/osrg/ Old School Renaissance General: Extraplanar Edition

>Trove:
pastebin.com/raw/QWyBuJxd

>Online Tools:
pastebin.com/raw/KKeE3etp

>Blogosphere:
pastebin.com/raw/ZwUBVq8L

>Previous Thread:

>Thread Question
How much room is there for extraplanar adventuring in OSR?

To a beginner, what would you qualify the actual 'gameplay' of the OSR genre of tabletop games to be?

Is it the resource management? Character management? The (barebones) combat system? Exploration via interrogation and guidance by the referee?

I'd say the biggest qualifier is emergent rather than planned events. As far as interrogation and guidance goes, that's important but people who pixel bitch everything in a dungeon when things like detect hidden doors exist in the game are kind assholes.

>How much room is there for extraplanar adventuring in OSR?
A bunch. You don't even have to be high level.

>To a beginner, what would you qualify the actual 'gameplay' of the OSR genre of tabletop games to be?
Sneaking through a "dungeon" (place with clearly defined rooms and passages), seeking "treasure" (things that let you advance) and trying not to "die" (lose).

yeah, I think this guy has the right of it. That's why gp=xp is such an important mechanic. The game has very clear gameplay based goals and everything is designed with it being a game in mind.

Exploration and mapping is the heart and soul of old school. If you handwave exploration and the mechanics related to it, you're suddenly playing a 5e plot railroad game.

I would suggest one of these is a lot more important than the other, though.

Mapping is a part of OSR gameplay that's really a matter of taste. Some people like the idea of meticulously drawing out dungeon environments and everything that entails (e.g. players finding secret rooms by noting conspicuous blank spots in their mapping, etc.). Some people don't want to bother with that sort of thing. Neither is wrong. Neither is required. You can explore an environment just fine with only a crudely sketch memory aid, or none at all.

Exploration is incredibly important, though—as well as all the subsystems tied up in it. The challenge of managing resources (time, spells, HP, tools, etc.) that are consumed by exploration is obviously central to OSR gameplay, and I think the ephemeral rewards of exploration (discovery, knowledge about the world, the change to master your environment and turn it against your enemies, etc.) can be a big part of the fun of OSR gameplay. All of this is totally possible without highly detailed map-making.

>Exploration is incredibly important, though—as well as all the subsystems tied up in it.
The thing is you simply can't have an interesting exploration unless you require players to map their delves. It's up to them how accurate they want their maps to be, but the actual map at the table has to be drawn by the players.

That's the single most effective way to make players feel they're really in the driver's seat making choices and also withstanding the consequences of their own choices. There is really no reason why the DM should draw the exploration map for players. That won't benefit anyone and the DM already has all the work to do while running the game.

I really argue that player mapping is actually an essential part of old school D&D gaming.

Plenty. BECMI/RC prescribes planar travel for instant unexplained dungeons.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think the DM should be drawing out maps for the players either. But I think it should be up to them whether or not they want to buy into the mapping mini-game.

I know I, personally, would find it terribly un-fun to map out a dungeon delve in detail at the table, so I don't require it of my players. I do suggest that making a simple diagram of the space will help them (even if its just a circle with a short, descriptive name in it for each room, and lines showing the connections between rooms), but if they really don't want to map at all (and whether or not that makes it harder for them to navigate the dungeon) is their prerogative.

I've never felt it was an essential part of playing the game.

Procedural resource management-based exploration mixed with challenge-based "player skill" problem solving.

Compatibility with TSR's D&D modules.
The things you're getting at are important - but are common to other games from the same time.

>the gameplay is compatibility

The gameplay has compatibility. Quit being flippant.

No, the rules has compatibility.

>Positive material plane
>Negative material plane
Can anyone explain this? I'm only familiar with the newer comology where the + and - planes are basically elemental.

It's the same shit.
One important thing to note, relative to newer cosmologies:
You could mistake the elemental planes for normal settings if everything wasn't made of clouds (etc).

Ran my first game last week, we had a blast. One of my players described it as "4 person nethack"

I didn't have everything prepared, so I just made some stuff up on the spot. The players came up with some pretty creative solutions to situations. They lured a bunch of skeletons into a pit trap where the walls close in on you.

But that's how I play 5e, am I doing something wrong? I used to play 2e and now I am DMing a campaign of 2e and it feels like a very similar game, the difference is that dying is harder now because of the death saving throws.

campaign of 5e*

obviously

Do you keep strict time records?

Yes, a calendar, time passed in the dungeon, everything.

2e is modern D&D

Try again

>But that's how I play 5e
Say this on /5eg/ and hear them autistic screeching

That's only true for Basic. AD&D's the "endless water/fire/dirt/air" style. Planescape then implies that the presence of things that aren't the given element are due to contamination by the Prime/Outer Planes stuff

5e has bullshit utility spells like familiar and Leomund's Tiny Hut ritual. Those two spells alone make pretty much everything trivial. It's a shitty game.

Cool meme.

But that's wrong. 2e is a transitional system capable of operating in either mode.

Well, then you might just have a better time playing OSR games.

Gonna run my first DCC game. Any tips?

2e handles S&S fine.
For real though: this.

Very rarely use the roll against target DC mechanic for anything. Useless dice rolling is boring. I.e. play the game as if it's an OSR game instead of a D20 game.

Don't be afraid of doing rulings instead of looking up tables if it slows the game down.
Keep track of the numbers required for the various levels of each magic spell.
Let the players have some fun when their characters die. Don't be cold.

If you gave the minimum sufficient descriptions for everything (labels, mostly), how long would it take your players to realize you set the campaign in the plane of water?

Familiar was shot by a crossbow in the very beginning of a dungeon because they used to explore, there was an ambush in the next room which they avoided but lost it and they do not have access to Leomund's yet (also I do not think is such a big deal).

Why? I genuinely don't get it. Am I seriously playing this game wrong?

Now thinking about it, the other guy who played 2e likes how I'm running it, the new guy too, the only complain I've heard is from the 5e/PF veteran who was getting frustrated when I told him that no when he wanted to resolve the puzzle using an intelligence check, wtf, what is the point of the game if you use your fucking sheet to resolve stuff like that.

>I've heard is from the 5e/PF veteran who was getting frustrated when I told him that no when he wanted to resolve the puzzle using an intelligence check, wtf, what is the point of the game if you use your fucking sheet to resolve stuff like that.

I've had the opposite happen. I've been told to roll a check when I gave a detailed, reasoned explanation of what I'm doing and then had my character fail.

>Why? I genuinely don't get it. Am I seriously playing this game wrong?
No, it's just that most 5e players like something different

Why would you need to roll something in that case? Isn't rolling just to determine something that has a chance of failing? This is the other thing I was told by him, that I make them roll too little.

I feel like a fucking grandpa right now.

It's fucking ridiculous ain't it?

At least you don't have a full party of guys like that. My players are all GURPS fags.

>Players describe their actions
>"Okay so-"
>They already are rolling a d20 even though I didn't even say shit.

>I was told by him, that I make them roll too little.
He probably spent a lot of time thinking about how to build his character to be good at something, and now instead of being good at that thing because he put points into it, he has to instead think about how he would actually accomplish it.

Terminology wasn't always consistent, especially in the early days.

Man, I wish that guy had done more art for TSR.

Sorry for shitting up your thread /OSR/ but this is so weird for me, realising that I am not playing the game that most /5e/ players do, this explain so many things.

So the retards telling their stories about how they rolled a nat 20 in a "investigation check" when observing an empty chest found a vorpal blade because of it are actually true.

Mind blown.

Have you watched Critical Role and other 5e streams? That's the way 5e is "supposed" to be played.

The nat 20 shit is real. Just watch any d&d stream like CR, they flip their shit every time a 20 is rolled like it isn't a one in fucking twenty chance of happening.

Adventures inc(or something like that) and Critical role, I've watched a few episodes.

I thought they were being silly on purpose. Because it is a stream they do not take the game seriously and add "so randumb" moments to please non D&D players.

It's not even a rule in 5e save for critical hits, it's just idiots parroting ebin memes and greentexts and dumb players copying them.

Most streams do overact in order to gain more interest. Then people see this and assume all good games are like that.
I have even seen players saying things like "the camera pans across my character's face" or "then the screen swipes left" when they describe their character's actions.
I assume there aren't any popular osr streams because there isn't as much of a show being put on.

What is the absolute limit for power in terms of racial abilities? Would a race having a spell built in be against the core principles of OSR?

Question, let's say I used to play lots of 2e. Why would I play a OSR instead of the actual game it is copying? What is the point of a retro clone if I can just play the original?

Gygax used to let people start as Balrogs before he got tired of /pfg/ tier trash.

As long as the character starts out weak and doesn't completely overshadow others, it's pretty fair game. I'd say a 1/day innate spell isn't too bad as long as you balance it out with slower xp progression or negative traits.

>in TSR D&D by RAW a natural 20 is only good because it's an automatic success on to-hit rolls
>somewhere along the line players start piling on stuff like "natural 20s deal double damage" et cetera
>that wasn't a TSR rule but was imported from somewhere and spread by the community, as attested to in White Dwarf
>Peter Adkinson, meme-loving fuck that he is, made the designers canonize it
>couple with the new "core mechanic" that made natural 20s a nigh-universal auto-success this made people fetishize the natural 20 effect
>this includes critical successes on skills (an optional rule) and critical successes on grappling (not a rule)
3e was a mistake

Go with your gut and fall back on racial classes if you must.

Depends. Right now the big advantage 1e, RC, and BECMI clones have over the originals is better organization. B/X and 2e clones really aren't an upgrade. In any case, most retroclones exist so that people can publish new material for old systems without paying licensing fees.

Stuff like labyrinth lord or lotfp are just tidied up/reworked versions of the originals that you can buy in print.
There are also some like DCC that are more unique.

>Why would I play a OSR instead of the actual game it is copying?
You wouldn't.
>What is the point of a retro clone if I can just play the original?
The point of the 1st wave is to publish modules without licensing fees.
~ the core rules weren't meant to sell, they were just published as a formality
The point of the 2nd wave is to get mad dosh for house-rules.
~ these cropped up when enterprising twats realized the 1st wave's rules sold
The 3rd wave isn't really OSR, it's just fantasy heartbreakers.
~ these preceded OSR, but have found their spirit animal - the regal lampreys

(cont.)
Except now you can probably get the older ones in print too so from a consumer standpoint it doesn't really matter.

So I've mostly got a grasp on the rules for B/X, just have two questions.

How do you keep track of time?

How do you handle things like grapples?

2e is fine and, if you're used to it and don't feel like changing, is probably what you should be using. OSR modules are compatible with it, that's the whole point.

>leomund's hut
>(also I do not think is such a big deal).
>Having an at will spell to create a dome of impenetrable force that no creature, object or spell can get through and lasts for 8 hours is not a big deal

> How do you keep track of time?
I have a printed sheet with check boxes for turns and for rounds and I mark the boxes where torches and the like will be extinguished.
> How do you handle things like grapples?
I hand wave special moves as as they are very specific to the situation. Most of the times I combine an attack roll with a STR/DEX check.

>Familiar was shot by a crossbow in the very beginning of a dungeon because they used to explore
Why would the party continue into the dungeon without first casting a new familiar? There's no reason ever to go anywhere without a familiar in 5e.

Its a dome. Enemies can dig a hole and enter, build around it sit or wait with a huge advantage.

>How do you keep track of time?
I draw 3 intersecting line and place a Reversi disk on one of the wedges.
Ever turn, I move the Reversi disk one wedge and flip it; I roll for a Wandering Monster if it's black.
I track ongoing effects with dice; when the stone enters a wedge, I spin down all the dice in the wedge.

Playing old school D&D is OSR.

They were against time, the dungeon is deep in the underdark... for a variety of reasons they had to do it in less than 2 days, and optimally in only 1.

Sure, but the party will always and forever have automatic 8 hour rest where ever they are. Nothing can disturb their sleep ever.

>Enemies can dig a hole and enter

There is also the problem of why are the orcs shooting their crossbows at a spider.
I know that is the situation was probably different then that but the thing is, a familiar can be just a regular spider and the vast majority of creatures should ignore it right?

What about all the other times when they're not racing against a clock and you don't decide to pull arrows out of darkness to hit their familiar?

Yeah, like an enemy is going to dig through solid stone to get under the dome. That spell is complete bullshit and makes the game bad.

Can they pry it up with a lever?

No. Nothing can affect the dome.

>What is the absolute limit for power in terms of racial abilities? Would a race having a spell built in be against the core principles of OSR?
considering that one of the BECMI Mystara supplements included rules for playing as a Sea Giant, I don't think there's truly an upper limit for how powerful a playable race can be in the OSR

as for spells, that probably depends on what kind of spell and when they unlock it

you sound like a douche

It's immobile.

Familiars can't open doors (So they are fucked), they cannot explore rooms with monsters without risking dying, they won't set or discover traps based on weight.

I mean familiars give you an advantage but you are making it seem like they completely breaks dungeons.

You don't really need to say anything in /5eg/ to hear them screech autistically, though.

Kill them all, Johnny.

I'm much more disappointed with cantrips like light or guidance.
Light completely gets rid of any torch management that still existed after almost everything got darkvision.
Guidance is almost +1d4 to everything out of combat.

>I mean familiars give you an advantage but you are making it seem like they completely breaks dungeons.
They do. It's a mobile vision bot for the wizard with a range of 100 feet. The wizard sees whatever the familiar sees. In effect the party has full vision of pretty much anything in advance barring extremely tight spaces where a rat or a spider can't go. Find familiar spell destroys any semblance of exploration or surprise the game might try to have.

You don't need to like the truth, but you can't change it.

He presented his points neutral as fuck, don't be so over reactive

not him but
>get mad dosh for house-rules
>enterprising twats
>found their spirit animal - the regal lampreys
>neutral as fuck
I'm not saying he's wrong, but I don't think i'd call that neutral.

Biased, maybe; prejudiced, no.

It's fair to call the trailblazers of the 2nd wave twats.
I didn't go as far as to call all 2nd wave designers enterprising, but come to think of it that sounds right.

I think what they're saying is 5e doesn't incentivize you to play that way to the same extent, not that you can't play it that way.

5e is "everyone's second favorite edition" for a reason: it was designed to be capable of weakly imitating any other edition for mass appeal to re-unify the player base.

>the only complain I've heard is from the 5e/PF veteran who was getting frustrated when I told him that no when he wanted to resolve the puzzle using an intelligence check, wtf, what is the point of the game if you use your fucking sheet to resolve stuff like that.
If you want to placate him make int rolls give a hint. That way he's still gotta solve it but he feels vindicated for playing a smart character.

They are, but lots of people enjoy watching it and try to replicate it at their own game. Some people were introduced to the hobby entirely this way and have no idea it's not normal.

I've met players like this. Sometimes they even watch to "see" scenes none of the characters are even in. It baffles me.

Seriously though fuck those people.

That's a really great improvised clock.

>I've met players like this. Sometimes they even watch to "see" scenes none of the characters are even in. It baffles me.

*want to see scenes
I am the best typist

it's not the truth though, it has elements of the truth, but it leaves out stuff to fit your angle

that was not neutral at all, he was pretending to be neutral but in fact attacking people, which is a disgusting thing to do, if you're going to insult people do it openly

That's really just semantics.
I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that the other guy had a right to be upset about it.

>that wasn't a TSR rule
It appears in 2e as an optional rule, together with the critical miss shenanigans.

>no animalistic monster tunnels naturally
>no intelligent monsters go and get their pickaxes to get at the squishy prey inside.
It's strong, but it's not invulnerable.

Let me guess, they want to see what the "bad guy" is up to even though their characters wouldn't know?

You don't need to cast out snakes (sometimes it helps), but you do need to recognize them. Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

You ain't gotta guess, you know already.

Leomund's is a death sentence if discovered in a megadungeon. All 85 kobolds that live on level one are going to trap you in there like Caesar at Alesia.

I'm making an OSR campaign/adventure involving a dungeon complex, in two time periods separated by a thousand years. One in its prime, another decayed and hollow. Something left in the latter era wan't you to go back and do something, to some people, for reasons. It's really fun adapting this dungeon map I found for free to my purposes. Any thoughts on time travel and s&s osr?

What does it actually look like from the outside? Detect Magic reveals it? Can it be easily magically disguised? Can you see through it? I don't have that book, but I'm curious.

It's any opaque color from the outside but is transparent from the inside.

Make the past the shitty one.

Since the Elf has "full spellcasting as a Magic-User" built in I don't see why one spell would be bad, as long as it corresponds roughly to the power level of Magic-Users of the same level. I could even see the hypothetical class' single spell improving faster than M-U casting ability after a certain point, since the latter gain more than one spell per level after awhile.

I'd avoid letting the class cast the spell at will, giving out high-level spells at low levels, and not having the innate spell improve as the class gains levels (which would make the ability best at low levels and then increasingly obsolete).

Seems kind of anti-climactic and unrewarding. How is this a good idea?

YET ANOTHER reason that 2e isn't OSR :^)