever is going on.
Instead of the DM saying "Okay, I'm not going to have rape in my story," it's the player saying "Okay, you're not going to have rape in your story. In fact, not only are you not going to have rape, you're not even going to have sex. In fact, it's a good idea not to have anything overtly sexual in the game at all because I can't handle it"
But as the DM, maybe you were going to do a hard political fantasy campain like Game of Thrones. Super gritty and dark. Well shit, now there's no rape, now there's no sex, and a bunch of your notes and important events hinged on that happening a couple times. Welp, now the causes are gone, so how the hell do you get to the effects? And all the other players, who were looking forwards to a GOT style game, now get to deal with a story more akin to the hobbit. And maybe a player or two have to switch their characters because they violate the "lines and veils." Well now you're not only ruining the story, you're ruining other people's characters.
Now the person isn't the player, they're the editor and censor who gets to dictate what the DM can write and what the other players can play.